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SeanDrake wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:
8th needs to see an end to Overwatch! Overwatch was at best a mechanic to introduce more interaction between players in the assault phase and at worst (and more realistically) a way to punish CC armies. Alternate activation takes care of the former argument now, let's hope CC doesn't remain GW's whipping boy.

I'm quite sure that we are not going to see Overwatch in 8th. They will probably import the charge mechanics of AOS, which means that a charge does not have a target.
In AOS your roll 2d6 for move and then you can go toward any enemy unit, even more than one. If you can get a model within half an inch of an unit, then you have started a melee. Overwatch in all this will hardly be present, except as a special rule for some models. AOS has quite a lot of those (razordons, handguneers, maidens of the everqueen etc), and they Overwatch when a model ends a charge move withing 3 inches of the unit.

If with a 2d6 move you can't reach any enemy unit, the charge fails and you don't move.

If there is no overwatch then given the changes all ready mentioned(assualt out of any vehicle, charger hits 1st, abysmal fall back rule, AoS crappy morale system,less chance to bypass/reduce saves) shooting armies need.not bother turning up for 8th.

Nonsense posts like this are my favorite. Who needs to actually know small things like the rules and points? Totally broken already.

SeanDrake wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:
8th needs to see an end to Overwatch! Overwatch was at best a mechanic to introduce more interaction between players in the assault phase and at worst (and more realistically) a way to punish CC armies. Alternate activation takes care of the former argument now, let's hope CC doesn't remain GW's whipping boy.

I'm quite sure that we are not going to see Overwatch in 8th. They will probably import the charge mechanics of AOS, which means that a charge does not have a target.
In AOS your roll 2d6 for move and then you can go toward any enemy unit, even more than one. If you can get a model within half an inch of an unit, then you have started a melee. Overwatch in all this will hardly be present, except as a special rule for some models. AOS has quite a lot of those (razordons, handguneers, maidens of the everqueen etc), and they Overwatch when a model ends a charge move withing 3 inches of the unit.

If with a 2d6 move you can't reach any enemy unit, the charge fails and you don't move.

If there is no overwatch then given the changes all ready mentioned(assualt out of any vehicle, charger hits 1st, abysmal fall back rule, AoS crappy morale system,less chance to bypass/reduce saves) shooting armies need.not bother turning up for 8th.

Glad you were able to glean that seeing less than a fifth of the games rules in vague previews; want me to take your army off your hands so that you don't have to bother burning it yourself?

SeanDrake wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:
8th needs to see an end to Overwatch! Overwatch was at best a mechanic to introduce more interaction between players in the assault phase and at worst (and more realistically) a way to punish CC armies. Alternate activation takes care of the former argument now, let's hope CC doesn't remain GW's whipping boy.

I'm quite sure that we are not going to see Overwatch in 8th. They will probably import the charge mechanics of AOS, which means that a charge does not have a target.
In AOS your roll 2d6 for move and then you can go toward any enemy unit, even more than one. If you can get a model within half an inch of an unit, then you have started a melee. Overwatch in all this will hardly be present, except as a special rule for some models. AOS has quite a lot of those (razordons, handguneers, maidens of the everqueen etc), and they Overwatch when a model ends a charge move withing 3 inches of the unit.

If with a 2d6 move you can't reach any enemy unit, the charge fails and you don't move.

If there is no overwatch then given the changes all ready mentioned(assualt out of any vehicle, charger hits 1st, abysmal fall back rule, AoS crappy morale system,less chance to bypass/reduce saves) shooting armies need.not bother turning up for 8th.

Where was it confirmed that you can charge out of any vehicle? Also considering that many people consider shooting quite strong in Age of Sigmar, I don't see much of a problem here.

 nintura wrote:


If a bolter is -0 to save, then a heavy bolter would be -1. I imagine Inferno Bolts would be -2 given they were AP 3 and Heavy Bolters were AP 4.

You could be right. Seems strong on the surface.

They have a save of a 5+ against lascannons. Exactly what they had before.

I suppose. It feels scary though.

Vorian wrote:

SeanDrake wrote:

If there is no overwatch then given the changes all ready mentioned(assualt out of any vehicle, charger hits 1st, abysmal fall back rule, AoS crappy morale system,less chance to bypass/reduce saves) shooting armies need.not bother turning up for 8th.

Nonsense posts like this are my favorite. Who needs to actually know small things like the rules and points? Totally broken already.

