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Poly Ranger wrote:

It's not a buff to terminators durability. As you pointed out it is worse for them with ap3 and ap4 weapons. Against ap2 they will now get a 5+... With current rules they get a 5++ against ap2 anyway. With ap1 they will get a 6+... which is worse than a 5++.
Combined with this - so many more units now get a save against shots that they wouldn't have before - against so many types of weapons that terminators didnt need to worry about anyway.

Of course the rules concerning terminator armour could be massively different.

Well with armour modifiers layered saves aren't so bad. So they may get to roll an invulnerable save in addition to their armour save.
(Like how Ward/Regen saves worked in WHFB)
Which so long as they don't go excessive with what they allow (Those only ever were better than a 4+ in special cases, mostly on unarmoured models) It wouldn't be too bad

Poly Ranger wrote:It's not a buff to terminators durability. As you pointed out it is worse for them with ap3 and ap4 weapons. Against ap2 they will now get a 5+... With current rules they get a 5++ against ap2 anyway. With ap1 they will get a 6+... which is worse than a 5++.
Combined with this - so many more units now get a save against shots that they wouldn't have before - against so many types of weapons that terminators didnt need to worry about anyway.

Of course the rules concerning terminator armour could be massively different.

Fair point. The only sense in which terminators would be buffed is if we get the AoS cover rules. In that case, AP 2 weapons would reduce terminators to a 5+ save, but if they're in cover, that would get bumped to a 4+.

I am interested in seeing how ubiquitous invuln saves are in 8th.

 Traditio wrote:

ERJAK 724417 wrote:You don't know ANY of that to be true, at all. You are making presumption based on a tiny tiny amount of information about 8th. For all you know the new blasts system could be a billion times more deadly than the old one. Sh*t for all you know large blasts could now be 288D6 distributed to any 3 tables within 45 miles.

Guy A: Alright, so I'll just move my Dire Avengers here...
Guy B: Ok, that's it for movements. Shooting phase?
Guy A: Yes, so, I'm going to use these dire avengers to...

A bell jingles as the door to the FLGS opens. A man comes rushing through the door, breathless, with a bag full of dice in hand.

New guy: WAIT! HALT THE GAME!!!!!!!!

The FLGS owner, noticing the disturbance, walks over:

FLGS owner: Can I help you?

New guy: I'm from the next town over. I drove here as fast as I can, but it was still an hour drive! I need to do this!

FLGS owner: Do what?

New guy: I'm using a Death Stroke, and it's my shooting phase.

New guy runs over to the game table and dumps the bag of dice onto said gaming table.

Guys A and B frantically begin doing calculations, rolling saves and removing models from the table...

Epic

Jbz` wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

It's not a buff to terminators durability. As you pointed out it is worse for them with ap3 and ap4 weapons. Against ap2 they will now get a 5+... With current rules they get a 5++ against ap2 anyway. With ap1 they will get a 6+... which is worse than a 5++.
Combined with this - so many more units now get a save against shots that they wouldn't have before - against so many types of weapons that terminators didnt need to worry about anyway.

Of course the rules concerning terminator armour could be massively different.

Well with armour modifiers layered saves aren't so bad. So they may get to roll an invulnerable save in addition to their armour save.
(Like how Ward/Regen saves worked in WHFB)
Which so long as they don't go excessive with what they allow (Those only ever were better than a 4+ in special cases, mostly on unarmoured models) It wouldn't be too bad

Yeh layered saves are dangerous ground. They would have to be very careful if they brought them in (although RP and FnP are precedents). Take an extreme example - a TH/SS BA termi squad with an attached Sanguinary Priest would require 162 bs3 lasgun shots on average to take down a single terminator if they were allowed their 3++ and FnP on top of their 2++. Even without the FnP it still requires an average of 108 lasgun shots per kill. Of course you take the median if looking at the final kill so you halve the final kill (as it's just as likely to happen with the first shot as with the 108th shot), so without FnP it would take 486 (108x4 + 54x1) bs3 lasgun shots to kill a layered save 5 man TH/SS termi squad.

