Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

the Indominus Crusade

 Asmodai wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Now that pistols can be fired in close combat are plasma pistols finally priced appropriately? Especially if they can still be used as a close combat weapon?

Depends a lot on their strength, AP modifier and points cost - which are all unknown. We also don't know if there's a Gets Hot rule in 8th, or how it would work if there is one.

If gets hot remains in 8th, Grav Pistols will probably be better than Plasma. But my BA are going to take Inferno Pistols a lot more. Commander Dante should be able to wreck face in CC.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Now that pistols can be fired in close combat are plasma pistols finally priced appropriately? Especially if they can still be used as a close combat weapon?

I did not expect the change to let you shoot while in cc. I've wanted pistols to be able to be used in cc for a while but this is a lot cleaner than what I had planned. I do hope that with this change pistols no longer give bonus cc attacks though. Makes no sense for holding a pistol to give you an extra swing with a power sword.

I do think that this makes a lot of pistols much better for their points. Plasma, grav, blast pistols, ect.

 jhnbrg wrote:
Hold on a little! If space marines in cover will be like terminators (2+ sv), how on earth are we going to take them out now? Going from 3+ to 2+ is a 100% increase in effectivness when going from 6+ to 5+ is only 20% (?) increase. Seems like 8th will be more about space marines than 30k is.

I err.. don't think your numbers are quite right? Or you're not expressing yourself clearly, one or the other.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Now that pistols can be fired in close combat are plasma pistols finally priced appropriately? Especially if they can still be used as a close combat weapon?

I did not expect the change to let you shoot while in cc. I've wanted pistols to be able to be used in cc for a while but this is a lot cleaner than what I had planned. I do hope that with this change pistols no longer give bonus cc attacks though. Makes no sense for holding a pistol to give you an extra swing with a power sword.

I do think that this makes a lot of pistols much better for their points. Plasma, grav, blast pistols, ect.

I agree that they shouldn't add an additional attack. It was described as characters holstering a pistol and drawing a knife in the fluff rather than a character pistol-whipping someone. Even then, having a pistol just became a big boon.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:
Hold on a little! If space marines in cover will be like terminators (2+ sv), how on earth are we going to take them out now? Going from 3+ to 2+ is a 100% increase in effectivness when going from 6+ to 5+ is only 20% (?) increase. Seems like 8th will be more about space marines than 30k is.

I err.. don't think your numbers are quite right? Or you're not expressing yourself clearly, one or the other.

I guess he means that by increasing 3+ to 2+ you take half of the casualties you'd otherwise taken (1/6 dead vs. 1/3 dead) whereas in 6+ -> 5+ it's 5/6 dead vs. 4/6 dead.

 jhnbrg wrote:
Hold on a little! If space marines in cover will be like terminators (2+ sv), how on earth are we going to take them out now? Going from 3+ to 2+ is a 100% increase in effectivness when going from 6+ to 5+ is only 20% (?) increase. Seems like 8th will be more about space marines than 30k is.

That's why you have save modifiers.

Using a pistol in CC should make the owning model forego all of their attacks.

 Sherrypie wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:
Hold on a little! If space marines in cover will be like terminators (2+ sv), how on earth are we going to take them out now? Going from 3+ to 2+ is a 100% increase in effectivness when going from 6+ to 5+ is only 20% (?) increase. Seems like 8th will be more about space marines than 30k is.

I err.. don't think your numbers are quite right? Or you're not expressing yourself clearly, one or the other.

I guess he means that by increasing 3+ to 2+ you take half of the casualties you'd otherwise taken (1/6 dead vs. 1/3 dead) whereas in 6+ -> 5+ it's 5/6 dead vs. 4/6 dead.

