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 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
For the record, I still believe in Brexit. But I want it done properly. I'm adopting the FDR approach to solving problems. Try something, and if it doesn't work, try something else. Flexible. Pragmatic. Exactly what we need right now. What we don't need is Ultras on both sides who will scupper the nation!

But you're one of the Ultras. Your pragmatic approach is that since you fear a shock brexit will bring us straight back into the EU, you want to go EEA to try and sneak out later. You haven't changed anything based on any of the facts.

The Tories and May are clearly out of their depth, and the fantasy WTO option as offered by Mogg and Redwood is weapons grade bollocks.

Both known before the vote, except for the names of the proponents and proposals. Every "solution" is either hugely damaging or weapons grade bollocks"

Similary, sweatshop millionaires on the Remain side who offer up fantasies of People's referendums is pie in the sky nonsense.

What? Can you name a sweatshop millinaire on the Remain side? I know theres a few on the Leave side.

People's referendum? As opposed to what? Does he think it was cats and dogs voting in the last one?

Peoples vote, as in to express the will of the people rather than pressing on. It's a bit of a misnomer I know, but it needs to be called something.

What do I want from Brexit? Trade and sovereignty, whilst recognising that in this globalised world that 100% of that is probably no longer realistic. But even the EU follows rules from somebody: UN bodies, WTO etc etc

That sounds like a good argument for staying in. We get lots of trade and lots of sovereignty by being at the table where the decisions are made.

As long as we can grab back as much as we can, that'll do me in the short to medium term.

But we're throwing both away. There's no conceivable way we'll get more trade outside of the EU, and unless we go the North Korea route, we're not going to be gaining any new sovereignty - we'll be free to do what we're told.

What I don't want is a minute longer of the EU's United States of Europe that they seem hell bent on adopting

Why not? The United States of America work pretty well.

From a strategy viewpoint, we get back so much from EEA/EFTA and in the long term, we can properly strike an immigration deal with the EU, because even EU members recognise something has to be done.

Hows that going to work then?

We also get so much back from the compromise position: farming, fisheries, free from defence initiaitves, justice home affairs, and a lot of latititude to strike our own deals as we see fit. We can also tailor country specific protocols in the long term to suit us.

I'm not following this part either.

And if there's any nations such as Denmark, who have always been uneasy about the Euro and further integration, we can possibly get them to join us.

We're toxic now. No-one is going to want to join us. Denmark have been doing what we were, resisting this stuff from inside; they are perfectly happy in the EU. Just like we were.

The UK could be a beacon for the sort of free trade we envisaged when we first helped create EFTA.

With who?

The EU is decades ahead of us with free trade agreements, covering far more of the globe than we will. They get away with it because of their size and inertia. We're starting from less than nothing (since post Empire we've got a pretty bad reputation in a lot of the world).

IMO, this deal would command a commons majority, a country majority, would solve problems, and calm business. And i say, 15 years time, if we ain;t happy, we plan from a position of strength.

EEA? Every statement there is wrong. It won't command a majority anywhere because it's bollocks and doesn't satisfy anyone. It won't solve any of our problems (immigration, trade, Eire border, poor governance). We won't be in a position of strength either; whatever happens, 15 years on the EU will have recovered better than us and will be happy for us to rejoin on their terms.

Again, I say my great fear is a disaster crash next Spring, Remain take over, and we're back in the EU. I support the compromise deal, becuase half a Brexit is better than no Brexit, and any port in a storm.

But why is half out better? Are you only fearing Re-join taking over because you realise than the Brexit you want is a clusterfeth of epic proportions and you want to follow the frog boiling approach?

Remain and Leave fanatics will try and torpedo this, but to the moderates I say, hold fast.

Why?

Does the EEA/EFTA option command a dakka majority?

I doubt it. It's the current flavour for the Brexiteers, because it's a foot out the door, but it still solves no problems, makes noones lives better and costs us dearly.

We are all democrats. Let's respect the referendum, heal the nation, and talke the pragmatic, middle ground, like the sensible adults we all are.

If you actually want to be a democrat, then you should be jumping up and down for a 2nd referendum. It'll either cement people towards your destructive path, or kill the whole thing off (it could go either way - the cognative dissonance on the Leave side is phenomenal, now I appreciate how Hitler became so powerful). Hopefully it'll give the government a better idea of what people want and an actual mandate.

I think a "People's Vote" is a good name for the proposed second referundum.

It's being proposed and supported by the people, not by a dodgy Conservative government trying to win back UKIP voters.

There is clear and growing evidence from polls that the tide has turned against Brexit, for a number of reasons:

1. More people are now aware that Leave.EU told a lot of lies.
2. Plus, the campaign has become morally and legally tainted by its collusion with Russia, Cambridge Analytica, and illegal financial practices.
3. Every week brings new evidence of how Brexit will be detrimental to the economy and the UK's position in the world.
4. Worse still, all but the keenest Leavers have seen how incompetently the goverment has handled the whole business.

We need either a general election, or a second referendum (preferably both) before the Tories plunge the UK into chaos.

Any people's vote is doomed to fail for as long as it has the support of a certain war criminal by the name of Anthony Blair, the man who destroyed Libya (Call me Dave) and a weasel by the name of N.Clegg who used to hang around Sheffield and scrounge good money from an unsuspecting public.

For al the wretchedness of the Leave side, and as always I'm happy to attack my own side, we do have our share of spivs and speculators,

there's a world of difference between having your hand in the piggy bank for a few grand, and 400,000 dead in the rubble of Iraq.

Your allies are toxic. Ours are just dodgy. Big difference.


