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Yeah probably just a bit of confusion, I consider models "exclusive" when you can't get that specific cast of the models elsewhere even though you might be able to get a different cast of the same type of models. So in that sense I consider the Dark Vengeance models "exclusive" even though you can buy Tactical Marines, Terminators, etc separately, you can't buy the specific ones you get in the Dark Vengeance set.

There was a time when GW just included the exact same models you can buy elsewhere in their starter sets, but they haven't done that for a while.

Fair play, Skink.

I will say that they did what you described with Stormclaw and Death Masque. Only exception being Eldrad and Artemis; Eldrad isn't available at all right now but Artemis is in the Start Collecting Deathwatch set.

Actually the standard infantry models from the AoS starter set are available in mini starter boxes labelled as 'easy to build'.

alphaecho wrote:

Maybe Cawl is wiling to go where others wouldn't dare?

Quite possibly. In the Rise of the Primarch trailer Cawl says he was given a task ten millennia ago before the Heresy. Given the time frame it couldn't have been Robute's life support armour. Prehaps he was part of a Marines V2 project way back then? But whatever Cawl has cooked up he's had to sit on it until Robute came back into the picture to give him the authorisation. Messing with geenseed and or Primarch genetic material could have got him executed for heresy under earlier Imperial regimes.

IF these numarines are designed to become the new normal, I still can't fathom why GW invested all of the money into paying designers, buying the moulds, etc. for all of the marine units they have released in the last year (new tacticals, assaults, devastators, sternguard, vanguard, Blood Angel tacticals, Death Watch, Thousand Sons, etc., not to mention all the characters) if they planned all along to scrap that entire style of design in a years time when the new edition came out. They've done some crazy gak but that seems completely mental from a cost point of view, not to mention a feth you to their customers who just bought all those to replace older models, at a time when GW has been very good about becoming a better, more communicative company. I hope they'll just be an elite choice, a retinue for Rowboat or something.

 Pox Apostle wrote:
IF these numarines are designed to become the new normal, I still can't fathom why GW invested all of the money into paying designers, buying the moulds, etc. for all of the marine units they have released in the last year (new tacticals, assaults, devastators, sternguard, vanguard, Blood Angel tacticals, Death Watch, Thousand Sons, etc., not to mention all the characters) if they planned all along to scrap that entire style of design in a years time when the new edition came out. They've done some crazy gak but that seems completely mental from a cost point of view, not to mention a feth you to their customers who just bought all those to replace older models, at a time when GW has been very good about becoming a better, more communicative company. I hope they'll just be an elite choice, a retinue for Rowboat or something.

Apparently most of the sales of the kits happen when they're new, shiny and just released. They've gotten their money back already.

I think they will just exist alongside the current range of space marine models as it is a new armour mark. Like the way the mark 3 and mark 4 heresy stuff does.

So you will have a mark 9 (or 10 or whatever it is) tactical squad, mark 9 assault squad, etc as well as the current stuff.

No way are they going to consign mark 6 and 7 armour models to the dustbin of history. People will obviously still want the iconic 40k armour marks, would be a crazy decision just to throw away several still new kits for a product that looks a bit distinct.

Didn't Hastings say that they'll have different statlines than regular SMs? That would indicate that they are in fact their own 'thing'.

He did, but no one else has corroborated that

robbienw wrote:
He did, but no one else has corroborated that

And he was wrong about the leaked pic not being a numarine.

 gorgon wrote:
Didn't Hastings say that they'll have different statlines than regular SMs? That would indicate that they are in fact their own 'thing'.

He also said that there was a plastic thunderhawk coming to replace the old resin one...

 General Kroll wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
Didn't Hastings say that they'll have different statlines than regular SMs? That would indicate that they are in fact their own 'thing'.

He also said that there was a plastic thunderhawk coming to replace the old resin one...

Given his hit to miss ratio, I'd still give Hastings' words more credit than Naftka, Faeit, etc.

Actually, Deathwatch and the new Rubric Marines and Thousand Sons marines are taller that normal tactic squad marines. So I'm pretty sure that those kids where made with the new scale of marines in mind.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
Didn't Hastings say that they'll have different statlines than regular SMs? That would indicate that they are in fact their own 'thing'.

He also said that there was a plastic thunderhawk coming to replace the old resin one...

Given his hit to miss ratio, I'd still give Hastings' words more credit than Naftka, Faeit, etc.

And there's a whole thread dedicated to tracking their accuracy, where you can discuss the ins and outs of it all too!

(Thanks pretre for all the work in maintaining it!)

 Galas wrote:
Actually, Deathwatch and the new Rubric Marines and Thousand Sons marines are taller that normal tactic squad marines. So I'm pretty sure that those kids where made with the new scale of marines in mind.

