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We've all been at each other's throats these past months, mostly on the Brexit issue, but here's a question for everybody on dakka: why is Britain and Europe falling behind the rest of the world?

Let me explain. Somebody on the radio made a good point the other day and it went like this:


The USA is shaping the IT future with Amazon, Google, Facebook, Apple etc etc and you see how rich and powerful and influential these companies are.


but where is the British and European versions of this?

And then you look at Asia with all its manufacturing and Japanese companies in Europe, and China surging ahead etc etc

But where is the British and European version?


We as a continent are miles behind Is Britain and Europe just a museum and holiday destination these days?

Why have we lost the initiative?

Far enough, it might be impossible to compete with Chinese factories churning out stuff by the bushel, but the USA is a fellow 1st world democracy with similar advantages and disadvantages to Europe...


Where is our Silicon Valley as an example?

The EU produces over a third of the worlds entire scientific output.

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/scientists4eu/pages/1016/attachments/original/1498229127/SfEU_factsheet_12-2-2016.pdf?1498229127

 r_squared wrote:
A tiny bit of good news...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44391449

Here's hoping his retirement is, short.

Looking forward to reading the Private Eye take on his departure.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The EU produces over a third of the worlds entire scientific output.

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/scientists4eu/pages/1016/attachments/original/1498229127/SfEU_factsheet_12-2-2016.pdf?1498229127

I'm talking about stuff that captures the popular imagination and shapes the agenda.

"The USA is designing the future. Asia is building it."

That was a great quote, and one I wish I had coined myself. In comparison, Britain and Europe seems to be dying on its arse.

Microsoft, Ebay, Paypal, Google, Amazon, Hollywood, Nextflix, Facebook. Nobody can deny the impact they have made on the world.

Look at the world of video games: Xbox and PlayStation, which are American and Japanese respectively. Look at the influence of Korean and Japanese car building in Europe.

Look at the rise of India and China...


And like I said, where's Britain and Europe's answer to this? We're getting left behind in the departure lounge...

So, if we ignore what Europe is doing and leading the world in then we can say that Europe is falling behind.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
So, if we ignore what Europe is doing and leading the world in then we can say that Europe is falling behind.

I'm not denying the importance of science or the fact that British and Europeans were responsible for discovering or inventing most of this stuff

But in terms of economic growth, we're the sloth to their cheetah.

The average person is not going to care about John Logie Baird's TV invention.

They will care about those cheap 50 inch TVs coming from the rest of the world and the Facebook app they can access through that TV to talk to their mates and loved ones.

And then they will get into their european car to visit them...

Jorim wrote:
And then they will get into their european car to visit them...

Their Ford, or Honda, or Toyota, or Mitsubishi?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Jorim wrote:
And then they will get into their european car to visit them...

Their Ford, or Honda, or Toyota, or Mitsubishi?

Or BMW, Audi, Porsche, VW. You know all those cars nobody buys and that totally aren't exported into the whole world.

I totally forgot that we only drive amerikan and Asian cars here.

Jorim wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Jorim wrote:
And then they will get into their european car to visit them...

Their Ford, or Honda, or Toyota, or Mitsubishi?

Or BMW, Audi, Porsche, VW. You know all those cars nobody buys and that totally aren't exported into the whole world.

I totally forgot that we only drive amerikan and Asian cars here.

Renault, Peugot, Vauxhall, Opel, Citroen etc.

Especially as in Q1 of 2018, the 3 best selling car manufacturers in europe were european, with Ford 4th.

https://www.best-selling-cars.com/europe/2018-q1-europe-best-selling-car-manufacturers-and-brands/

So this is just another case of DINLT's usual hysterical posting with no basis in reality.

Personally I drive a Mini. You know, a German car.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The EU produces over a third of the worlds entire scientific output.

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/scientists4eu/pages/1016/attachments/original/1498229127/SfEU_factsheet_12-2-2016.pdf?1498229127

I'm talking about stuff that captures the popular imagination and shapes the agenda.

"The USA is designing the future. Asia is building it."

And the tools with which Asia and the US build their stuff are made in Germany.

There's nothing wrong with being very good at something and sticking with it, even if it's lower profile that the bells and whistles of the latest app du jour.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200203/cmhansrd/vo021126/debtext/21126-17.htm#21126-17_spnew1





We should not ask people to vote on a blank sheet of paper and tell them to trust us to fill in the details afterwards. For referendums to be fair and compatible with our parliamentary process, we need the electors to be as well informed as possible and to know exactly what they are voting for.

The problem with comprehension is, it often comes too late

jouso wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The EU produces over a third of the worlds entire scientific output.

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/scientists4eu/pages/1016/attachments/original/1498229127/SfEU_factsheet_12-2-2016.pdf?1498229127

I'm talking about stuff that captures the popular imagination and shapes the agenda.