Especially when compared to all the posts saying the new fall back rules makes CC armies redundant! Guess that makes all armies broken

I am happy with the rules previews so far, it seems that they will do it right (or at least try) this time.

1. Give models a chance to save by reducing the ap of weapons (even better if they make the cover save a modifier to the armour save or the balistic skill)

2. Make leadership tests apply to all and probably nerf rules such as fearless and ATSKNF

3. The free fall back move iplies that they will let us charge from deep strike, transports and reserves

4. removed templates and running from shooting phase which made the game take longer

5. Made vehicles and MCs more thematic with the new damage tables


Lets wait and see for the rest.

SeanDrake wrote:


If there is no overwatch then given the changes all ready mentioned(assualt out of any vehicle, charger hits 1st, abysmal fall back rule, AoS crappy morale system,less chance to bypass/reduce saves) shooting armies need.not bother turning up for 8th.

Success! We have covered the spectrum from shooting is totally broken to CC is totally broken. Good job Dakka!

It's SeanDrake. His job is to see the negative in every positive, to extrapolate and assume the worst, to judge the whole based on incomplete information and to never, ever give the benefit of a doubt. At least I assume it's his job or I don't know how he manages to keep it up!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Psychic Phase!

- Basically it's the same as AoS, beat the Warp Charge cost on 2D6.
- Chance to unbind within 24"
- Mortal wounds just like in AoS, confirmed!
- Also invulnerable saves!
- Example is Smite, WC5, D3 mortal wounds on unit within 18", D6 if roll is 10 or more
- Perils of the Warp is still in, no details
- tomorrow's article covers Warzones, Sunday's will be shooting

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/28/new-warhammer-40000-psychic-phase/

 AndrewGPaul wrote:


On top of that, there was a "critical damage" mechanic which allowed for "golden bb" lucky shots killing the vehicle in one hit. Importantly for this discussion, it also suggested applying this rule to anything with multiple Wounds; Tyranid Carnifexes, Space Marine Captains, ...

My point being, if some vehicles have a "your shot might penetrate the vehicle's power plant. Roll a dice: on a 6 the vehicle is destroyed", but then so might a Carnifex have "your shot penetrated the beast's brain ...".
Or it might not, and this entire tangent has been based on a hoax. I'll worry about that sort of thing when I see it.

I'd like to see some kind of crit mechanic, mostly because I like neither the current instant death system in 40K nor the mortal wounds system in AoS. Maybe high strength weapons have a chance of dealing additional dmg on a roll of six?

Edit: Darn, mortal wounds are in. I like the simpler psychic phase though.

Hmmm... I hope they don't go full Mortal Wound spam. Warhammer40k has many options to take down high save models, so Mortal Wounds should remain something very very rare here.

Invul saves are still in too, it seems. So Rubric Marines might get them after all.

 Not-not-kenny wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:


On top of that, there was a "critical damage" mechanic which allowed for "golden bb" lucky shots killing the vehicle in one hit. Importantly for this discussion, it also suggested applying this rule to anything with multiple Wounds; Tyranid Carnifexes, Space Marine Captains, ...

My point being, if some vehicles have a "your shot might penetrate the vehicle's power plant. Roll a dice: on a 6 the vehicle is destroyed", but then so might a Carnifex have "your shot penetrated the beast's brain ...".
Or it might not, and this entire tangent has been based on a hoax. I'll worry about that sort of thing when I see it.

I'd like to see some kind of crit mechanic, mostly because I like neither the current instant death system in 40K nor the mortal wounds system in AoS. Maybe high strength weapons have a chance of dealing additional dmg on a roll of six?

Unfortunately for you but rather well timed, Mortal Wounds are in.

Wow! And Mortal Wounds are a thing. That's why there's no D-weapons. The Mortal Wound mechanic covers it.

Every faction will have its own psychic lore with a range of thematic powers.

So... Tau Psykers confirmed?

Well, not a deal breaker in most games, but mortal wounds is something that definitely does not scale well when you want to play very small games. Not impossible, just takes some extra tweaking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:

Every faction will have its own psychic lore with a range of thematic powers.

So... Tau Psykers confirmed?

Kroot shamans...?

 Mymearan wrote:
It's SeanDrake. His job is to see the negative in every positive, to extrapolate and assume the worst, to judge the whole based on incomplete information and to never, ever give the benefit of a doubt. At least I assume it's his job or I don't know how he manages to keep it up!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Psychic Phase!

- Basically it's the same as AoS, beat the Warp Charge cost on 2D6.