As has been mentioned, repeatedly within this very thread, there is not as big of a height difference as you're making there out to be--nor is that the only difference from the sighted pictures compared to the new stuff.
Height and bulk-wise, the Deathwatch and Thousand Sons stuff is actually much closer to the most recent Tactical, Assault, Veteran, and Devastator kits.

The bulk and height of the sighted models is closer to the Custodes than the Deathwatch stuff. But part of that might simply be perspective tricks.

 Galas wrote:
Actually, Deathwatch and the new Rubric Marines and Thousand Sons marines are taller that normal tactic squad marines. So I'm pretty sure that those kids where made with the new scale of marines in mind.

The scale of Marine releases seems to be all over the place recently. The 1K sons and Death watch(with the exception of the Overkill guys) look like they will match up well with these new Marines. But the HH plastics match the height of the existing mk7 models.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Actually, Deathwatch and the new Rubric Marines and Thousand Sons marines are taller that normal tactic squad marines. So I'm pretty sure that those kids where made with the new scale of marines in mind.

As has been mentioned, repeatedly within this very thread, there is not as big of a height difference as you're making there out to be--nor is that the only difference from the sighted pictures compared to the new stuff.
Height and bulk-wise, the Deathwatch and Thousand Sons stuff is actually much closer to the most recent Tactical, Assault, Veteran, and Devastator kits.

The bulk and height of the sighted models is closer to the Custodes than the Deathwatch stuff. But part of that might simply be perspective tricks.

I was answering to Pox Apostle about how all the marine boxes of the last year will be invalidated by the new marines! I wasn't talking about that Deathwathc or Rubric where so much bigger that normal marines, just how they aren't squatting and so they will blend better with the new and bigger marines. To me the new marines don't seem so big as the Custodes, but well. We just need to wait a month or two to compare them!

Maybe Cawl is wiling to go where others wouldn't dare?

Quite possibly. In the Rise of the Primarch trailer Cawl says he was given a task ten millennia ago before the Heresy. Given the time frame it couldn't have been Robute's life support armour. Prehaps he was part of a Marines V2 project way back then? But whatever Cawl has cooked up he's had to sit on it until Robute came back into the picture to give him the authorisation. Messing with geenseed and or Primarch genetic material could have got him executed for heresy under earlier Imperial regimes.

Yea the only thing that I can think of to really justify these Numarines is that maybe during the great scouring Roboute authorised Cawl to try to incorporate elements of the Emperor's genetic code into the Ultramarine geneseed. He could have done this to ensure that his legion were proof against Chaotic corruption or perhaps to ensure that some of the Emperors physical prowess was not lost to mankind.
Roboute is a very practical man. Although the Emperor didn't see the need to improve the Space Marines any further, I can see the events of the heresy motivating Roboute to try something like this.

Like you said, when Roboute was killed by Fulgrim, Cawl would have surpressed any information about him conducting gene experiments. It would not have been well recieved by the High Lords! Now that Roboute is back, Cawl can use the fruits of 10,000 years of research to improve the geneseed and create the Numarines.

I can't wait to make a true scale space marine army!

I just want to know what's the deal with these guys is. I will get the models regardless, they look great, I just hope the fluff is not painfully stupid. All my marine modelling projects are on hold until I know whether these new fellows can be integrated into old chapters or are they their own separate thing. One thing is sure though: I will not paint them blue.

My wild speculation based on the Mark IV helmet in the trailer is that the new marines would've been commissioned as a chapter/legion while Roboute was alive. They've been in statis since, but Guilliman's ressurection provided the means to unleash them - gene material, authority etc
It might not be the same pattern ofcourse, but I needed something to base my speculations on

tneva82 wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Perhaps it's something to do with the Geneseed itself. With Roberts return, it's the first time anyone has had direct access to fresh Geneseed for x millennia. Perhaps this fresh stock has qualities that have been lost through degradation of time and corruption of the seed over the years.

That would be huge ret-con as that would mean HH marines were basically the new super marines that have then degenerated into current marines.

But thats not a ret-con. Thats the lore of the Imperium! The technological regresion was one of the mains themes of the Imperium. The Space Marines of Today are worse that the ones of the Horus Heresy era. They have more inestable geneseed, they are made by a worse process, and they have worse equipement. Just as Dreadnoughts of today are worse that the Contemptor variant of the Horus Heresy, etc...

Marines send missions to retrieve a single Terminator Armour for a reason. What is lost is lost forever. (At least before, I suppose that Cawl and Guilliman will change that)

 Kroem wrote:

Maybe Cawl is wiling to go where others wouldn't dare?

Quite possibly. In the Rise of the Primarch trailer Cawl says he was given a task ten millennia ago before the Heresy. Given the time frame it couldn't have been Robute's life support armour. Prehaps he was part of a Marines V2 project way back then? But whatever Cawl has cooked up he's had to sit on it until Robute came back into the picture to give him the authorisation. Messing with geenseed and or Primarch genetic material could have got him executed for heresy under earlier Imperial regimes.