"The USA is designing the future. Asia is building it."

And the tools with which Asia and the US build their stuff are made in Germany.

There's nothing wrong with being very good at something and sticking with it, even if it's lower profile that the bells and whistles of the latest app du jour.

Yeah, but who's the driving force behind the future: automation, electric cars, Tesla, missions to Mars, solar panels, social media, and all that jazz.

It's those people across the Atlantic who are neither British or European.


I'm communicating with you on an American designed laptop that was built in China....

You can of course appreciate where I'm going with this?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

jouso wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The EU produces over a third of the worlds entire scientific output.

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/scientists4eu/pages/1016/attachments/original/1498229127/SfEU_factsheet_12-2-2016.pdf?1498229127

I'm talking about stuff that captures the popular imagination and shapes the agenda.

"The USA is designing the future. Asia is building it."

And the tools with which Asia and the US build their stuff are made in Germany.

There's nothing wrong with being very good at something and sticking with it, even if it's lower profile that the bells and whistles of the latest app du jour.

Yeah, but who's the driving force behind the future: automation, electric cars, Tesla, missions to Mars, solar panels, social media, and all that jazz.

It's those people across the Atlantic who are neither British or European.


I'm communicating with you on an American designed laptop that was built in China....

You can of course appreciate where I'm going with this?

Over a medium invented by a Brit

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Jorim wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Jorim wrote:
And then they will get into their european car to visit them...

Their Ford, or Honda, or Toyota, or Mitsubishi?

Or BMW, Audi, Porsche, VW. You know all those cars nobody buys and that totally aren't exported into the whole world.

I totally forgot that we only drive amerikan and Asian cars here.

Renault, Peugot, Vauxhall, Opel, Citroen etc.

Especially as in Q1 of 2018, the 3 best selling car manufacturers in europe were european, with Ford 4th.

https://www.best-selling-cars.com/europe/2018-q1-europe-best-selling-car-manufacturers-and-brands/

So this is just another case of DINLT's usual hysterical posting with no basis in reality.

Reality?

The reality is that the biggest and richest companies in the world, the Amazons, the Apples etc etc

are not from our neck of the woods. I'm merely asking why we as a continent don't have something similar.

I say this to everybody, but I'm not picking a fight here. Honest.

I know our default position is disagreement 9 times out of 10

But I'm genuenly wondering why we, Britain or Europe,

don't have anything to match Amazon, Apple, Ebay, facebook etc etc etc

For once, this is not about Brexit or the EU.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

jouso wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The EU produces over a third of the worlds entire scientific output.

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/scientists4eu/pages/1016/attachments/original/1498229127/SfEU_factsheet_12-2-2016.pdf?1498229127

I'm talking about stuff that captures the popular imagination and shapes the agenda.

"The USA is designing the future. Asia is building it."

And the tools with which Asia and the US build their stuff are made in Germany.

There's nothing wrong with being very good at something and sticking with it, even if it's lower profile that the bells and whistles of the latest app du jour.

Yeah, but who's the driving force behind the future: automation, electric cars, Tesla, missions to Mars, solar panels, social media, and all that jazz.

It's those people across the Atlantic who are neither British or European.


I'm communicating with you on an American designed laptop that was built in China....

You can of course appreciate where I'm going with this?

Over a medium invented by a Brit

The internet and the WWW are two different things.

In Switzerland, while trying to find out how the entire universe works. Europe based projects are working hard to develop nuclear fusion, while developing a replacement for GPS and space missions to other planets.

Or, in other words, you're talking nonsense. Again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and as for why the Big Companies are American - the American take on capitalism currently seems massively in favour of the development of monopolies, which a lot of European countries try to break up.

 Graphite wrote:
In Switzerland, while trying to find out how the entire universe works. Europe based projects are working hard to develop nuclear fusion, while developing a replacement for GPS and space missions to other planets.

Or, in other words, you're talking nonsense. Again.

I think you're being wilfully argumentative for the sake of it and have completely misunderstood what I was getting at.

Would you deny that Facebook, Amazon, Ebay, et al haven't shaped the agenda, the conversation, of billions of lives the world over?

I don't think you would.

This is not me defending Brexit or attacking the European Union.

This is me genuinely asking: where is the British Facebook? Where is the European Amazon?

Why isn't Britain and Europe, with all its wealth and knowledge, not shaping the future agenda?


Why is the USA and Asia doing all the running?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

jouso wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The EU produces over a third of the worlds entire scientific output.

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/scientists4eu/pages/1016/attachments/original/1498229127/SfEU_factsheet_12-2-2016.pdf?1498229127

I'm talking about stuff that captures the popular imagination and shapes the agenda.

"The USA is designing the future. Asia is building it."

