UK & EU Politics Thread

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**jouso**

That's cool and that, but has anyone bothered to ask EFTA if they want the UK back in?

I mean, the same EFTA the UK founded then said, feth it, this is a failed experiment I'm going with the big boys.

**A Town Called Malus**

jouso wrote:
That's cool and that, but has anyone bothered to ask EFTA if they want the UK back in?

I mean, the same EFTA the UK founded then said, feth it, this is a failed experiment I'm going with the big boys.

This is an issue. The UK joining would massively throw off the balance of economic power between the members of the EFTA. The UK would be close to 5 times the economic weight of the current richest member (Norway).

**Future War Cultist**

Well a judge from the efta court thinks it’s a good idea.

Honestly, it was probably a mistake for us to have left it in the first place. In the past it also included Austria, Portugal and Finland.

Pure speculation on my part, but unless Italy sinks the euro sometime soon, I think there will come a time when all the non euro using eu countries will be made to either accept it or go, and I think EFTA is where they’ll go to.

But I’m getting distracted; I honestly think EFTA is the way to square the circle. It’s a compromise that satisfies everyone except the extremist of extremists. There is the issue of the imbalance in the size of us and the other states within it but I think that could be overcome.

**Kilkrazy**

EFTA membership requires a unanimous vote by the EFTA council (one representative from each member nation, i.e. four at the moment.)

There's no reason why the UK having a large economy is a threat to the others. Iceland has a tiny economy compared to Norway and is perfectly happy.

**jouso**

Kilkrazy wrote:
EFTA membership requires a unanimous vote by the EFTA council (one representative from each member nation, i.e. four at the moment.)

There's no reason why the UK having a large economy is a threat to the others. Iceland has a tiny economy compared to Norway and is perfectly happy.

It's not a matter of being a threat. The UK economy is over twice that of all 4 other members combined, its population 5 times the current combined population.

The UK will either have to accept a much minor role relative to its population and economy or the other members will have to basically agree that the UK will have the ultimate word.

Nº2 will be unacceptable to Norway and Switzerland, and nº1 is top reason for leaving for many brexiteers (they rule us from Brussels, our voice doesn't mean feth, etc).

**reds8n**

https://www.politico.eu/article/norwegian-pm-uk-cannot-cherry-pick-eu-membership/

**Kilkrazy**

Norwegian Prime Minister Erna Solberg wrote: pointed out that it (joining EFTA) would mean Britain continuing to abide by the four EU freedoms, including freedom of movement, as well as having no decision-making power in Brussels. “Then I should just ask why … should you leave the EU if you’re accepting that?” she said.

To be honest I agree with her, and that's why I personally would prefer to Remain, however I feel EFTA membership is a compromise position that might satisfy enough moderate Remainers and Leavers to get a majority in a referendum. For me, the economic argument is much power powerful than the soverignty argument, and EFTA allows a degree of trade sovereignty.

To put it a different way, the UK as a nation has to find a compromise position which satisfies enough Leavers and Remainers. That position certainly isn't Hard Brexit, and the government's various undecided "magical" solutions don't look like they will ever work.

**Crazyterran**

The Norway model reads like being in the EU, but without getting a say in the matter and agreeing to be dictated to by Brussels.

So worse than staying in.

**Future War Cultist**

We would still be consulted on future developments, and if I remember correctly, efta members could block them if they don’t like them.

We are also out of the customs union, giving us more flexiblity there.

We would also be out of the common fisheries policy and the common agricultural policy (yay!).

And we would have an immigration break that isn’t dependent on the other members giving us permission to use it.

And we’ll be less likely to end up in the Euro or Schengen or any of that. Plus I imagine our contributions will be much smaller too.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Withdrawing from the EU and joining EFTA will put a halt to any further integration. Thats good enough for me and satisfies my sovereignty complaint, if only partially.

**Kilkrazy**

That is a significant development.

Shadow Captain Edithae and Future War Culists are two of the most prominent Leavers in this forum.

If more of us Remainers can combine forces with you guys to get behind the EFTA idea, we will find the way forwards.

**jouso**

Future War Cultist wrote:
We would still be consulted on future developments, and if I remember correctly, efta members could block them if they don’t like them.

Much in the same way UK now opts out.

We are also out of the customs union, giving us more flexiblity there.

We would also be out of the common fisheries policy and the common agricultural policy (yay!).

And we would have an immigration break that isn’t dependent on the other members giving us permission to use it.

And we’ll be less likely to end up in the Euro or Schengen or any of that. Plus I imagine our contributions will be much smaller too.

Ask your farmers if they want to be part of CAP.

And no, your contributions will stay because the rebate ceases to apply. As we've mentioned before Norway's contribution per cápita now is higher than Britain's.

**Kilkrazy**

Norway is a richer per capita country than the UK.

**Future War Cultist**

Kilkrazy wrote:
That is a significant development.

Shadow Captain Edithae and Future War Culists are two of the most prominent Leavers in this forum.

