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2017/04/27 17:37:18
Subject: Re:Warhammer 40,000 new edition announced & new site ; Q&A 17;15 Monday 24th
JimOnMars wrote: The orks has a sad. Assaulting gunlines now got much harder, as the front bubblewrap units can fall back and leave the entire ork force open for annihilation. I guess the 8e honeymoon is now over.
Isn't it only a turn after the charge though? If so, you should have a turn to wail on them for a bit, and then shoot them when they try to retreat.
Well you should of killed them faster im fine with assault lines not having assault protection anymore. and besides its possible you might be able to attempt to catch them if they try and run off. we dont have the full rules.
Yes, we will kill their vanguard with our main force, but then our main force is eliminated, leaving their main force untouched.
Depending on the rules.
Edit: Having said that, i has a think. What if we attack their front liners with a tiny force of our own? then both vanguards die, but leaving our main force ready to assault theirs.
Depending on the rules.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/27 17:40:11
2017/04/27 17:43:08
Subject: Re:Warhammer 40,000 new edition announced & new site ; Q&A 17;15 Monday 24th
Edit: Having said that, i has a think. What if we attack their front liners with a tiny force of our own? then both vanguards die, but leaving our main force ready to assault theirs.
Depending on the rules.
You've described bubble wrap as it exists and has existsed for just about ever.
The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.
2017/04/27 17:43:54
Subject: Warhammer 40,000 new edition announced & new site ; Q&A 17;15 Monday 24th
Azreal13 wrote: Thing is with random run, weapons ranges are already (and look to continue to be) sufficiently long on even modest weapons that when played on a 6x4 the table feels small.
If you introduce a fixed run at Mx2, Marines would be able to deploy 12" on, run 12" turn 1 and then be able to reach out and touch anything opposite them all he way to the back of the table and have a huge bubble of the opposing deployment zone under threat, simply with Bolters.
They can already almost do this at every attempt. Random run does at least mean it isn't every attempt.
Now, I'm well aware Tac Marines aren't the most threatening yaddah yaddah, but please, anyone considering responding to this post, reply to the spirit of my point, rather than taking issue with my example.
At least it's all at once now, people with lots of footslogging infantry units might want to pick up something appropriate to represent a "Ran" marker for ease of bookkeeping in the shooting phase!
Only if "run" equaled "double." I would have proposed a flat +3 inches for running. Much simpler and more reliable.
The best system I've played (and I think Infinity is similar? Or might be another game I've had superficial contact with) is Guild Ball, where each unit's Move is two numbers, a jog and a sprint. Eliminates random and dice rolls, and allows for some extra granularity. Big thing that's slow off the mark but goes like a train once moving? Lower jog, higher sprint. Small light thing that gets up to full speed quick? High jog but sprint not much higher. Greased weasel? High both, etc..
Wow, that's actually a great idea. Like, 6" jog 10" sprint for typical infantry? Sounds good.
But anyone worried about the orks, don't worry. If they take inspiration from the destruction factions of AoS then they'll be really fast and hit like a tonne of bricks. Even night goblins are lethal when used right.
2017/04/27 17:49:08
Subject: Warhammer 40,000 new edition announced & new site ; Q&A 17;15 Monday 24th
Pretty much. GB makes you spend a point of influence to sprint instead of a jog (and a model can only make one advance of any type per activation under normal circumstance) but forfeiting shooting would be a more than adequate cost in 40K.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Azreal13 wrote: Thing is with random run, weapons ranges are already (and look to continue to be) sufficiently long on even modest weapons that when played on a 6x4 the table feels small.
If you introduce a fixed run at Mx2, Marines would be able to deploy 12" on, run 12" turn 1 and then be able to reach out and touch anything opposite them all he way to the back of the table and have a huge bubble of the opposing deployment zone under threat, simply with Bolters.
They can already almost do this at every attempt. Random run does at least mean it isn't every attempt.
Now, I'm well aware Tac Marines aren't the most threatening yaddah yaddah, but please, anyone considering responding to this post, reply to the spirit of my point, rather than taking issue with my example.