 Traditio wrote:
On that note:

Does everyone remember how I once made a thread suggesting that all weapons should wound, regardless of toughness or AV, on a 6?

And does everyone remember how the idea was universally reviled?

Yeah...

Funny how that works, isn't it?

Well it's still silly. And that's not how 8E works. A 6 explodes... allowing you to go off chart. It doesn't wound, it's allowed to try.

I can't argue with that. Poly
In my head though they would not hand out overly powerful ones though.
I'd Imagine Terminator armour would give a 6+
Stormshield would be 5+
TA+SS would be a 4+

Only virtually unarmoured models (DE Archons/Succubi etc.) would have access to 2+/3+ invuns (Unless they're temporary like Ghazghkull's Waaagh invun at the moment)

And it'd be FNP/RP OR invun save (and any multi-wound attack would negat FNP/RP)

Jbz` wrote:
I can't argue with that. Poly
In my head though they would not hand out overly powerful ones though.
I'd Imagine Terminator armour would give a 6+
Stormshield would be 5+
TA+SS would be a 4+

Only virtually unarmoured models (DE Archons/Succubi etc.) would have access to 2+/3+ invuns (Unless they're temporary like Ghazghkull's Waaagh invun at the moment)

And it'd be FNP/RP OR invun save (and any multi-wound attack would negat FNP/RP)

Yeh don't get me wrong - I like the idea of layered saves, but you are right in saying they need to keep them low. Also only having the option of the 2 best saves if the model has 3 (or more) saves.

2nd edition had layered saves... it really wasn't that bad. And yeah, if they were more conservative, it could avoid some of the silliness and OP things from 2E

 Lobukia wrote:
2nd edition had layered saves... it really wasn't that bad. And yeah, if they were more conservative, it could avoid some of the silliness and OP things from 2E

More guns stripped more armour saves down in 2nd though to balance it (although I suppose there were 'to-hit' modifiers with range and cover too). Same with Warhammer - st4 onwards stripped the armour saves down so Ward saves weren't OP (neither was a Chaos Knights 1+ save).

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
2nd edition had layered saves... it really wasn't that bad. And yeah, if they were more conservative, it could avoid some of the silliness and OP things from 2E

More guns stripped more armour saves down in 2nd though to balance it (although I suppose there were 'to-hit' modifiers with range and cover too). Same with Warhammer - st4 onwards stripped the armour saves down so Ward saves weren't OP (neither was a Chaos Knights 1+ save).

Exactly. But it seems 8's keeping the thought.. just toning down both effects. As they said, "keeping units their stats" more than special rules. I liked 2nd. A moderated form of it, crossed with 1page40k, seems great to me.

hahahah

All the consternation. As an old time player that saw half my mates quit the game after 3rd edition came out with the radical changes, this is amusing.

Have not played since 4th ed first showed. Tried to read most of the 7th ed ruleset til it made RogueTrader rules seem simple. The radical changes are not as much as 2nd to 3rd. but so far seems a major cleanup of the rules bloat.

Waiting for more to come but so far this all looks good. The only thing they can do to really ruin the game is to keep some form of the fall back rules and such.

(in 2nd edition you run to the nearest cover. Why would you not do that in ANY edition when broken...."hey look lets run into that crossfire and get murdered rather than jump into those trees over there" idiocy but I assume some form will still fall into 8th as well.

I agree about liking 2nd - It's when I got into it as a kid. If they do a 2nd style type of game featuring modifiers they can bring a much greater variety to weapons and units - although as you say, they need to tone down the crazier aspects of 2nd.

I like the new system.

1. T-shirt saves actually mean something, as do GEQ.

2. WS and BS mechanicneeded replacing, BS prety much works as it did, WS was a wasted concept as rarely did the 5+ to hit come into play.

3. Lascannon are actually survivable, saves can be made, and they can roll poorly. However the mechanic of d3 and d6 wounds is too crude, it is easier capped where necessary, e.g. d3/2 = d3 roll maximum score of 2; and 2/d3 = d3 roll minimum score of 2
2/d6/5 = d6 damage rolls of 1 count as 2, rolls of 6 count as 5.

