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 Kilkrazy wrote:
The Home Office spent a lot of effort refusing 1,200 working visas for doctors from India only a couple of months ago, in order to achieve the immigration limit.

Well, heads should roll for that. I've been watching and reading a lot about India these days. The potential there is huge.

A lot of India's professional class are middle-class, English speaking, cricket lovers.

They're almost ready made to fit seamlessly into Britain.

Send forth the work visas.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
... ...

At least now, the government will have to roll up their sleeves and tackle the problem.

Why? What about leaving the EU will force them to tackle those issues? How has being in the EU prevented, in any way, us tackling those issues?

It was much too much effort to fill in the forms to apply for EU development funding for the depressed regions.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

What we got instead was doom and gloom. There are people in Britain who have nothing. Literally nothing to lose And Remain were saying that those people were going to lose money they never had?

You'd think that, but those very people are the ones that are going to be most badly hurt by Brexit. They are more likely to be relying on council/government funded services and manufacturing/service jobs. Trading gets hard and they may find their jobs lost. Economy gets damaged and they'll see service cuts. Tories get their way without the HRA and they'll get their rights taken away. The cost of their food, accomodation, energy etc will all go up.

They stand to gain almost nothing - none of their problems will be fixed by reducing migration.

Even if we stayed in the EU, wouldn't they face those problems anyway with automation on the rise?

Not really, no. We'd still have more jobs and services without.

At least now, the government will have to roll up their sleeves and tackle the problem.

Except it didn't before, so why would it do it now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The Home Office spent a lot of effort refusing 1,200 working visas for doctors from India only a couple of months ago, in order to achieve the immigration limit.

Well, heads should roll for that. I've been watching and reading a lot about India these days. The potential there is huge.

A lot of India's professional class are middle-class, English speaking, cricket lovers.

They're almost ready made to fit seamlessly into Britain.

Send forth the work visas.

You do realise that the work visas was the reason the UK veto'd the EU/India trade deal?

And that whilst a lot of them are middle class English speaking, there's a deep deep dislike for the UK government/establishment as a whole (from the days where we screwed them over), and the vast majority of the billion population are very poor thus can't afford to buy most of our stuff?

 Da Boss wrote:
".
I can see where it comes from, but why did no one stand up and point out how awesome the EU is? In the EU Ireland has absolutely transformed in my lifetime. My parents grew up in crushing poverty and the development that took place over their lifetimes, accelerated massively by us joining the EU, is staggering. My primary and national schools, the road outside my parents house, much of the structure of law that I grew up in, the french food I got to know as a kid, the currency in my pocket, all due to the influence of the EU.

Because the people in charge of convincing people to vote remain for the most part spent decades on a Trump-like "The EU is ripping us off" tirade while in government. Some times justified but many others used as a convenient foreign bogeyman to clean themselves of guilt "it's not us, the EU makes us do it":
- Rail privatisation
- Fishing rights
- Taking unlimited people from Eastern newcomers to the EU.
Etc etc

These things tend to stick in peoples' minds, especially with a very popular and motivated speakerphone in the gutter press.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I'm making the point that Remain MPs talked the talk but didn't walk the walk. What you need are people who will defend their principals and walk away if need be as a matter of honour.

Well yeah, that would be great. What an astute observation. I still don't see why you bother bringing it up continually, because we (the Remain supporting populace) can't just go out and get these wondrous people and install them into positions of power within parliament.

Or are you seriously suggesting that every Remainer MP should have just quit parliament when the referendum result came in?

https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1018852996623585280

Michael Gove admits leave was wrong to fuel immigration fears

still the lies have done their work now then, so we'll just hope all the stoked tensions go away as brexit turns out to be the abject failure it was always going to be all along.

I would like Turkey to join the EU but by 2016 they had already moved farther away from where we want them to be on human rights and so on.

Consquently the idea of Turkey joining the EU was pretty much a lie, but Farage's rivers of brown poster was the moment the campaign changed. It quite plainly yoked immigration and racism together.

This is not an accusation against Leave voters.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
You're only as good as your last referendum.

Putting the referendums on one side, does anyone think May's plan can work?

Firstly, can she get it through parliament?
Secondly, can she get it agreed with the EU?
Thirdly, can the magic border technology be invented and installed by Dec 2020?

Usually it's best to plan backwards from a date to work out whether the timescale is reasonable. So on this basis looking at a high level project plan:-

31st December 2020 - Go live date (as in it must be working fully else chaos ensues on 1st Jan 2021 - likely worse than just putting up 'normal' borders
December 2020 - Training of staff. Customs staff will need to be trained on the system. There will be superusers that likely have advanced sight. Usually things break here as there is a tendency not to ask people on the floor actually what happens.
October 2020 - December 2020. Provide details to businesses of the changes so they can prepare (really they need 6 months but I'm pushing things).
April 2020 - October 2020. Commissioning phase. This is the stress test stage of the work. Trying to iron out the bugs, the unexepcted consequences and we didn't realise people exported live ants in a wire box for aeroplane dynamics tests.
April 2019 - March 2020. Design and construct system. This includes gathering data as to what currently happens and what trade there is (much of which is hidden under free trade). Also 12 months assumes dedicated resources (expensive) so hence a contract you pay for.
April 2018 - March 2019. Procure a company to design and create a new system. It's not particularly efficient to do in house as it is a specific short term project (what do they do afterwards.
October 2017 - March 2018. Undertake key principles of the project, define outcome and goals etc.