I knew it!

Daedalus81 wrote:
Success! We have covered the spectrum from shooting is totally broken to CC is totally broken. Good job Dakka!

That is a certainty, that is, until the rules are officially released and then all bets are off.

My gaming group always tries to modify the rules immediately "out of the box".
I demanded/begged/cajoled a freeze on house rules until we play three full games straight-up.
It is surprising how often the light bulb goes off and you think "So that is why they did that strange rule/wording/condition.".

I will be more than happy to take the boots to GW (what little I can) only after those couple games are done.
It may require more due to the 3 methods of play... (9 games??).
It is impossible (or at least difficult to do thoroughly) to evaluate all these bits and pieces until we see them interact as a whole.
We could still be assuming some "core" mechanics are at play that may no longer be there.

Despite the pointing out of negativity, what IS unanimous is that people are quite excited about this release.
I can barely keep up with this 5 or more pages posted a day.

I would dare say it may be the most exciting release to-date.

WarhammerCommunity wrote:In the new system, the Psychic phase has been re-worked from the ground up.

I lol-d hard. Yeah, it's been thoroughly reworked. Here's a fictional dialogue:

-"Guys, you want a new system in the design of which you can participate? It's for the fans after all!"
-"Yeah, we'd really love to! We have alot of suggestions, both on fixing the current one and on introducing completely new system and mechanics..."
-Nah, don't bother. Just choose 2 or three small things to tweak in AoS and we're done" (dusting off hands)

"Updated Warzones"

Ah, so we are getting 40K versions of AoS's Realms.

Goody.

 Not-not-kenny wrote:
Well, not a deal breaker in most games, but mortal wounds is something that definitely does not scale well when you want to play very small games. Not impossible, just takes some extra tweaking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:

Every faction will have its own psychic lore with a range of thematic powers.

So... Tau Psykers confirmed?

Kroot shamans...?

if kroot don't become there own subfaction

Given that we're moving to AoS-style psychic powers, I'll wager that Tzeentch daemons and Thousand Sons will work very similarly to how Disciples of Tzeentch work in AoS. It'll be dead-easy for these kinds of armies to get bonuses to cast and block psychic powers, with casting basically being automatic for stuff like Magnus and the Lord of Change.

It DOES worry me a little that each army is getting its own lore, since Tzeentch-specific powers in 40K have traditionally sucked.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
"Updated Warzones"

Ah, so we are getting 40K versions of AoS's Realms.

Goody.

So? It's something for people to use in Narrative games.

The game needs overwatch. It makes a lot of sense, and it's one of the few rules that I support 100%.

Yes, if you're getting charged, and drawing your sword, you're obviously hurried and maybe even panicked, but getting a pistol shot off, with a negative modifier, is very fair and reasonable in my book.

Even if charged from the flank or rear, troops in a lose formation can turn instantly and still fire. If you were packed into a 17th century style formation, I could see the argument against allowing overwatch if charged, but loose military formations, like in 40k, should have overwatch, and hopefully 360 degree line of sight is still there.

 Galas wrote:

Every faction will have its own psychic lore with a range of thematic powers.

So... Tau Psykers confirmed?

I really hope this means that Necron C'tan will get a power list that work like Psychics but with different limitations. The stupid table they have right now is horrible.

"Re-worked"....just copy pasta'd.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
"Updated Warzones"

Ah, so we are getting 40K versions of AoS's Realms.

Goody.

Wow I have literally no idea whether you're being sarcastic or not.

Maybe the 8E version of "Eternal Warrior" will allow the model to make saves vs. "Mortal Wounds"?

I like that you can't cast all your powers from one dude anymore.

Allows for (or should I say forces) more tactical placement of your psykers.

They aren't all just interchangeable psychic machine guns, they each have their own powers and need to be deployed and used more thoughtfully.

Neato!

 Alpharius wrote:
Maybe the 8E version of "Eternal Warrior" will allow the model to make saves vs. "Mortal Wounds"?

Sounds plausible to me. I wonder if there will be a rule of 1 as well...a ton of 1K Sons sorcerers spamming Smite would be quite deadly to tanks or anything else for that matter.

 Alpharius wrote:
Maybe the 8E version of "Eternal Warrior" will allow the model to make saves vs. "Mortal Wounds"?

It's possible Feel No Pain/Reanimation Protocols will give a save as well. Nurgle Daemons and Phoenix Guard have the AoS version of FNP and it lets you ignore MWs.