UK & EU Politics Thread

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**Riquende**

My view is that the EU is a centrist organisation that tries to stave off the excesses off both hard right and left. This has led it to be assailable from populist movements from both ends of the political spectrum.

**Kilkrazy**

Well, anyway.

The point is that EFTA membership seems to be an acceptable format for keen Leavers such as DINLT and Future War Cultist. It's acceptable to me as a Remainer. It probably could enjoy a majority in the country and in Parliament.

There needs to be a general election to conclusively kick out the current Conservative government which is dead set against EFTA.

How are we going to get it done?

**Sarouan**

Kilkrazy wrote:

How are we going to get it done?

Maybe you should start to manifest in front of your parlament or something. Go in the streets. Force them to do it.

**Herzlos**

n/m please delete

**Inquisitor Gideon**

Kilkrazy wrote:
Well, anyway.

The point is that EFTA membership seems to be an acceptable format for keen Leavers such as DINLT and Future War Cultist. It's acceptable to me as a Remainer. It probably could enjoy a majority in the country and in Parliament.

There needs to be a general election to conclusively kick out the current Conservative government which is dead set against EFTA.

How are we going to get it done?

Bigger question there is rather than kick them out, who are you going to get into replace them? Corbyn? He's proved to be about as adept as May. Lib Dems? How are they sitting right now? Hell, I'd take the Green Party or Monster Raving Looney Party at this point.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Kilkrazy wrote:
Well, anyway.

The point is that EFTA membership seems to be an acceptable format for keen Leavers such as DINLT and Future War Cultist. It's acceptable to me as a Remainer. It probably could enjoy a majority in the country and in Parliament.

There needs to be a general election to conclusively kick out the current Conservative government which is dead set against EFTA.

How are we going to get it done?

Too many obstacles against another General election for at least 1 year.

1. Lack of cash for Labour and the SNP. I doubt if the Lib Dems are throwing piles of banknotes at each other either.

2. Fixed Term Parliament Act. We could end up with the ludicrous situation of the Government saying it had no confidence in itself.

3. Voter fatigue.

4. The Tories determination to hang on to the bitter end.

5. Parliamentary timetable.

6. Changing government on the eve of Brexit would be seen as Kamikaze by many.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
Well, anyway.

The point is that EFTA membership seems to be an acceptable format for keen Leavers such as DINLT and Future War Cultist. It's acceptable to me as a Remainer. It probably could enjoy a majority in the country and in Parliament.

There needs to be a general election to conclusively kick out the current Conservative government which is dead set against EFTA.

How are we going to get it done?

Bigger question there is rather than kick them out, who are you going to get into replace them? Corbyn? He's proved to be about as adept as May. Lib Dems? How are they sitting right now? Hell, I'd take the Green Party or Monster Raving Looney Party at this point.

Lib Dems have 12 MPs out of 650. The Greens have 1 MP.

If you're looking for them to form a government, you've come to the wrong place.

**Herzlos**

Parliament closing until September means we're realistically not going to get a GE until after we're meant to have finalised our position with the EU.

But I almost suspect the Tory plan is to commit to something, trigger a GE and hope that Labour end off being the ones to carry the can. A few years of Labour government would very much be worth avoiding this gakstorm.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Herzlos wrote:
Parliament closing until September means we're realistically not going to get a GE until after we're meant to have finalised our position with the EU.

But I almost suspect the Tory plan is to commit to something, trigger a GE and hope that Labour end off being the ones to carry the can. A few years of Labour government would very much be worth avoiding this gakstorm.

But what if we get another hung Parliament? And that's quit feasible. Positions are entrenched and October and November are bad months for weather = lower turnout.

A general election might not solve anything.

**Da Boss**

A GE is not really practicable at this stage. You already held up negotiations with a farcical snap election (that really, really should have been done before Article 50 was triggered, for God's sake).

Having another one now before the deadline is just madness. It would dramatically increase the chances of No Deal. Do you think the political parties would engage in an honest discussion about reality with the electorate? Or would they just promise, along with a compliant media, pie in the sky nonsense solutions which will not be accepted by the EU?

I think it is still possible to prevent a No Deal, but we need to either extend or pause the negotiations, which requires a political solution to the question of the European elections and budget, or the UK needs to come to its bloody senses and put forward a proposal the EU can accept. If no such proposal exists, then it is No Deal, it seems.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

It would dramatically increase the chances of No Deal.

Has it occurred you and everybody else, that there are those in the Tory party who would happily engineer an Autumn GE, just to bring about this situation?

It's not beyond the realms of possibility.