It still mitigates wounds by the same amount though. If your save is 6+ improved to 5+ you take exactly half as many wounds as you would have, just like if your save is increased from 3+ to 2+. Your baseline number of wounds expected is just lower in the first instance.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:
Hold on a little! If space marines in cover will be like terminators (2+ sv), how on earth are we going to take them out now? Going from 3+ to 2+ is a 100% increase in effectivness when going from 6+ to 5+ is only 20% (?) increase. Seems like 8th will be more about space marines than 30k is.

I err.. don't think your numbers are quite right? Or you're not expressing yourself clearly, one or the other.

A space marine in cover goes from 33% chance of failing to a 16% chance of failing. His resilience effectively doubles while in cover.
A 6+ save model goes from 83% chance of failing to a 66.7% chance of failing. Still the same increment (both are different by about 16%) but I do see where he's getting at.
However, marines are more expensive than 6+ save models and will probably have smaller squad sizes, so it balances out.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:
Hold on a little! If space marines in cover will be like terminators (2+ sv), how on earth are we going to take them out now? Going from 3+ to 2+ is a 100% increase in effectivness when going from 6+ to 5+ is only 20% (?) increase. Seems like 8th will be more about space marines than 30k is.

That's why you have save modifiers.

What if a Terminator is in cover but suffers a wound from a bolter? There's no negative save modifier, only a positive one. Suppose there's a rule that says armor saves can never be better than 2+?

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:
Haven't seen this posted (so forgive if it's been posted prior to page 124):

So a new Crusade and a new variant of Marine.
Sounds like fun.

I'm actually pretty cranky about his.

I'm all for the story moving forward, but this seems a little..... Unnecessary.

Yo dawg, I heard you like Space Marines, so I've put more Space Marines into your Marines, and they'll be the Spaciest Space Marines ever.

I'll try to keep an open mind, but that's my initial reaction.

Same...This was the moment that I realized I am not the market group they are going after.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:
Hold on a little! If space marines in cover will be like terminators (2+ sv), how on earth are we going to take them out now? Going from 3+ to 2+ is a 100% increase in effectivness when going from 6+ to 5+ is only 20% (?) increase. Seems like 8th will be more about space marines than 30k is.

I err.. don't think your numbers are quite right? Or you're not expressing yourself clearly, one or the other.

If you instead of faiing on 1 and 2 on a D6 fail on only 1, that is twice as good right?
If you fail your save on 1,2,3,4 and 5 but now "only" fail on 1,2,3and 4 that is only an increase of 20% or am doing something wrong? (its been a long labourus day)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:
Hold on a little! If space marines in cover will be like terminators (2+ sv), how on earth are we going to take them out now? Going from 3+ to 2+ is a 100% increase in effectivness when going from 6+ to 5+ is only 20% (?) increase. Seems like 8th will be more about space marines than 30k is.

That's why you have save modifiers.

But none of the basic infantry weapons have save mods!

You will need some pretty heavy stuff to shift those marines.

v0iddrgn wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:
Hold on a little! If space marines in cover will be like terminators (2+ sv), how on earth are we going to take them out now? Going from 3+ to 2+ is a 100% increase in effectivness when going from 6+ to 5+ is only 20% (?) increase. Seems like 8th will be more about space marines than 30k is.

That's why you have save modifiers.

What if a Terminator is in cover but suffers a wound from a bolter? There's no negative save modifier, only a positive one. Suppose there's a rule that says armor saves can never be better than 2+?

Well yeah, that's how its always been. I have not yet played a GW game where a save roll of a 1 always fails, regardless of modifiers.
That's how it was in WHFB; you can stack armor all you want, but if you roll a natural 1 its still a fail.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jhnbrg wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:
Hold on a little! If space marines in cover will be like terminators (2+ sv), how on earth are we going to take them out now? Going from 3+ to 2+ is a 100% increase in effectivness when going from 6+ to 5+ is only 20% (?) increase. Seems like 8th will be more about space marines than 30k is.

I err.. don't think your numbers are quite right? Or you're not expressing yourself clearly, one or the other.