At least it's all at once now, people with lots of footslogging infantry units might want to pick up something appropriate to represent a "Ran" marker for ease of bookkeeping in the shooting phase!
Only if "run" equaled "double." I would have proposed a flat +3 inches for running. Much simpler and more reliable.
The best system I've played (and I think Infinity is similar? Or might be another game I've had superficial contact with) is Guild Ball, where each unit's Move is two numbers, a jog and a sprint. Eliminates random and dice rolls, and allows for some extra granularity. Big thing that's slow off the mark but goes like a train once moving? Lower jog, higher sprint. Small light thing that gets up to full speed quick? High jog but sprint not much higher. Greased weasel? High both, etc..
Wow, that's actually a great idea. Like, 6" jog 10" sprint for typical infantry? Sounds good.
But anyone worried about the orks, don't worry. If they take inspiration from the destruction factions of AoS then they'll be really fast and hit like a tonne of bricks. Even night goblins are lethal when used right.
That is oddly enough one of my worries about what will become of the orks, i like my orks shooty and dislike the one dimensional close combat horde.
2017/04/27 17:51:48
Subject: Warhammer 40,000 new edition announced & new site ; Q&A 17;15 Monday 24th
Azreal13 wrote: Thing is with random run, weapons ranges are already (and look to continue to be) sufficiently long on even modest weapons that when played on a 6x4 the table feels small.
If you introduce a fixed run at Mx2, Marines would be able to deploy 12" on, run 12" turn 1 and then be able to reach out and touch anything opposite them all he way to the back of the table and have a huge bubble of the opposing deployment zone under threat, simply with Bolters.
They can already almost do this at every attempt. Random run does at least mean it isn't every attempt.
Now, I'm well aware Tac Marines aren't the most threatening yaddah yaddah, but please, anyone considering responding to this post, reply to the spirit of my point, rather than taking issue with my example.
At least it's all at once now, people with lots of footslogging infantry units might want to pick up something appropriate to represent a "Ran" marker for ease of bookkeeping in the shooting phase!
Only if "run" equaled "double." I would have proposed a flat +3 inches for running. Much simpler and more reliable.
The best system I've played (and I think Infinity is similar? Or might be another game I've had superficial contact with) is Guild Ball, where each unit's Move is two numbers, a jog and a sprint. Eliminates random and dice rolls, and allows for some extra granularity. Big thing that's slow off the mark but goes like a train once moving? Lower jog, higher sprint. Small light thing that gets up to full speed quick? High jog but sprint not much higher. Greased weasel? High both, etc..
Wow, that's actually a great idea. Like, 6" jog 10" sprint for typical infantry? Sounds good.
But anyone worried about the orks, don't worry. If they take inspiration from the destruction factions of AoS then they'll be really fast and hit like a tonne of bricks. Even night goblins are lethal when used right.
That is oddly enough one of my worries about what will become of the orks, i like my orks shooty and dislike the one dimensional close combat horde.
Well I believe you would need to go back to 2nd edition my friend. Orks have been a horde assault element for a LONG time now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/27 17:52:01
Azreal13 wrote: Thing is with random run, weapons ranges are already (and look to continue to be) sufficiently long on even modest weapons that when played on a 6x4 the table feels small.
If you introduce a fixed run at Mx2, Marines would be able to deploy 12" on, run 12" turn 1 and then be able to reach out and touch anything opposite them all he way to the back of the table and have a huge bubble of the opposing deployment zone under threat, simply with Bolters.
They can already almost do this at every attempt. Random run does at least mean it isn't every attempt.
Now, I'm well aware Tac Marines aren't the most threatening yaddah yaddah, but please, anyone considering responding to this post, reply to the spirit of my point, rather than taking issue with my example.
At least it's all at once now, people with lots of footslogging infantry units might want to pick up something appropriate to represent a "Ran" marker for ease of bookkeeping in the shooting phase!
Only if "run" equaled "double." I would have proposed a flat +3 inches for running. Much simpler and more reliable.