**jouso**

Future War Cultist wrote:
jouso wrote:
r_squared wrote:
It does fit with the current right wing narrative of victimhood and identity politics;

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/20/brexiteers-betrayal-britain-america

It means that no matter what, if Brexit fails it's because of remainers or the EU, and nothing to do with Brexiteers themselves, despite never presenting a plan or alternative apart from flouncing away like a stroppy teenage girl.

I saw this on twitter this morning.

For the record, there are a number of leavers with a credible plan. Me, for example. It’s just that we aren’t in a position to do anything about it.

There were people like EFTA4Britain and a few other fringe groups who have been in this EFTA bandwagon the whole time, but allow me to ask you a question:

Do you think if the EFTA solution had been on the ticket the referendum would it have won? I don't think so.

So, the pro-EFTA groups trying to raise their collective head above the noise IMHO still should suffer guilt by association. It's only because they bundled themselves with the anti-EU, anti-immigration hard brexiteers that they can claim theirs is the lesser evil.

As a prominent Basque politician put it, some people shake the tree (these were the days when ETA was active) and others pick up the apples.

In this case the hard Brexiteers are shaking the tree, and pro-EFTA are now trying to pick the apples trying to look like the sensible option.

**Da Boss**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
It would dramatically increase the chances of No Deal.

Has it occurred you and everybody else, that there are those in the Tory party who would happily engineer an Autumn GE, just to bring about this situation?

It's not beyond the realms of possibility.

It begins to look more and more like the Hard Brexiteers are trying to engineer a hard exit. And the Remainers and Soft Brexiteers in Parliament are absolutely useless at opposing them.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

jouso wrote:
Future War Cultist wrote:
jouso wrote:
r_squared wrote:
It does fit with the current right wing narrative of victimhood and identity politics;

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/20/brexiteers-betrayal-britain-america

It means that no matter what, if Brexit fails it's because of remainers or the EU, and nothing to do with Brexiteers themselves, despite never presenting a plan or alternative apart from flouncing away like a stroppy teenage girl.

I saw this on twitter this morning.

For the record, there are a number of leavers with a credible plan. Me, for example. It’s just that we aren’t in a position to do anything about it.

There were people like EFTA4Britain and a few other fringe groups who have been in this EFTA bandwagon the whole time, but allow me to ask you a question:

Do you think if the EFTA solution had been on the ticket the referendum would it have won? I don't think so.

So, the pro-EFTA groups trying to raise their collective head above the noise IMHO still should suffer guilt by association. It's only because they bundled themselves with the anti-EU, anti-immigration hard brexiteers that they can claim theirs is the lesser evil.

As a prominent Basque politician put it, some people shake the tree (these were the days when ETA was active) and others pick up the apples.

In this case the hard Brexiteers are shaking the tree, and pro-EFTA are now trying to pick the apples trying to look like the sensible option.

It's no more less credible than Remain supporters who urged us to stay in the EU and reform it from within. As if that would ever happen.

David Cameron went to Brussels and asked for nothing. He got half of that.

**Mozzyfuzzy**

You are aware that Cameron took the UK out of the central voting bloc, that he then had to negotiate with?

Would you be inclined to offer things to the bloke who had just made it harder for you?

**Whirlwind**

Da Boss wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
It would dramatically increase the chances of No Deal.

Has it occurred you and everybody else, that there are those in the Tory party who would happily engineer an Autumn GE, just to bring about this situation?

It's not beyond the realms of possibility.

It begins to look more and more like the Hard Brexiteers are trying to engineer a hard exit. And the Remainers and Soft Brexiteers in Parliament are absolutely useless at opposing them.

Both sides are putting party before country. This benefits the hard right nut cases like JRM though. Tories are currently proppoed up by an elderly, white, english support that don't like foreigners, wish for the empire back and thought it was much better in the 50's. These mainly came from UKIP when their vote collapsed as the Tories lurched to the hard right of politics. The Tory party faithful also have these types in large numbers.

A leadership contest would likely see a hard right lunatic be put in power as PM. A soft Wrexit will likely see vast swathes of the hard right newUKIP supporters going back to UKIP. That would damn the Tory party.

The Tory remainers don't want to see Labour get in at any cost.

Hence the hard right side has an intrinsic advantage. They can keep peddling their nonsense and it won't affect either their PM aspirations and likely maintain the newUKIP nutcases support. The Remainers however can't rely ont hat support - if they rebel then they potentially lose both at least a partially remainer PM (despite the bigotry tendancies) and/or an election. Hence they tend to wobble at the important votes anf you get silly occurences like voting to stay in the European Medicines agreement, bu vote against a customs union which is necessary if you want to stay part of the European Medicines agreement.