If you instead of faiing on 1 and 2 on a D6 fail on only 1, that is twice as good right?
If you fail your save on 1,2,3,4 and 5 but now "only" fail on 1,2,3and 4 that is only an increase of 20% or am doing something wrong? (its been a long labourus day)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:
Hold on a little! If space marines in cover will be like terminators (2+ sv), how on earth are we going to take them out now? Going from 3+ to 2+ is a 100% increase in effectivness when going from 6+ to 5+ is only 20% (?) increase. Seems like 8th will be more about space marines than 30k is.

That's why you have save modifiers.

But none of the basic infantry weapons have save mods!

You will need some pretty heavy stuff to shift those marines.

Now you have a reason to take plasma
Heavy Infantry is now heavy.

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:
Haven't seen this posted (so forgive if it's been posted prior to page 124):

So a new Crusade and a new variant of Marine.
Sounds like fun.

I'm actually pretty cranky about his.

I'm all for the story moving forward, but this seems a little..... Unnecessary.

Yo dawg, I heard you like Space Marines, so I've put more Space Marines into your Marines, and they'll be the Spaciest Space Marines ever.

I'll try to keep an open mind, but that's my initial reaction.

This kind of thing is exactly why I've always been against the story moving forward, because seriously, what else did you expect them to do? When 40K was still a setting, sitting at a minute to midnight was no problem, but if they want to turn it into an ongoing storyline it's painted them directly into a corner, so their choice was always going to be a binary one between respecting the fluff's status quo by paying off everything it had foreshadowed, or jumping the shark while riding on the back of another rocket-powered shark. The respect path would have required them to take a massive, reeking dump on their most popular line of product, while Warhammer 40K: The Sharknado Crusade lets them make even more varieties of Space Marines which will doubtless sell like heroin, so I have no idea how anyone could ever believe they would do anything other than the latter.

Rowboat Girlyman and the Kevin Spaciest Marines are the only real reason they are advancing the fluff, and the only reason they ever would.

 Bulldogging wrote:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:
Haven't seen this posted (so forgive if it's been posted prior to page 124):

So a new Crusade and a new variant of Marine.
Sounds like fun.

I'm actually pretty cranky about his.

I'm all for the story moving forward, but this seems a little..... Unnecessary.

Yo dawg, I heard you like Space Marines, so I've put more Space Marines into your Marines, and they'll be the Spaciest Space Marines ever.

I'll try to keep an open mind, but that's my initial reaction.

Same...This was the moment that I realized I am not the market group they are going after.

Yes because developing new, superior weapons technology(space marines are weapons, they are not and have never been people), is just soooooooooo dumb right? I mean why would you ever make any new materiel in war?

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:
Haven't seen this posted (so forgive if it's been posted prior to page 124):

So a new Crusade and a new variant of Marine.
Sounds like fun.

I'm actually pretty cranky about his.

I'm all for the story moving forward, but this seems a little..... Unnecessary.

Yo dawg, I heard you like Space Marines, so I've put more Space Marines into your Marines, and they'll be the Spaciest Space Marines ever.

I'll try to keep an open mind, but that's my initial reaction.

This kind of thing is exactly why I've always been against the story moving forward, because seriously, what else did you expect them to do? When 40K was still a setting, sitting at a minute to midnight was no problem, but if they want to turn it into an ongoing storyline it's painted them directly into a corner, so their choice was always going to be a binary one between respecting the fluff's status quo by paying off everything it had foreshadowed, or jumping the shark while riding on the back of another rocket-powered shark. The respect path would have required them to take a massive, reeking dump on their most popular line of product, while Warhammer 40K: The Sharknado Crusade lets them make even more varieties of Space Marines which will doubtless sell like heroin, so I have no idea how anyone could ever believe they would do anything other than the latter.

Rowboat Girlyman and the Kevin Spaciest Marines are the only real reason they are advancing the fluff, and the only reason they ever would.