This system is versatile thought the D3/2 and D6/4 reults are most used

 Traditio wrote:

ERJAK 724417 wrote:You don't know ANY of that to be true, at all. You are making presumption based on a tiny tiny amount of information about 8th. For all you know the new blasts system could be a billion times more deadly than the old one. Sh*t for all you know large blasts could now be 288D6 distributed to any 3 tables within 45 miles.

Guy A: Alright, so I'll just move my Dire Avengers here...
Guy B: Ok, that's it for movements. Shooting phase?
Guy A: Yes, so, I'm going to use these dire avengers to...

A bell jingles as the door to the FLGS opens. A man comes rushing through the door, breathless, with a bag full of dice in hand.

New guy: WAIT! HALT THE GAME!!!!!!!!

The FLGS owner, noticing the disturbance, walks over:

FLGS owner: Can I help you?

New guy: I'm from the next town over. I drove here as fast as I can, but it was still an hour drive! I need to do this!

FLGS owner: Do what?

New guy: I'm using a Death Stroke, and it's my shooting phase.

New guy runs over to the game table and dumps the bag of dice onto said gaming table.

Guys A and B frantically begin doing calculations, rolling saves and removing models from the table...

You win the internet today. Have an exalt. I haven't laughed this hard on this forum for a long, long time.

Looks like I picked the right time to be building a Salamanders army. I wonder if Chapter Tactics will still exist in some form or another.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

That is a fact - Since Space Marine vs Space Marine is the most common match type I propose that Bolt Weapons be AP3.
Space Marine killers.

Haha, well I guess I can't argue with that logic.

 John Prins wrote:
Looks like I picked the right time to be building a Salamanders army. I wonder if Chapter Tactics will still exist in some form or another.

Oh, most certainly.

I don't think AP will be related to the new modifiers particularly.
I reckon Lascannon will be the mac modifier at -3, along with Meltas and super heavy nasty things. Most regular weapons will be 0, some of the heavier squad weapons like Autocannon and Heavy Bolters might be -1 and then a band of things above that but below the really nasty stuff.

 John Prins wrote:
Looks like I picked the right time to be building a Salamanders army. I wonder if Chapter Tactics will still exist in some form or another.

Already said that they would. Which is good news IMO. I'd really like to see the same for IG from given planets too.

 Luciferian wrote:

HaussVonHorne wrote:

Jbz` wrote:
As one of the most common basic infantry weapons in the galaxy would it not make sense that everyone wears armour that could protect them from it?

No it does not, because then most basic infantry could not move due to the weight/size and cost of the armor. And there are more lasguns and ork sluggas (because there's more armed Guard and orks) in the galaxy to overshadow every boltgun ever made. 7.62 rifles are the most common infantry weapon on earth, so why doesn't everyone just wear a bomb defuser full-body armor suit (assuming those can even stop direct bullets)?

IRL body armor is rated by the NIJ certification system. Soldiers and marines wear level IV rated ceramic plates that are designed to stop multiple 7.62x51 rounds, which are significantly more powerful than 7.62x39 rounds fired by your average AK. No EOD Michelin Man suit required. So, at least in our world, the average soldier does indeed wear body armor designed to exceed the threat of the average infantry round.

The U.S. military is not the average soldier, look towards Russia, China, and the UN peacekeepers for average.

Has there been any word on Invulnerable saves yet?
Is it staying the same or is it going to be like AoS where shields and special rules prevent or impede the rending of weapons?

Iirc Pete Foley answered that question when people asked if the 2 wounds were instead of an Invul for Terminators.

Invuls still exist in some shape - we just don't know the specifics..


EDIT: Hmm upon looking I can't see that anywhere on Twitter, so maybe I heard someone say that elsewhere.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Iirc Pete Foley answered that question when people asked if the 2 wounds were instead of an Invul for Terminators.

Invuls still exist in some shape - we just don't know the specifics..


