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 Ratius wrote:
Not impressed with the lascannons variable damage. They should have made it like dmg3 or dmg4. Its supposed to be a really hard hitting weapon.
But with some unlucky rolls you could end up doing a single point of damage.

I see weapon types still remain, assault, RF, heavy. Wonder if the rules are exactly the same as 7th for them or some tweaks will be brought in.

Anyone want to mathammer a 4 man dev squad with LCs VS yesterdays Dreadnought stats?

Well pretty simply, if you hit on 3s and wound on 3s (9str vs 8str), firing 4 cannons, you would expect to deal 6.3 wounds before saves. He'd get a 5+ save so that would get 5.25 wounds through.

But there's a high degree of variance with 4D6 dmg.

The standard deviation of expected wounds from 1 devastator is 0.768, with the expected wounds being 1.575.

A 90% confidence interval would be 0.19 to 2.95. Which is a pretty wide net.

What does this mean? Just because your expected total wounds are only 6.3, doesn't mean you can feel confident at all that you'll hit anywhere near that number.

The Dread is t7 though no? So str 9 VS t7.
He also only has a 3+ save. So 3 - 3 is a 6+ save.

 Ratius wrote:
The Dread is t7 though no? So str 9 VS t7.
He also only has a 3+ save. So 3 - 3 is a 6+ save.

Yes. Assuming S9 wounds T7 on 2s, then 4 devs average 6.5 wounds on a dread.

Interesting, thanks.

Breng77 wrote:
It wasn't always possible to 2+" space an entire squad and still remain in cover or hidden from other models.

I like Orks and IG getting saves, sorry you liked them just getting removed by almost every weapon in the game.

I was cheering the fact that they DO get saves.

I'm glad Lascannons are useful against MCs now. Though the lack of AP on boltguns makes me kind of sad.

 Ratius wrote:
The Dread is t7 though no? So str 9 VS t7.
He also only has a 3+ save. So 3 - 3 is a 6+ save.

Oh whoops. I thought it was T8, 2+. Not sure why i had that in my head.

You're right, the expected wounds increase, in that case.

But again, your confidence interval will still be pretty nuts.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I'm glad Lascannons are useful against MCs now. Though the lack of AP on boltguns makes me kind of sad.

It's necessary to stop AP creep as in 2nd. Boltguns were -1, but that meant everything else had to be that much higher.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I'm glad Lascannons are useful against MCs now. Though the lack of AP on boltguns makes me kind of sad.

I disagree. if boltguns had a -save then they would easily be the weapon of choice.

Also this means heavy bolters will probably be more valuable.

Saves will be on Hits.

Flamers do D6 hits each hit does 1 wound.
they roll a 4 and you save against those 4 auto hits.

Lascannon shoots 1 shot, you save that shot no wounds
you don't save that shot and it does d6 wounds.

Any other way is too powerful.

Martel732 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I'm glad Lascannons are useful against MCs now. Though the lack of AP on boltguns makes me kind of sad.

It's necessary to stop AP creep as in 2nd. Boltguns were -1, but that meant everything else had to be that much higher.

Oh, I'm sure they did it for a reason. I'm not too wound up about it either since any marine list that relies on bolters to kill is not a very good marine list.

 malamis wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

It's gonna be D3 dude

Let me dream X)

It'd be interesting to see if weapons introduce to-hit modifiers (blasts+1 for example). Large blasts at d6 will be interesting, the Standard Russ would become almost viable under that profile.

I could see them giving blasts bonuses to hit. They could also do it like in AoS where some artillery weapons get a bonus to hit based on unit size (usually +1 to hit for every 10 models in the unit). They could also possibly increase the number of hits based on unit size, so now maybe a normal large blast weapon will deal 1d6+1 hits against a 10 man squad of Guard and 1d6+5 hits against a 50 man blob of Guard. As an Ork player I'm somewhat biased towards the bonus to hit option rather than the increased number of hits option.

I could also see them giving different flamer weapons different ranges.

I think templates were visually cool, but getting rid of them allows a lot of nuance in how different area effect weapons are represented.

I'm interested in seeing if there is some sort of mechanic where big blasts might still "scatter" onto other units or hit multiple units. I can't think of a way to do this that isn't clunky, but hopefully the GW designers have as I like having that represented.

Saves will be on Hits.

Flamers do D6 hits each hit does 1 wound.
they roll a 4 and you save against those 4 auto hits.

Lascannon shoots 1 shot, you save that shot no wounds
you don't save that shot and it does d6 wounds.

Any other way is too powerful.

Is this confirmed though?

Me likey longtime.

Ahem, I mean I really like this. This might mean they're getting rid of the Instant Death and Eternal Warrior rules, since a lascannon can potentially off a character in a single blast now so multi-wound models aren't quite so scared of being one-shot

I'm kinda sad to see the flamer template go, as using that was one of the most cathartic things you could do (especially with multiple flamers in a unit) but this way makes them more viable and less clunky. Especially weapons that use to have the torrent rule. This also makes it so that flamer weapons are not useless against single multi-wound model units (so burning a carnifex with a bunch of incinerators might actually be a viable tactic, rather than just a pathetic last-ditch effort). .

Naaris wrote:
Saves will be on Hits.

Flamers do D6 hits each hit does 1 wound.
they roll a 4 and you save against those 4 auto hits.

Lascannon shoots 1 shot, you save that shot no wounds
you don't save that shot and it does d6 wounds.

Any other way is too powerful.

In Sigmar, you roll to hit then to wound, then armour saves are rolled, then the attacks dmg is rolled.
So if a weapon had 1 attack, 2+ to hit, 3+ to wound, d6 dmg, you'd roll 1 save if the attack wounded, and if you failed they then roll the d6 dmg. I'm expecting that's how it'll work in this

Wonder if this means Shuriken Catapults will be AP -1?