If more of us Remainers can combine forces with you guys to get behind the EFTA idea, we will find the way forwards.

I’d like that very much.

**jouso**

Kilkrazy wrote:
Norway is a richer per capita country than the UK.

Of course, but UK wants more opt-ins that Norway, and opt outs where Norway doesn't have a choice.

That won't come cheap.

**Kilkrazy**

That's fine. It's better than crashing out. Britain's a rich country and can afford 40-50 billion to get the job done.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
O look!

Another ardent supporter of Westminster parliamentary sovereignty until it's pointed at him, when he refuses to appear to answer questions.

Cheat and hypocrite? Enema of the People? Were any of the Leave campaigns untainted?

You be the judge.

**Whirlwind**

Kilkrazy wrote:
That's fine. It's better than crashing out. Britain's a rich country and can afford 40-50 billion to get the job done.

At this point you may as well as stay in.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
O look!

Another ardent supporter of Westminster parliamentary sovereignty until it's pointed at him, when he refuses to appear to answer questions.

Cheat and hypocrite? Enema of the People? Were any of the Leave campaigns untainted?

You be the judge.

Did you mean 'enema', not that I disagree. I think I can answer the one true question. "Did you fund this because you personally thought you'd get much wealthier out of the process?"

**Kilkrazy**

Aaron Banks strikes me as someone with too much money and no good ideas of what to do with it, who instead gets his fun from being disruptive and "anti-establishment".

Another Brexy Bonus!

TL/DR: 75% drop in young Europeans applying to Au Pair agencies in the UK.

A lot of people will laugh and say this is a 1st World problem, which is true up to a point. But au pairs are a valuable form of child care for a lot of families, and perhaps more importantly, the system offers opportunities for international outreach, language learning and cultural exchange.

Full disclosure: I've never had an au pair and I don't actually know anyone who does.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

I might be tempted by the EFTA argument if I thought it was but a staging post to a clean Brexit a few years down the line, but the language makes me think that it's a Trojan Horse to take us back in the other direction.

After al, it's not much of a leap back into full EU membership...

None the less, two issues spring to mind.

1. Other EFTA members. We screwed them over back in the day, and I wouldn't blame them if they gave us the middle finger, and do they really want a giant boulder crashing into their peaceful swimming pool? The UK would hugely imbalance EFTA.

2. It's been my understanding over the years that the EU sees EFTA as a damn nuisance, and would love to absorbed it into the EU fold. Will the EU tolerate the UK fighting a guerrilla war against it from EFTA, sniping away from the side-lines and perhaps trying to lure in other EU members who might be uncomfortable by ever closer union?

The EU would be mad to let this happen and would tie us up in all sorts of red tape and conditions.

EFTA is but a pipe dream...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:
Aaron Banks strikes me as someone with too much money and no good ideas of what to do with it, who instead gets his fun from being disruptive and "anti-establishment".

Another Brexy Bonus!

TL/DR: 75% drop in young Europeans applying to Au Pair agencies in the UK.

A lot of people will laugh and say this is a 1st World problem, which is true up to a point. But au pairs are a valuable form of child care for a lot of families, and perhaps more importantly, the system offers opportunities for international outreach, language learning and cultural exchange.

Full disclosure: I've never had an au pair and I don't actually know anyone who does.

At the end of the article, it says they don't get paid minimum wage.

That's pure exploitation in my book.

**BaronIveagh**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

After al, it's not much of a leap back into full EU membership...

And you wouldn't want prosperity to accidentally happen after all. i mean, my god, what would the peasants do with money? They might not have to bend a knee to their better!

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

And another thing: much was said about Leave voters and the fact that they voted for Brexit because they were worried about Johnny Foreigner stealing their jobs and council houses.

But it's clear from Kilkrazy's article that Middle-Class Remain supporters were worried about losing the ability to exploit cheap nannies from Eastern Europe and losing access to their second homes in Tuscany.

Then again, what would you expect from these champagne socialists and Bollinger Bolsheviks....

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaronIveagh wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

After al, it's not much of a leap back into full EU membership...

And you wouldn't want prosperity to accidentally happen after all. i mean, my god, what would the peasants do with money? They might not have to bend a knee to their better!

And will we be seeing an application for EU membership forthcoming from the Seneca nation, if the EU's that good?

By every metric (life expectancy, economic prosperity etc etc ) Native Americans don't seem to be getting a good deal from the USA...

**Deadnight**

Hmm, I dated a New Zealand girl very briefly a few years back. She lived in London - her mate was an au pair, and did very well out of it. Being honest, she was far better off financially than I was at the time, and I was doing ok. She was easily earning more than £100 a week more than me, and I had a damned degree. Hers amounted to very decent wages for a young twenty something. And I spoke to her (and other au pairs too) about the job, she had quite a lot of power in being able to just walk out of situations that were exploitative or made her feel unsafe or used or mistreated etc.

I saw very little of what she did that could be considered anywhere close to 'exploited cheap nannies'.