I don't agree with you.

Advancing the plotline is great, but it depends on which directions they choose to take it.

Super Marines aren't the best choice imo.

But as it's been said, this discussion is best suited for another thread.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:
Hold on a little! If space marines in cover will be like terminators (2+ sv), how on earth are we going to take them out now? Going from 3+ to 2+ is a 100% increase in effectivness when going from 6+ to 5+ is only 20% (?) increase. Seems like 8th will be more about space marines than 30k is.

That's why you have save modifiers.

What if a Terminator is in cover but suffers a wound from a bolter? There's no negative save modifier, only a positive one. Suppose there's a rule that says armor saves can never be better than 2+?

Well yeah, that's how its always been. I have not yet played a GW game where a save roll of a 1 always fails, regardless of modifiers.
That's how it was in WHFB; you can stack armor all you want, but if you roll a natural 1 its still a fail.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jhnbrg wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:
Hold on a little! If space marines in cover will be like terminators (2+ sv), how on earth are we going to take them out now? Going from 3+ to 2+ is a 100% increase in effectivness when going from 6+ to 5+ is only 20% (?) increase. Seems like 8th will be more about space marines than 30k is.

I err.. don't think your numbers are quite right? Or you're not expressing yourself clearly, one or the other.

If you instead of faiing on 1 and 2 on a D6 fail on only 1, that is twice as good right?
If you fail your save on 1,2,3,4 and 5 but now "only" fail on 1,2,3and 4 that is only an increase of 20% or am doing something wrong? (its been a long labourus day)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:
Hold on a little! If space marines in cover will be like terminators (2+ sv), how on earth are we going to take them out now? Going from 3+ to 2+ is a 100% increase in effectivness when going from 6+ to 5+ is only 20% (?) increase. Seems like 8th will be more about space marines than 30k is.

That's why you have save modifiers.

But none of the basic infantry weapons have save mods!

You will need some pretty heavy stuff to shift those marines.

Now you have a reason to take plasma
Heavy Infantry is now heavy.

The big problem is that orks have VERY few weapons with good AP (or save mod).

There must be something more to shooting as every space marine in cover now has become almost unkillable (fluffy i grant). I strongly doubt that they will adjust point values in a way that decreases the amount of miniatures needed to play.

True but will that cover save help them when a squad of 20 boyz jumps onto them in CC? Striking first?

Probably not.

But we'll see.

Well, cover will probably not work in CC, so you can assault them. You're hitting first on the charge now, so this time marines get to die before orks.

ERJAK wrote:

 Bulldogging wrote:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:
Haven't seen this posted (so forgive if it's been posted prior to page 124):

So a new Crusade and a new variant of Marine.
Sounds like fun.

I'm actually pretty cranky about his.

I'm all for the story moving forward, but this seems a little..... Unnecessary.

Yo dawg, I heard you like Space Marines, so I've put more Space Marines into your Marines, and they'll be the Spaciest Space Marines ever.

I'll try to keep an open mind, but that's my initial reaction.

Same...This was the moment that I realized I am not the market group they are going after.

Yes because developing new, superior weapons technology(space marines are weapons, they are not and have never been people), is just soooooooooo dumb right? I mean why would you ever make any new materiel in war?

If your current lot of super amazing space marines aren't enough to turn the tide, then why would you make an even smaller number of even more super amazing space marines? All that time and resources would be much better spent developing better weaponry for your existing forces. Say, plasma guns which don't blow up their users, made en-masse and given to everybody you can get them to. That would be much more effective.

v0iddrgn wrote:
Using a pistol in CC should make the owning model forego all of their attacks.

Why, because otherwise armies without pistols will cry?

 jhnbrg wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:
Hold on a little! If space marines in cover will be like terminators (2+ sv), how on earth are we going to take them out now? Going from 3+ to 2+ is a 100% increase in effectivness when going from 6+ to 5+ is only 20% (?) increase. Seems like 8th will be more about space marines than 30k is.