The best system I've played (and I think Infinity is similar? Or might be another game I've had superficial contact with) is Guild Ball, where each unit's Move is two numbers, a jog and a sprint. Eliminates random and dice rolls, and allows for some extra granularity. Big thing that's slow off the mark but goes like a train once moving? Lower jog, higher sprint. Small light thing that gets up to full speed quick? High jog but sprint not much higher. Greased weasel? High both, etc..
Wow, that's actually a great idea. Like, 6" jog 10" sprint for typical infantry? Sounds good.
But anyone worried about the orks, don't worry. If they take inspiration from the destruction factions of AoS then they'll be really fast and hit like a tonne of bricks. Even night goblins are lethal when used right.
That is oddly enough one of my worries about what will become of the orks, i like my orks shooty and dislike the one dimensional close combat horde.
Well I believe you would need to go back to 2nd edition my friend. Orks have been a horde assault element for a LONG time now.
I strongly remember ork gunlines in both 5th and 6th with lots of lootas and shoota armed boys.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/27 17:56:29
2017/04/27 18:00:24
Subject: Re:Warhammer 40,000 new edition announced & new site ; Q&A 17;15 Monday 24th
Future War Cultist wrote: And in another thread we created a 'cult of dakka' faction. I don't like lumping armies into one playstyle. Variety is the spice of life after all.
Exactly!
2017/04/27 18:12:48
Subject: Re:Warhammer 40,000 new edition announced & new site ; Q&A 17;15 Monday 24th
Future War Cultist wrote: And in another thread we created a 'cult of dakka' faction. I don't like lumping armies into one playstyle. Variety is the spice of life after all.
Exactly!
I am sure lootas, dakka jets, shoota boyz and flash gits will still be very shooty.
Oh nice. In the current edition if you didn't kill the unit right away your melee guys at least had the privilege of not being torn to shreads during the enemy's shooting phase. Seems like 8th gonna be more in the lines of "Oh wow, you've somehow managed to not get your melee guys horribly murdered and actually make it into CQC? Well, good for you. Let me just stuff their faces with my army's worth of gunfire at point blank range anyway. I mean surely you weren't expecting them to kill anything more than 1 layer of bubble wrap, were you?" I mean melee in 7th was far from great but if alternating activation is also gonna be a thing, then melee in 8th is gonna be just a flaming pile of trash.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/27 18:26:47
2017/04/27 18:28:44
Subject: Re:Warhammer 40,000 new edition announced & new site ; Q&A 17;15 Monday 24th
Liberal_Perturabo wrote: Oh nice.
In the current edition if you didn't kill the unit right away your melee guys at least had the privilege of not being torn to shreads during the enemy's shooting phase. Seems like 8th gonna be more in the lines of "Oh wow, you've somehow managed to not get your melee guys horribly murdered and actually make it into CQC?
Well, good for you. Let me just stuff their faces with my army's worth of gunfire at point blank range anyway. I mean surely you weren't expecting them to kill anything more than 1 layer of bubble wrap, were you?"
I mean melee in 7th was far from great but if alternating activation is also gonna be a thing, then melee in 8th is gonna be just a flaming pile of trash.
Bubble wrap had to be dealt with last edition, and it will need to be dealt with this edition too. Just the manner with which its dealt will change.
The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.
2017/04/27 18:35:39
Subject: Re:Warhammer 40,000 new edition announced & new site ; Q&A 17;15 Monday 24th
Liberal_Perturabo wrote: Oh nice.
In the current edition if you didn't kill the unit right away your melee guys at least had the privilege of not being torn to shreads during the enemy's shooting phase. Seems like 8th gonna be more in the lines of "Oh wow, you've somehow managed to not get your melee guys horribly murdered and actually make it into CQC?
Well, good for you. Let me just stuff their faces with my army's worth of gunfire at point blank range anyway. I mean surely you weren't expecting them to kill anything more than 1 layer of bubble wrap, were you?"
I mean melee in 7th was far from great but if alternating activation is also gonna be a thing, then melee in 8th is gonna be just a flaming pile of trash.
Bubble wrap had to be dealt with last edition, and it will need to be dealt with this edition too. Just the manner with which its dealt will change.