Ahhhh. So really we should have started this process about 9 months ago to give a realistic chance of getting a good, workign piece of software out in time. Now you can shrink the training/commissioning period. And it is generally a large temptation by management to do such things. However I think we can all surmise how it ends up when you do.




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 reds8n wrote:
https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1018852996623585280

Michael Gove admits leave was wrong to fuel immigration fears

Spoiler:

still the lies have done their work now then, so we'll just hope all the stoked tensions go away as brexit turns out to be the abject failure it was always going to be all along.

Very convenient to say this when you have what you want. Not calling for a rerun though with actual evidence of course. Basically I'll support the racism and bigotry whilst it supports my cause.

Can anybody explain this? And what in God's name is happening to HMG?

By accepting Mogg's 4 amendments, May has torpedoed her own white paper!

If I'm reading this right, and I might be wrong, but it's illegal for the UK to leave the CU. It's also illegal for the UK to stay in the CU if this bill passes

I never thought I'd say this, but I feel sorry for the EU. Do they accept the unedited white paper or the amended white paper?


And what of the Irish backstop?


If the plan was to baffle the EU with bullgak, then the UK is the greatest negotiator in human history...


I doubt if it was meant, though...

This is a debacle.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Do they accept the unedited white paper or the amended white paper?

The previous version was never going to be accepted. Same for this one.

The sooner the UK realises they're just negotiating with themselves the better.

jouso wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Do they accept the unedited white paper or the amended white paper?

The previous version was never going to be accepted. Same for this one.

The sooner the UK realises they're just negotiating with themselves the better.

This has gone beyond Brexit or Remain. This is a question of basic competence at the heart of government. It's a debacle.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

jouso wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Do they accept the unedited white paper or the amended white paper?

The previous version was never going to be accepted. Same for this one.

The sooner the UK realises they're just negotiating with themselves the better.

This has gone beyond Brexit or Remain. This is a question of basic competence at the heart of government. It's a debacle.

It's what you voted for.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

jouso wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Do they accept the unedited white paper or the amended white paper?

The previous version was never going to be accepted. Same for this one.

The sooner the UK realises they're just negotiating with themselves the better.

This has gone beyond Brexit or Remain. This is a question of basic competence at the heart of government. It's a debacle.

May has more interest in her position and that of the party. She is banking on the Remainer side being too weak (and historically have shown to be) to oppose the changes even though they make the possibility of a full hard Wrexit much more likely. They EU are unlikely to accept the changes. 27 countries collecting taxes for one country would be a logistical nightmare and simply won't be accepted. Nor is it reciprocal.

The EU will also start wondering who is actually in charge. If the UK Government can't come to an agreement and then not immediately be changed by the frothing lunatic element of the party then it shows May has no power in government at all. It will also embolden these frothing lunatics as they know May will cave to more demands. The ardent remainers keep kicking the can down the road thinking next time they can make a difference without ruining the Tory party. Which will never happen.

If you have to red pen your own legislation within a few minutes then you know there are problems. And that is before the EU say no to a lot of it.

jouso wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Do they accept the unedited white paper or the amended white paper?

The previous version was never going to be accepted. Same for this one.

The sooner the UK realises they're just negotiating with themselves the better.

Dude...

We're two years in and two months to go...

Give them a chance...

 Kilkrazy wrote:
In other news, I am very pleased to see that Scotland is going to get a space port!

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/16/spaceport-receives-go-ahead-on-scottish-peninsula

That’s awesome. I wonder will they offer deals on getting your ashes fired into space? Surely that’s a must for any 40k fan.

Have you guys also seen that the solution to all the Tory infighting is to go on holidays 5 days early? Friggin' hilarious. That is like when I am having a bad lesson of a thursday afternoon and I start considering letting the students leave five minutes early just so I can have a break. I don't do it, because I am a *achem achem* serious professional, but I guess there are not many of those in the HoC eh?

Christ what a shambles. As DINLT says, what about the Irish Backstop? We are practically screaming at the UK government to sort it and... it just goes on.

When started reading the paragraph on the blog about the recess, I initially thought they were going to vote to cancel it in the name of getting the best outcome for Britain, forgoing their holidays in the national interest. Bit stupid of me, eh?

 Da Boss wrote:
When started reading the paragraph on the blog about the recess, I initially thought they were going to vote to cancel it in the name of getting the best outcome for Britain, forgoing their holidays in the national interest. Bit stupid of me, eh?