I err.. don't think your numbers are quite right? Or you're not expressing yourself clearly, one or the other.

If you instead of faiing on 1 and 2 on a D6 fail on only 1, that is twice as good right?
If you fail your save on 1,2,3,4 and 5 but now "only" fail on 1,2,3and 4 that is only an increase of 20% or am doing something wrong? (its been a long labourus day)

Another way of looking at it would be that Space Marines went from passing their save on a 3, 4, 5, or 6 to passing it on a 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6. While orks went from passing it on a 6 to passing it on a 5 or 6. Space Marines halve their chance of failure, while orks double their chance of success. Space Marines will mostly pass their save either way and orks will mostly fail their save either way, but each sees a minor benefit for being in cover.

The bigger difference is that when it comes to shooting models are now getting a -1 instead of snap firing. For orks snap firing was not that big of a deal, because it was just a -1, while for Space Marines it was -3. Without knowing what else is changing I think it's too early to say that orks are getting the short end of the stick. I think it's a good change that will make certain things more viable, I just hope that orks get rules changes that make certain things better for them as well.

 jhnbrg wrote:
Hold on a little! If space marines in cover will be like terminators (2+ sv), how on earth are we going to take them out now? Going from 3+ to 2+ is a 100% increase in effectivness when going from 6+ to 5+ is only 20% (?) increase. Seems like 8th will be more about space marines than 30k is.

Use heavy weapons. Weapons with good armour save modifiers will punch right through cover, since it's not a separate save.

I honestly really like this. Cover becomes excellent against small arms and helpful against medium support weapons, but generally insufficient when faced with the big guns.

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:
True but will that cover save help them when a squad of 20 boyz jumps onto them in CC? Striking first?

Probably not.

But we'll see.

What will help is that all of those 20 boyz probably won't be hitting in the combat.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, cover will probably not work in CC, so you can assault them. You're hitting first on the charge now, so this time marines get to die before orks.

Great minds

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Spoiler:

ERJAK wrote:

 Bulldogging wrote:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:
Haven't seen this posted (so forgive if it's been posted prior to page 124):

So a new Crusade and a new variant of Marine.
Sounds like fun.

I'm actually pretty cranky about his.

I'm all for the story moving forward, but this seems a little..... Unnecessary.

Yo dawg, I heard you like Space Marines, so I've put more Space Marines into your Marines, and they'll be the Spaciest Space Marines ever.

I'll try to keep an open mind, but that's my initial reaction.

Same...This was the moment that I realized I am not the market group they are going after.

Yes because developing new, superior weapons technology(space marines are weapons, they are not and have never been people), is just soooooooooo dumb right? I mean why would you ever make any new materiel in war?

If your current lot of super amazing space marines aren't enough to turn the tide, then why would you make an even smaller number of even more super amazing space marines? All that time and resources would be much better spent developing better weaponry for your existing forces. Say, plasma guns which don't blow up their users, made en-masse and given to everybody you can get them to. That would be much more effective.

Perhaps these Marines are vat grown in legions and have been in stasis for millennia?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:
True but will that cover save help them when a squad of 20 boyz jumps onto them in CC? Striking first?

Probably not.

But we'll see.

What will help is that all of those 20 boyz probably won't be hitting in the combat.

In my head it started as a 30 boy squad

v0iddrgn wrote:
Using a pistol in CC should make the owning model forego all of their attacks.

Then what's the sword for?

They'll likely just lose their extra attack.

Quote: "The big problem is that orks have VERY few weapons with good AP (or save mod).

There must be something more to shooting as every space marine in cover now has become almost unkillable (fluffy i grant). I strongly doubt that they will adjust point values in a way that decreases the amount of miniatures needed to play."

^ who is to say what kind of armor modifiers the ranged Ork weaponry will have now? No one knows yet so keep a cool head.