EDIT: Hmm upon looking I can't see that anywhere on Twitter, so maybe I heard someone say that elsewhere.

I think it may have been from FB instead of Twitter.

Adding to the speculation, as I have no single base or claim I have heard this...

I think I would prefer a system, which maintains the speed of the game they claim it now has. Just roll one save. Perhaps invulnerable saves could be 'replaced' by a sort of a saving throw reduction cap, possibly upgrading a saving throw in the process. Stuff like "Terminator armour saves can never be modified to be worse than 5+" or models with a Storm Shield can never have their saving throw modified to be worse than 3+".

They could always go with Invun saves now just add onto Armour Saves

Ie: 5+ Invun translates to +1 Armour Save, but a 1 always fails. This seems a bit clunky to me, but possible

Or

They could go with it negating ASM points,

Ie: a 4-6 Invul would negate the first negative point of modifier, a 3+ would negate the first two negative points of modifier.

This would be an easier way to work it, though it remove any difference between 4++ to 6++ that we have at the minute.

Using this method would mean that Termies hit by a Lascannon would actually get a 4+ saves, and SS termies would still get their 3+ save

It also then means standard marines with an Invul would get a 5+ or 4+ with SS


This in general means that tougher units would still have a use even with heavy weapons around, but it also stops 1+ saves that can't be hurt or the addition of the "1 always fails" caveat.


For wounding things rather than it working on a straight 6 Wounds everything it could go 6 followed by D6 to wound.


Lastly, we don't know if these weapons have any other specific rules. Perhaps the flamer does still ignore Cover, we have been shown a condensed and clearly "prototype" stat line. No special rules, no extra rules, just the bog standard stats.

it's worth speculating about the STR rating for other weapons, the bolt gun would suddenly look a lot better of other infantry weapons where mostly S3, just for example

C.Straken wrote:
They could always go with Invun saves now just add onto Armour Saves

Ie: 5+ Invun translates to +1 Armour Save, but a 1 always fails. This seems a bit clunky to me, but possible

Or

They could go with it negating ASM points,

Ie: a 4-6 Invul would negate the first negative point of modifier, a 3+ would negate the first two negative points of modifier.

This would be an easier way to work it, though it remove any difference between 4++ to 6++ that we have at the minute.

Using this method would mean that Termies hit by a Lascannon would actually get a 4+ saves, and SS termies would still get their 3+ save

It also then means standard marines with an Invul would get a 5+ or 4+ with SS


This in general means that tougher units would still have a use even with heavy weapons around, but it also stops 1+ saves that can't be hurt or the addition of the "1 always fails" caveat.


For wounding things rather than it working on a straight 6 Wounds everything it could go 6 followed by D6 to wound.


Lastly, we don't know if these weapons have any other specific rules. Perhaps the flamer does still ignore Cover, we have been shown a condensed and clearly "prototype" stat line. No special rules, no extra rules, just the bog standard stats.

negation on negation is messy though, which is something they're trying to get away from.

Late to the party but.. why they did not give the Termies a 1+ that fails on a rolled "1" anyway, like chaos knights in 5th edition WHFB?

Yes, what Straken wrote - sorry, waited long before clicking "submit"

Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:I don't think AP will be related to the new modifiers particularly.
I reckon Lascannon will be the mac modifier at -3, along with Meltas and super heavy nasty things. Most regular weapons will be 0, some of the heavier squad weapons like Autocannon and Heavy Bolters might be -1 and then a band of things above that but below the really nasty stuff.

Well, the Armour Save Modifier will be called AP. We have seen some of the Weapons who had a certain AP have their new AP set at certain levels, so I do believe the correlation exists. Will the correlation be the same for all Weapons? I rather doubt it, but those will be the exceptions rather than the rule. We've seen them change the AP of Weapons in the past.

Like a Chaplain's rosarius invulnerable saves will become "unmodified" so no matter what the AP is they can never be lower than (for example) a 4+.

With some drop of AP values I'm wondering about weapons like the Ork Shoota or Tyranid fleshborers. Will they be the same as Bolters but with different range?