And the tools with which Asia and the US build their stuff are made in Germany.

There's nothing wrong with being very good at something and sticking with it, even if it's lower profile that the bells and whistles of the latest app du jour.

Yeah, but who's the driving force behind the future: automation, electric cars, Tesla, missions to Mars, solar panels, social media, and all that jazz.

It's those people across the Atlantic who are neither British or European.


I'm communicating with you on an American designed laptop that was built in China....

You can of course appreciate where I'm going with this?

Over a medium invented by a Brit

The internet and the WWW are two different things.

www.dakkadakka.com

and of course ignoring the collaborative efforts of the internet in the first place.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

jouso wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The EU produces over a third of the worlds entire scientific output.

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/scientists4eu/pages/1016/attachments/original/1498229127/SfEU_factsheet_12-2-2016.pdf?1498229127

I'm talking about stuff that captures the popular imagination and shapes the agenda.

"The USA is designing the future. Asia is building it."

And the tools with which Asia and the US build their stuff are made in Germany.

There's nothing wrong with being very good at something and sticking with it, even if it's lower profile that the bells and whistles of the latest app du jour.

Yeah, but who's the driving force behind the future: automation, electric cars, Tesla, missions to Mars, solar panels, social media, and all that jazz.

It's those people across the Atlantic who are neither British or European.


I'm communicating with you on an American designed laptop that was built in China....

You can of course appreciate where I'm going with this?

Again, those Teslas are built on German automated lines and robots.

I see where you're going, but as someone working on one of the least glamorous sectors out there (agrochemicals) yet one that has massive R+D and feeds an increasing world population day in day out I'm not overly concerned about how much glitter is there on my linkedin.

Those Chinese millionaires and Silicon Valley executives eat organic food that has been grown using my products. It all starts on the ground

Nestlé is Swiss, H&M, Spotify and IKEA are Swedish, Bayer (German) is just about to swallow Monsanto whole and so on and so forth. CERN is European. The Galileo project is European.

As for cultural impact, both Sweden and the UK are pop music juggernauts, punching well above our respective weights.

Why does it matter that companies like Apple are very big?

To put it differently, why is that a good thing that we should want to emulate?

I know where you’re coming from DINLT, and it would be nice if we could start up some rival tec giants to Amazon and Apple and Netflix, but we do have our strengths in other fields and we mustn’t forget that.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Why does it matter that companies like Apple are very big?

To put it differently, why is that a good thing that we should want to emulate?

Because apparently putting out phones which are sometimes years behind their competitors in terms of features and survive based entirely on hype and a fanatical fanbase is the best?

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Why does it matter that companies like Apple are very big?

To put it differently, why is that a good thing that we should want to emulate?

This isn't a Brexit or a Remain argument I'm going for here.


But rightly or wrongly, we hear a lot about European values and all that.

Why shouldn't European values shape the technology of the future with regards to drones, automation, personal privacy and information, exploration trips to Mars or Planet Zog or wherever?

The USA is obviously a democracy with the rule of law and a love of liberty and freedom. That much we have in common with them, but nobody would deny we do differ with them on a lot of things.

Shouldn't Europe be in the conversation rather than let the USA do all the running?

again I ask: where is Britain and Europe's answer to Silicon valley?











Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I know where you’re coming from DINLT, and it would be nice if we could start up some rival tec giants to Amazon and Apple and Netflix, but we do have our strengths in other fields and we mustn’t forget that.

Forgeworld, yeah, I suppose.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Why does it matter that companies like Apple are very big?

To put it differently, why is that a good thing that we should want to emulate?

Because apparently putting out phones which are sometimes years behind their competitors in terms of features and survive based entirely on hype and a fanatical fanbase is the best?

It is. From a purely financial standpoint at least.

ESA sent the UK-built Mars-lander Beagle 2 to Mars in 2005, and partnered with Roskosmos to send atmospheric probe Schiaparelli to Mars in 2016. We ARE sending stuff to Mars.

Well, here's a case in point: in the last few minutes, the sports news is reporting that Amazon have just muscled in and snapped up a chunk of the Premier League football broadcasting rights...


I won't get into the rights and wrongs of Amazon here, but their tentacles are getting everywhere from food to football, IT to books.

Parts of Europe, including the UK, were major players in the industrial age. Then we spent 30 years lobbing bombs at each other and attempting to destroy our respective industries, and then spent the next 45 giving each other suspicious glances whilst slowly learning to get along.

It didn't help.

Oh, Nokia is another good example of a leading European company.

So apparently the UK has finished having a dramatic argument with itself about a backstop proposal that the EU will reject.

They will simply look at it, say "That's a lovely paper, but we're sticking with what we already agreed in December, thanks. Since you are a reliable partner you will obviously be sticking to what you already agreed, if not, transition is off the table."