Yea the only thing that I can think of to really justify these Numarines is that maybe during the great scouring Roboute authorised Cawl to try to incorporate elements of the Emperor's genetic code into the Ultramarine geneseed. He could have done this to ensure that his legion were proof against Chaotic corruption or perhaps to ensure that some of the Emperors physical prowess was not lost to mankind.
Roboute is a very practical man. Although the Emperor didn't see the need to improve the Space Marines any further, I can see the events of the heresy motivating Roboute to try something like this.

Like you said, when Roboute was killed by Fulgrim, Cawl would have surpressed any information about him conducting gene experiments. It would not have been well recieved by the High Lords! Now that Roboute is back, Cawl can use the fruits of 10,000 years of research to improve the geneseed and create the Numarines.

I don't think this idea takes fully into account what we do know from these pics, though. Based off these two pictures, this new marine kit (if that's what i actually is) is clearly a new pattern of armour based off the current two main variants of power armour; Mark 7 and 8, in terms of appearance. The bolter is also similar to the current pattern. If this oath was along the lines of "make me better Marines" and that was to do with the geneseed itself, it doesn't explain the new equipment. If it was to do with just better Space Marines in general including the armour/weapon, then his work would have been outdated by now, considering he hasn't worked on it for 10,000 years according to the trailer for Rise of the Primarch. Whatever the project is it's something he's been able to stop for all that time and have it nearly done shortly after resuming his work 10,000 years later, in the space of what i assume is less than a year, although i'm not sure on the actual timeframe for the recent campaigns. That implies it can't really be to do with updating the armour or weapons, which is the main thing we know from these pictures. I can't really think of a way that it could work with the huge time gap between the Horus Heresy and reviving Roboute. It could be to do with the geneseed but that wouldn't explain the sudden appereance of a different-but-not-much pattern of armour and weapons suddenly appearing when the previous version, Mark 8, has only received limited production.

We were told these were supposedly a "totally new type of marine", which doesn't seem to be the case based on this Picture. They're slightly different and larger, but still appear to be Standard Space Marines at their core. If these are an entirely new type of Space Marine then for some reason they've been put into one of the current Ultramarines Companies as tactical Marines.

So are we thinking this is to fit on 32mm base where the older where 25mm? I see talk of the Stormcast Eternals (Sigmarines!?) bandied about but those 40mm iirc.

Normal marines are made with a lot of effort from ordinary humans who have to age and grow for years before they begin the marinification program

I strongly suspect the Nu-marines shortcut this somehow meaning more marines fast (maybe without needing a human to convert)

 Ahtman wrote:
So are we thinking this is to fit on 32mm base where the older where 25mm? I see talk of the Stormcast Eternals (Sigmarines!?) bandied about but those 40mm iirc.

Old Regular Marines were switched to 32mm from 25mm a while back.

I don't think GW will now make them go back to 25mm!

(I hope?)

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Normal marines are made with a lot of effort from ordinary humans who have to age and grow for years before they begin the marinification program

I strongly suspect the Nu-marines shortcut this somehow meaning more marines fast (maybe without needing a human to convert)

I really hope that this is not it. It would make them lose any meaningful connection to the humanity, rendering them blander than Storcasts. The culture of their home/recruiting world has always been an important factor in determining the character of a Space Marine chapter.

I am amazed at the complex theories of the new marines. Some creative and wild stuff. Pretty cool.

A shame it just comes down to GW wanting to sell new models and make more $$$$.

Occam’s Razor - the simplest answer is most often correct. New edition, new starter, appeal to new players. Make old players buy the new shiny stuff. Look at AoS and the new minis that came out. You can use your old warhammer minis indeed.

 Crimson wrote:

robbienw wrote:
He did, but no one else has corroborated that

And he was wrong about the leaked pic not being a numarine.

Actually, to be fair, I think the precise content of what he said was that it wasn't what he'd had described to him. If I'm remembering that right, then it could simply be a case of miscommunication/understanding.

 Alpharius wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
So are we thinking this is to fit on 32mm base where the older where 25mm? I see talk of the Stormcast Eternals (Sigmarines!?) bandied about but those 40mm iirc.

Old Regular Marines were switched to 32mm from 25mm a while back.

I don't think GW will now make them go back to 25mm!

(I hope?)

My Marines aren't on 25mm but 32mm I'm just trying make sure I understand the basing. It seems like these newer style marine are going to be to the 32mm base what the older ones were to 25mm, size wise. I know my guys on the 32 don't reach the edges of the base. OTOH the SCE are even bigger and on Terminator sized 40mm bases. If it is just feet I can probably hold off and get taller feet as I have a bunch of marines that aren't assembled and weighted 32mm bases for them.