That's not the point though. In the current edition you can't forcefully expose enemy melee units to your gunfire.
2017/04/27 18:39:21
Subject: Warhammer 40,000 new edition announced & new site ; Q&A 17;15 Monday 24th
You can't guarantee that the unit you're attacking won't melt away or leg it either, leaving you just as exposed.
At least with the new system you can reasonably expect this is going to happen regardless.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Liberal_Perturabo wrote: Oh nice.
In the current edition if you didn't kill the unit right away your melee guys at least had the privilege of not being torn to shreads during the enemy's shooting phase. Seems like 8th gonna be more in the lines of "Oh wow, you've somehow managed to not get your melee guys horribly murdered and actually make it into CQC?
Well, good for you. Let me just stuff their faces with my army's worth of gunfire at point blank range anyway. I mean surely you weren't expecting them to kill anything more than 1 layer of bubble wrap, were you?"
I mean melee in 7th was far from great but if alternating activation is also gonna be a thing, then melee in 8th is gonna be just a flaming pile of trash.
Bubble wrap had to be dealt with last edition, and it will need to be dealt with this edition too. Just the manner with which its dealt will change.
That's not the point though. In the current edition you can't forcefully expose enemy melee units to your gunfire.
Yes you can; hit and run, our weapons are useless and using calgar allow you to do this as it stands. Its tactical and interesting; it will be the same in 8th
The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.
2017/04/27 18:43:29
Subject: Re:Warhammer 40,000 new edition announced & new site ; Q&A 17;15 Monday 24th
This is why I think Bolt Action has it right. Units in cc fight until one is wiped out. It's clean and makes cc very decisive. But I can't judge just yet because we don't know the full picture yet.
2017/04/27 18:49:52
Subject: Warhammer 40,000 new edition announced & new site ; Q&A 17;15 Monday 24th
Disengaging in exchange for pinning is a good, clean rule and a good development. A truly amazing rule would be one that gave the assaulting troops some kind of benny in the following turn as well - so once you broke into the enemy line it was harder to stop you with gun fire, but not impossible. GW assault phase movement has always had issues, and this is a solid development. If they also eliminated having to make pile in moves all the time that would be great. It amuses me to see GW patting themselves on the back for allowing you to make your run roll during the movement phase, something just about everyone who cared about game length thought of or house ruled. I think fall back works well with fast assaults, even turn one. Yes, you get hit, but it isn't the end of the world. The long slog to a win or die assault isn't as interesting as a series of assaults.
2017/04/27 18:51:07
Subject: Warhammer 40,000 new edition announced & new site ; Q&A 17;15 Monday 24th
The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.
2017/04/27 18:51:29
Subject: Warhammer 40,000 new edition announced & new site ; Q&A 17;15 Monday 24th
kestral wrote: Disengaging in exchange for pinning is a good, clean rule and a good development. A truly amazing rule would be one that gave the assaulting troops some kind of benny in the following turn as well - so once you broke into the enemy line it was harder to stop you with gun fire, but not impossible. GW assault phase movement has always had issues, and this is a solid development. If they also eliminated having to make pile in moves all the time that would be great. It amuses me to see GW patting themselves on the back for allowing you to make your run roll during the movement phase, something just about everyone who cared about game length thought of or house ruled. I think fall back works well with fast assaults, even turn one. Yes, you get hit, but it isn't the end of the world. The long slog to a win or die assault isn't as interesting as a series of assaults.
im 99% sure there will be a rule to allow you to attempt to catch and or wipe out the enemy as they run away.
Anyone who has used the 7ed Hit & Run used the tactic of being in assault and in your opponent's turn "hit & run" out of combat, so that in your turn you can shoot at the same unit (possible re-assault).
Given what we know now, looks like just about every unit can utilize that tactic, except when you leave combat you're effectively "pinned" (unless you have a rule that override that, like 8th ed H&R).
Right?