**Future War Cultist**

@ jouso

I think if EFTA had been the option, the result would have been pretty much the same. For all we know, Leave’s share may have even increased, due to “reluctant” Remainers seeing that there’s another way. I do know some people who only voted to stay for the sake of simplicity rather than for any love for the EU. But this is all conjecture.

I sorely regret that dickheads like Davis and Boris are at the forefront though. They may reject EFTA but that’s only because they’re pandering to the extremists. I’ve been putting the EFTA idea to everyone I know and almost all of them are up for it. Even my Remainer brother and the guys I used to work with out on the bins (‘extreme’ brexiteers) are open to it.

**jouso**

Future War Cultist wrote:
@ jouso

I think if EFTA had been the option, the result would have been pretty much the same. For all we know, Leave’s share may have even increased, due to “reluctant” Remainers seeing that there’s another way. I do know some people who only voted to stay for the sake of simplicity rather than for any love for the EU. But this is all conjecture.

Honestly I find it extremely difficult to galvanise an electorate the way Leave did by saying "we will still pay to the EU, very likely even more because the rebate will gone, we will still be bound by 90%+ of their rules and regulations, we will still have to accept EU migrants in exactly the same way and still probably will have to erect some sort of physical border in Ireland"

Not exactly evocative. EFTA is only getting a second look now because it's the least worse option after the government interpreted a pure binary "leave" as a mandate.

**Jadenim**

Gotta remember that Leave were promising to remain in the customs union and various other things before the referendum and were absolutely not promoting the hard Brexit that they are currently pursuing. And they wouldn’t have won the vote either without that.

I.E. they lied.

**Kilkrazy**

Leave lied about a lot of things and the government is still lying.

**Whirlwind**

jouso wrote:
Future War Cultist wrote:
@ jouso

I think if EFTA had been the option, the result would have been pretty much the same. For all we know, Leave’s share may have even increased, due to “reluctant” Remainers seeing that there’s another way. I do know some people who only voted to stay for the sake of simplicity rather than for any love for the EU. But this is all conjecture.

Honestly I find it extremely difficult to galvanise an electorate the way Leave did by saying "we will still pay to the EU, very likely even more because the rebate will gone, we will still be bound by 90%+ of their rules and regulations, we will still have to accept EU migrants in exactly the same way and still probably will have to erect some sort of physical border in Ireland"

Not exactly evocative. EFTA is only getting a second look now because it's the least worse option after the government interpreted a pure binary "leave" as a mandate.

The other thing is that the more generalised negative vibe over EU immigrants has subsided and switched to people realising just how much of a contribution they add to society. Hence the UKIP scare tactics are unlikely to work again and are likely to be seen as what they are, racist and bigoted scaremongering.

On an aside. I see there government are trying to justify the use of children as spies. Now I generally disagree with DDavis, but he is right in saying this should never happen. You are putting children at risk that likely have little understanding of the consequences of what they are doing and what it might lead to.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/20/child-spies-used-only-when-very-necessary-says-downing-street

**reds8n**

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-wont-budge-rent-12955434

Boris Johnson won't budge from his rent-free taxpayer-funded £20m mansion for WEEKS
Government says the former Foreign Secretary is being allowed to stay in the luxurious official residence for "a few weeks" while he continues to rake in rent on plush Islington pad

Boris Johnson has refused to budge from his £20million taxpayer-funded mansion, as Downing Street admitted he could still be there for “weeks”.

There is growing anger as he remains at the luxury official residence, despite resigning as Foreign Secretary 12 days ago.

The Tory MP was today spotted sheepishly leaving the mansion, with two large suitcases packed in an awaiting car for him.

But wife Marina Wheeler was understood to still be in the home today.

A No10 spokeswoman said: “He’s leaving within the next few weeks.”

Mr Johnson refused to answer questions on his living situation when confronted by the Mirror at the property.

Two taxpayer-funded, unmarked police cars with four staff waited for two hours at One Carlton Gardens in Central London as the MP readied himself.

Mr Johnson was whisked away in a Jaguar, with the suitcases in a 4x4 BMW.

He has raked in thousands from renting out a home just four miles away in Islington, North London, while he lived rent-free in the mansion.

Grenfell Tower survivor Aalya Moses, 57, who spent months cooped up in a hotel room as she awaited a new home after the blaze, hit out at the former Cabinet minister.

She said: “If he’s still living in there I think it’s disgusting, it’s outrageous.

....

It also emerged Mr Johnson may have enjoyed the grace-and-favour property without paying tax.