Exactly as terrible as I expected, this is gak

Youn wrote:
Wonder if this means Shuriken Catapults will be AP -1?

I'm really excited to see what every army gets now. I wander what the Thousand Sons are going to be like with their bolters and flamers...

So flamers effective range has slightly increased?

You no longer need to get as close as possible to get more template coverage, as long as you are 8" away you will always get D6 hits.
although you might roll a 1...

Not sure if this is a buff, nerf or sidegrade to be honest.

I see very similar rules tweaks as I see in Bolt Action.
What is this feeling I have?

Nevermind, as you were.
I will "accept" what comes out.
Lodge a couple "suggestions" with GW.
Then learn to accept further what is.

Everything I have seen so-far is what I had hoped for: adopting many Bolt Action methods, there is surprising complexity available with this simple method.
Just the alternating activation was more than I hoped for.

Naaris wrote:
Saves will be on Hits.

Flamers do D6 hits each hit does 1 wound.
they roll a 4 and you save against those 4 auto hits.

Lascannon shoots 1 shot, you save that shot no wounds
you don't save that shot and it does d6 wounds.

Any other way is too powerful.

Wow I really hope you're wrong. This would be terrible.

You should have the opportunity to save all the wounds.

 hippyjr wrote:
So flamers effective range has slightly increased?

You no longer need to get as close as possible to get more template coverage, as long as you are 8" away you will always get D6 hits.
although you might roll a 1...

Not sure if this is a buff, nerf or sidegrade to be honest.

I really like it on paper. It has better range and won't get screwed over by unit spacing, which is a massive plus in my mind. Unit spacing ruined template weapons, especially small blast weapons. Also, a template wasn't more realistic, as a flame thrower would arch over and the user would sway it side to side, rather than statically shoot it directly forwards

 Marmatag wrote:

Naaris wrote:
Saves will be on Hits.

Flamers do D6 hits each hit does 1 wound.
they roll a 4 and you save against those 4 auto hits.

Lascannon shoots 1 shot, you save that shot no wounds
you don't save that shot and it does d6 wounds.

Any other way is too powerful.

Wow I really hope you're wrong. This would be terrible.

You should have the opportunity to save all the wounds.

Its actually better that way. You're more likely to completely avoid all damage. Whereas if you take saves after the wound is multiplied, you are more likely to take more wounds.


Like this,

If a lascannon wounds you, you get 1 save. If you pass, you take no wounds. If you fail, you take D6 wounds.

Whereas the way you want is actually worse. It means if it wounds, you have to pass D6 saves. Sure, you're more likely to pass more saves when you roll more, but on average you will take more wounds with each shot.

Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:I regret the template for flamers as it was both practical and visually fun, but it's even let game equipment you have to pay.

Breng77 wrote:The biggest change with the way old template weapons work now is that they cannot hit multiple units. Flamers are now good against single models and units, but they do not have the upside against units that they used to. If we think of the Baleflamer from the heldrake, it currently can easily kill a whole squad of 10+ models, if it is changed to D6 hits it would be far less effective. Where as something like the mentioned Burna Boyz now can now put out a lot of hurt (15D6 hits) to any unit. Essentially your effectiveness is no longer tied to unit size any more.

One other advantage: Not having to worry about what's under the template and having super Templates hitting all levels.

Boltguns (S4) are now capable to damage Dreadnoughts (T7), if the old to-wound chart is still in place. The Boltgun is also Rapid Fire 1, which could mean double amount of shots for stationary shooters or double amount of shots for targets in 12´´. Poor Dreads.

If Age of Sigmar is anything to go by, a model won't get multiple saves for a multiple damage hit. It went: Hit roll > wound roll > save roll > damage

For example: Model A makes one attack that would inflict 3 damage. Model A hits model B on a 3+ (one roll) and successfully wounds on a 3+ (one roll). Model B fails its save (one roll). Model B suffers 3 damage and will die if it has 3 wounds or less remaining.

But that's if the AoS rules apply.

 Marmatag wrote:

Naaris wrote:
Saves will be on Hits.

Flamers do D6 hits each hit does 1 wound.
they roll a 4 and you save against those 4 auto hits.

Lascannon shoots 1 shot, you save that shot no wounds
you don't save that shot and it does d6 wounds.

Any other way is too powerful.

Wow I really hope you're wrong. This would be terrible.

You should have the opportunity to save all the wounds.

Effectively, everything will be armed with (nerfed) destroyer weapons in their current incarnation?

I kind of like this, it'll probably lead to the state they want, which is that a 1000 pt game will be over in 20~ minutes (because EVERYTHING DIES) so for a really long engagement, you need crates of models, and thus need to spend more on the only thing that's valuable, which is the models

Go ahead. Shoot my T7 dread with 3+ armor with your 0 AP boltguns. The rest of my list thanks you, especially the DC. This is the same crazy logic that implies that in their current incarnation, MCs are somehow vulnerable to small arms. They aren't.

Naaris wrote:
Saves will be on Hits.

Flamers do D6 hits each hit does 1 wound.
they roll a 4 and you save against those 4 auto hits.

Lascannon shoots 1 shot, you save that shot no wounds
you don't save that shot and it does d6 wounds.

Any other way is too powerful.

First, you realize due to the commutative law of multiplication, that it is literally the same mathematical outcome. Second holy RNG, "do I take six wounds or none, it's all decided by a single roll", you are thinking of making six saves at once, I'm thinking of failing six saves at the same time. It all washes out at the end but saves vs hits will be much lumpier, and lumpy RNG ruins the player experience.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Exactly as terrible as I expected, this is gak

What's wrong with the rules ?