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2017/04/27 18:56:20
Subject: Re:Warhammer 40,000 new edition announced & new site ; Q&A 17;15 Monday 24th
Future War Cultist wrote: This is why I think Bolt Action has it right. Units in cc fight until one is wiped out. It's clean and makes cc very decisive. But I can't judge just yet because we don't know the full picture yet.
I am not positive but I think assaults resolve much quicker in that game as well. In 40k doing this for as frequent as assaults are, another thing not super common in bolt action, and you could be spending a lot of time in one phase.
Liberal_Perturabo wrote: Oh nice.
In the current edition if you didn't kill the unit right away your melee guys at least had the privilege of not being torn to shreads during the enemy's shooting phase. Seems like 8th gonna be more in the lines of "Oh wow, you've somehow managed to not get your melee guys horribly murdered and actually make it into CQC?
Well, good for you. Let me just stuff their faces with my army's worth of gunfire at point blank range anyway. I mean surely you weren't expecting them to kill anything more than 1 layer of bubble wrap, were you?"
I mean melee in 7th was far from great but if alternating activation is also gonna be a thing, then melee in 8th is gonna be just a flaming pile of trash.
Bubble wrap had to be dealt with last edition, and it will need to be dealt with this edition too. Just the manner with which its dealt will change.
That's not the point though. In the current edition you can't forcefully expose enemy melee units to your gunfire.
Yes you can; hit and run, our weapons are useless and using calgar allow you to do this as it stands. Its tactical and interesting; it will be the same in 8th
Hit&Run is not that common and usually only melee units have it - not the units you'd typically use to bubble wrap your forces or slow down the enemy. Also you can still fail it, although the possibilities vary from unit to unit.
Our weapons are useless would normally come in play vs armor or T7 at the very least, so its much more rare than Hit&Run.
Allowing everyone to do this (especially extremely shooty armies) is simply a bad mechanic.
2017/04/27 19:02:50
Subject: Warhammer 40,000 new edition announced & new site ; Q&A 17;15 Monday 24th
Future War Cultist wrote: This is why I think Bolt Action has it right. Units in cc fight until one is wiped out. It's clean and makes cc very decisive. .
That only works if you don't have combats where neither side can actually hurt the other, as happens all too often in 40K.
2017/04/27 19:04:23
Subject: Warhammer 40,000 new edition announced & new site ; Q&A 17;15 Monday 24th
kestral wrote: Disengaging in exchange for pinning is a good, clean rule and a good development. A truly amazing rule would be one that gave the assaulting troops some kind of benny in the following turn as well - so once you broke into the enemy line it was harder to stop you with gun fire, but not impossible. GW assault phase movement has always had issues, and this is a solid development. If they also eliminated having to make pile in moves all the time that would be great. It amuses me to see GW patting themselves on the back for allowing you to make your run roll during the movement phase, something just about everyone who cared about game length thought of or house ruled. I think fall back works well with fast assaults, even turn one. Yes, you get hit, but it isn't the end of the world. The long slog to a win or die assault isn't as interesting as a series of assaults.
im 99% sure there will be a rule to allow you to attempt to catch and or wipe out the enemy as they run away.
The issue is not in the ability to kill the enemy unit. If you are willing to move them out of combat chances are they would be dead in the next round of melee anyway. This will however vastly decrease the survivability of close combat units.
2017/04/27 19:06:36
Subject: Re:Warhammer 40,000 new edition announced & new site ; Q&A 17;15 Monday 24th
Begin to hear rumors about the launch of 8th edition in the comments section Sergio gives specific dates:
" Warhammer 40k 8th enters preorder on June 3 goes on sale on June 17 , the box for two typical players of all editions will be Ultramarines (new rescaled ) vs death guard ."
There are still plenty of opportunities for rules changed to Assault:
Are you still limited to charging only a unit you shot?
Are you limited to strait line movement when you charge?
Can you draw units into close combat like in AOS using your pile-in move?
2017/04/27 19:17:57
Subject: Warhammer 40,000 new edition announced & new site ; Q&A 17;15 Monday 24th
im fine with assault lines not having assault protection anymore. and besides its possible you might be able to attempt to catch them if they try and run off. we dont have the full rules. 