Ministers are usually expected to declare such accommodation as a taxable benefit on the department’s annual report, according to the Treasury.

Mr Johnson, who has lived there since being made Foreign Secretary two years ago, has not.

The Treasury said: “Government ministers occupying official residences by virtue of their jobs meet the statutory conditions for an exemption from a tax charge on the property itself.

“However, tax is charged on associated services, such as heating, lighting, repairs...

"The charge of the benefit limited to 10% of the net earnings from the ministerial salary (not including their parliamentary salary).”
HMRC declined to comment on individual cases.

The Foreign Office failed to respond to the Mirror for comment, and to confirm whether Mr Johnson had vacated Carlton Gardens.

The Foreign Office leases the mansion from the Crown Estate, which looks after the Queen’s properties. Officials paid £482,341 a year in rent on it in 2015.

If this has not gone up since then the Foreign Office is paying £1,321.48 a day for the property.

That means as of yesterday, the taxpayer had paid £14,536 for it since Mr Johnson quit over Brexit on July 9.

The Georgian mansion is considered the most plush of all the ministers’ grace-and-favour pads.

Well fair play to Boris for showing it is apparently possible to leave and somehow still maintain the same level of access one had before.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-44853389/tory-mp-anna-soubry-attacks-wealthy-brexiteers

damn straight.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Not in the least surprised about Johnson.

In other news, Barnier has done a De Gaulle on us with Non Non Non

and Mogg is predicting a no deal Brexit. He welcomes WTO terms.

Will be an interesting Autumn...

**A Town Called Malus**

Anyone who welcomes WTO terms is a moron.

Barnier has stuck to the same position that has been held throughout, you cannot pick and choose what parts of the EU benefits you want. That the UK government still hasn't accepted that fact is ludicrous.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Anyone who welcomes WTO terms is a moron.

Barnier has stuck to the same position that has been held throughout, you cannot pick and choose what parts of the EU benefits you want. That the UK government still hasn't accepted that fact is ludicrous.

Well, it's irresistible force meets immovable object. I think we're crashing out unless the EFTA/EEA compromise is put on the table.

I would advise people to batten down the hatches.

**reds8n**

..which is odd as we were told over and over again that this whole situation would be fine, easiest negotiations ever and we'll all be better off.

.. oh christ almighty

Spoiler:

**Future War Cultist**

Yeah, we need to stop the process, clear out that dreck from the Cabinet and start over. They're the most idiotic incompetent cretins I’ve ever seen. They remind me of cowboy builders or something.

There was a simple way to begin the process of decoupling ourselves from the EU but no, they had to start doing it the stupid way and in the process completely humiliate the whole country in front of those smug Eurocrat bastards.

**GoatboyBeta**

Yet it looks like we are stuck with the current "government"

Right now I'm hoping that David Davis was right about something for a change and it wont be as bad as Mad Max

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Future War Cultist wrote:
Yeah, we need to stop the process, clear out that dreck from the Cabinet and start over. They're the most idiotic incompetent cretins I’ve ever seen. They remind me of cowboy builders or something.

There was a simple way to begin the process of decoupling ourselves from the EU but no, they had to start doing it the stupid way and in the process completely humiliate the whole country in front of those smug Eurocrat bastards.

Exactly.

Despite the compromise deal that we're supporting, we're still anti-EU through and through. Cut us open and we'll bleed Brexit.

We've had to be pragmatic though. We know that the Tories ain't up to it, if they ever were, and a chaotic crash could easily allow Remain to seize the day and reverse the whole process.

So we play the long game and remind ourselves that half a Brexit is better than no Brexit.

I've been wanting to leave the EEC/EU for decades. What's an extra 2-3 years...

**Da Boss**

Reds8n, thanks for posting that "Remain Indoors" picture. I went and found the videos. Amazing.

**SeanDrake**

GoatboyBeta wrote:
Yet it looks like we are stuck with the current "government" Right now I'm hoping that David Davis was right about something for a change and it wont be as bad as Mad Max

Yes Davis was inadvertently correct it won't be like Mad Max........ but only because we won't have any petrol.

Although I can picture mad Moggy and Nanny on a tandem with a chainsaw brings a new meaning to "biker" gangs.

As for the bluster and bs from Brexiters I will put money down that by this time next year if we crashed out you will struggle to find more than a handful of brexit voters as suddenly they all voted remain.

There is no almost out of the EU at this stage were either in or were a 3rd world country.... thanks to Brexit voters hating straight bananas we get to live in a Banana Republic/Monarchy.

At this point our best hope if the Tory feth wits get there way is that were declared a failed state and the UN move in to save us.