Pfft, what next? Them not voting to give themselves pay rises?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Can anybody explain this?

Yep, it's very simple. (Again) There isn't a clear majority in parliament for any specific Brexit plan, so the Govt has to keep twisting to try to present their plan as acceptable to the gretest number of MPs. When the Hard Brexiteers threatened to pull away unless they got their 4 amendments the Bill was going to be DOA so No.10 looked at the amendments, decided they could at least pretend they were in line with the white paper and are now trying again to show something to parliament that will get the votes needed.

I don't know how many times this political paralysis can be explained to be honest.

First one passed by three votes. Man, those Tory rebels, so fearsome.

It's somewhat frustrating to watch cries of "democracy" allow a few dozen backbench MPs dictate policy to the govt. and throw the country onto the scrapheap.

Say what you want, but nobody does understatement better than the British.

 Riquende wrote:
It's somewhat frustrating to watch cries of "democracy" allow a few dozen backbench MPs dictate policy to the govt. and throw the country onto the scrapheap.

Backbench rebellions have saved this country in the past. 1940 and the ousting of Neville Chamberlain being the prime example. Fair enough, you don't agree with Brexit, but I'm glad that such a mechanism is theoretically there if the nation ever needed it.

 Riquende wrote:
It's somewhat frustrating to watch cries of "democracy" allow a few dozen backbench MPs dictate policy to the govt. and throw the country onto the scrapheap.

Lol and May survuves another day by caving in, but only by three votes. Can't be long now.

Now the EU have something less than was what was originally proposed. The White paper is no longer relevant and we are back to a confusing mess of a discussion where May has to try and agree something that the EU will never agree to. Which is exactly what the hardline nutcases want. Force a completely impossible position. It also shows why the EU staying quiet was a good idea. After all if you expect the Tories to change their mind after week then what is it going to be like after a month, a year or three years. I expect the EU to be even more hardlined after this travisty.

These are worrying times for Britain. It's an utter shambles in Westminster.

The Tory party is now officially engaged in a civil war. It's out in the open now. Another government minister has resigned. Blue on blue 'killings' as they're calling it on twitter...


Labour are riven by their own factions. The Lib Dems are irrelevant, there's trouble in Ireland, and only the SNP show any unity or cohesion, but given what we all know what they stand for, and I am a member

When was the last time we had this situation? Pre-American Revolution? Irish Home rule bills? Corn laws? 1930s and the national government?

I honestly don't know...

So the White Paper is ripped up before the EU has even had time to comment on it. Now Raab will have to go and explain to Barnier that what they sent him is different and could he look at the new version. What a farce.

How can the EU make a deal with these people? You have no idea how long any deal will last, or how they are interpreting any wording, or how seriously they are taking any of it.

I think no deal crash out is getting likelier by the day, and that should terrify us all. I just hope the Irish government has proper contingencies in place. I doubt it.

When may was first elected, and with a mix of remainers and leavers in the cabinet, I thought that at least they'd be able to mitigate the worst excess' of a hard Brexit. That was clearly bollocks.

What I realised around the time of Article 50 was that actually this whole affair had been handed to exactly the wrong people. Leavers should have firmly been in control. Only they had the enthusiasm for this project, and in order for it to have any credibility they should have taken the reins.

They would have been given all the opportunities to make this a success, and pulled the country with them. Now we stare a few pretty grim alternatives.

1. May's plan, a soft Brexit that leaves us shackled to the EU with no say and little influence
2. A hard Brexit with all the issues that brings
3. Staying in the EU and cancelling Brexit with the serious political and social issues that would now bring.

I'm at a loss for a way forward tbh, as now even staying in the EU would likely just kick this can down the road with the whole relationship destroyed domestically for a generation.
Feth rerunning the arguments all over again, we know it's a fething stupid idea, but it's done now. Give it to the people who wanted it, and make them own it and prove they're right and that it can be successful. That's how utterly despondent and desperate I feel now.

There is a 4th option: EFTA/EEA

but Parliament needs some courage to do that...

I want Brexit. Make no mistake. But I want it done properly. And this lot are clearly not up to the task.

If they feth it up, Remain could hijack the whole process and I get feth all.

This option buys us a few years, heals a divided country, keeps Ireland calm, and is something that could pass muster in Brussels...

I am willing to compromise on this. I knew Westminster couldn't organise a funeral in a graveyard, but God almighty, I didn't know they were this bad. None of us did...

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


I am willing to compromise on this. I knew Westminster couldn't organise a funeral in a graveyard, but God almighty, I didn't know they were this bad. None of us did...

Bollocks. We told you so.

I did not expect Westminster to be this shambolic either. I have been consistently shocked at how hollow the political and media establishment in the UK have become.

 Knockagh wrote:

That’s awesome. I wonder will they offer deals on getting your ashes fired into space? Surely that’s a must for any 40k fan.

I'm going more the Golden Throne route.