**Future War Cultist**

I just got another letter from the car park. Funny, I haven’t heard from them in months. They’re now looking for £99 (down from the original £320) otherwise it’s off to court...even though the last six letters were also the ‘final warning’.

Is it even worth going to court for £99?

**Kilkrazy**

It costs £60 to enter a small claim, which can be up to £5,000, I think. You can also add the cost of entering the claim, and other reasonable costs. However, the worst that can happen is a judgement against you, which if you ignore it, then costs more time, effort and money to try and enforce it.

For example, the next step would be to try to obtain an order to garnishee your bank account, but first they have to find out the details of your account to be garnisheed, which it another task.

There's always the risk that the judgement would be in your favour, or the judge might find against you but not award full costs.

I am not a lawyer. I've just been involved in a few small claims cases over the years.

**Herzlos**

Not paying when ordered by a court is a terrible idea; an unsatisfied CCJ will screw your credit rating for 6 years.

Future War Cultist wrote:
I just got another letter from the car park. Funny, I haven’t heard from them in months. They’re now looking for £99 (down from the original £320) otherwise it’s off to court...even though the last six letters were also the ‘final warning’.

Is it even worth going to court for £99?

They might to make a point but they'll lose money even if they win. You stand to lose no more than just paying so I'd call their bluff.

If it goes to court and you lose, you can hand the about £150 cash and move on, know If it's cost them double that. If you win (which is pretty easy) you can get them to pay you your costs, and potentially damages for violating the data protection act.

**BaronIveagh**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

And will we be seeing an application for EU membership forthcoming from the Seneca nation, if the EU's that good?

By every metric (life expectancy, economic prosperity etc etc ) Native Americans don't seem to be getting a good deal from the USA...

i'd have to ask about it, since I doubt it's even occurred to anyone, but, hey, China lent us a Billion dollars, I wonder who much we can get from the EU?

**reds8n**

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/exclusive-emails-reveal-russian-links-of-millionaire-brexit-backer-arron-banks-6lf5xdp6h

Exclusive: Emails reveal Russian links of millionaire Brexit backer Arron Banks

Emails by Banks and his sidekick Andy Wigmore, shown to The Sunday Times, reveal an extensive web of links between Banks’s Leave.EU campaign and Russian officials.

They show they made repeated contact with officials to discuss business opportunities and issues of mutual interest throughout the referendum campaign and its aftermath.

In his book on the referendum, The Bad Boys of Brexit, and in another public statement, Banks claimed to have had only one meeting with Putin’s envoy Alexander Yakovenko, in September 2015.

But today The Sunday Times can reveal that the pair also had lunch with the ambassador just three days after they and Nigel Farage visited US president Donald Trump in New York in November 2016.

Last night Banks admitted that he handed over telephone numbers for members of Trump’s transition team to Russian officials.

Trump, whose campaign staff are under investigation by a special prosecutor probing whether they colluded with Moscow, stunned the world yesterday by calling for Russia to be readmitted to the G7 group of nations.

The 40,000 emails were obtained by the journalist Isabel Oakeshott, Banks’s ghostwriter on The Bad Boys of Brexit. She is now writing a book with Lord Ashcroft, a former treasurer of the Conservative Party, that covers Russian “hybrid warfare” techniques to influence western politics.

She came forward after her emails were “hacked”. They have now been passed to the House of Commons digital, culture, media and sport select committee, which is investigating Russian attempts to influence western politics with fake news.
The Sunday Times has also seen a 2,000-word account of the meetings written by Wigmore and has conducted several interviews with Banks.

Last night Banks downplayed the significance of the meetings and denied that Russian officials sought to influence his Leave.EU referendum campaign.

But the revelations are likely to trigger fresh investigations by the Electoral Commission and MPs into the conduct of the referendum and the extent of Russian influence.

"denied that Russian officials sought to influence his Leave.EU referendum campaign.2

uh huh.

of course.

https://twitter.com/VickerySec/status/1005285142686982145

The following is a matter of immense public interest and relevant to multiple international criminal and regulatory investigations:
Found a config file which appears to succinctly illustrate interplay between AIQ, Cambridge Analytica, and Breitbart.

**jouso**

BaronIveagh wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

And will we be seeing an application for EU membership forthcoming from the Seneca nation, if the EU's that good?

By every metric (life expectancy, economic prosperity etc etc ) Native Americans don't seem to be getting a good deal from the USA...

i'd have to ask about it, since I doubt it's even occurred to anyone, but, hey, China lent us a Billion dollars, I wonder who much we can get from the EU?

Since you aren't in Europe you'd need to ask some member to annex you first.

Ireland maybe?

**Da Boss**

Woo! We get to join the Imperialist club! At last we will be real Europeans.

**BaronIveagh**

jouso wrote:

Since you aren't in Europe you'd need to ask some member to annex you first.

Ireland maybe?

Sorry, much as I like the Irish, we'll pass on annexation by any more crazy white people. Maybe a trade deal like CETA though where we can sell you all the tobacco you could want tariff free.