@Herzlos. I disagree with most of that. Pragmatism, not idealism, are my watchwords for the time being.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Remain and Leave fanatics will try and torpedo this, but to the moderates I say, hold fast.

Does the EEA/EFTA option command a dakka majority?

We are all democrats. Let's respect the referendum, heal the nation, and talke the pragmatic, middle ground, like the sensible adults we all are.

]

Please stop these ad hominem attacks. You are not the moderate. You are just trying to push for as much as you can now you accept that leaving the EU was a stupid idea. You are already trying to blaim someone else for messing it up, as if someone else would have been able to get a better deal faster, when this is exactly what Remain said would happen. The Tory’s are a mess at the moment, but they are not messing up the negotiation, they are asking for what they were told was impossible, but people like you ignored it and claimed it was project fear.

I'm attacking fanatics in the media on both sides, and not individual dakka members.

People are sceptical of my new stance, and to everybody i say, I understand that scepticism. I had a plan that I wished were implemented, but it never happened.

So I look at the reality of what's happening now, assess the facts, and plan accordingly.

It's FDR in the 1930s. Try something, if it doesn't work, try something new. I'm open, I'm prepared to be bold, I'm flexible, and I'm willing to work with the other side for a compromise that gives everybody something. None of us will get 100% of what we want, but that's the nature of compromise.

Again, I urge people to write to their MPs to show their support for EEA/EFTA and write letters to your local newspaper in support of it.

"Try something". If you don't have GOOD idea what works it's not worth trying something. Randomly abandoning what works for random stuff trying to work while wrecking country is something only fanatics would recommend.

But then again not surprised from somebody who openly has admitted he doesn't care if UK goes back to stone age as long as it leaves EU. Fanatics are fanatics.

tneva82 wrote:
"Try something". If you don't have GOOD idea what works it's not worth trying something. Randomly abandoning what works for random stuff trying to work while wrecking country is something only fanatics would recommend.

But then again not surprised from somebody who openly has admitted he doesn't care if UK goes back to stone age as long as it leaves EU. Fanatics are fanatics.

I wouldn't say I have had a Damascus conversion, but I'm adopting a new approach based on facts and logic, rather than emotionalism.

reds8n might be on to something with his graphs and pie charts.

The past is the past, and we all had different views, and wanted different things. But that is then, and this is now. So we assess the situation and adapt and plan accordingly.

33 million people voted in 2016. A historic level. To say that the votes of either side don't matter and that we shouldn't implement the result, would damage British politics for decades.

The vast majority of British people, democratic to a man and woman, want to see the result implemented.

The Tories are not up to it. 2 years went up in smoke.

There are fantasists on both sides, Vince Cable and Nigel Farage to name two. The former acts as though the referendum never happened, the latter gives us a WTO kamikaze plan.

Both men are well served in their respective media outlets by a cabal of buffoons.

The result was narrow, 52/48, the nation needs a healing hand, let's calm business, and plan from a position of strength in EEA/EFTA, rather than with the sword of Damocles hanging over us.

With our very limited powers, let's write to our MPs and local newspapers. Spread the word.

Again, I extend the hand of compromise to my fellow members. Move off the extremes. Join me in the middle ground, the pragmatic solution.

In defeat defiance, in victory, magnanimity. I have chosen to be magnanimous to my fellow country men and women.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Any people's vote is doomed to fail for as long as it has the support of a certain war criminal by the name of Anthony Blair, the man who destroyed Libya (Call me Dave) and a weasel by the name of N.Clegg who used to hang around Sheffield and scrounge good money from an unsuspecting public.

Then support the gskking referendum and shut all those remainers up!

There a good opinion piece on The Independent.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/second-referendum-brexit-final-say-julian-dunkerton-peoples-vote-nigel-farage-a8498546.html

It makes the point that there is already a groundswell of pressure for a "people's vote" even though none of the main parties have yet got behind it.

In other Brexy Bonus news, Ford and Maclaren have warned of the dangers of a no deal Brexit.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-ford-car-warning-uk-politicians-take-action-protect-business-leave-eu-a8498131.html

Herzlos wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Any people's vote is doomed to fail for as long as it has the support of a certain war criminal by the name of Anthony Blair, the man who destroyed Libya (Call me Dave) and a weasel by the name of N.Clegg who used to hang around Sheffield and scrounge good money from an unsuspecting public.

Then support the gskking referendum and shut all those remainers up!

Too bad that is too democratic


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
In other Brexy Bonus news, Ford and Maclaren have warned of the dangers of a no deal Brexit.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-ford-car-warning-uk-politicians-take-action-protect-business-leave-eu-a8498131.html

So even company that for a while thought it looked positive for negotiations turned opinion? Sinking ship sinking fast.

So. Some baddies are on the side of sanity. Alright then, nobody will want it then I'm sure.
Has anyone heard that the DUP recently declared a house would soon be available to rent...several days before threats to the occupant came from loyalist paramilitaries?
About two weeks ago.
That's toxic.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
There a good opinion piece on The Independent.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/second-referendum-brexit-final-say-julian-dunkerton-peoples-vote-nigel-farage-a8498546.html

It makes the point that there is already a groundswell of pressure for a "people's vote" even though none of the main parties have yet got behind it.

In other Brexy Bonus news, Ford and Maclaren have warned of the dangers of a no deal Brexit.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-ford-car-warning-uk-politicians-take-action-protect-business-leave-eu-a8498131.html

Let facts and logic be our watch words. Let's take off our Leave and Remain hats, and put our neutral hat on and assess a second referendum.

Where would the Parliamentry time come from? Even if they cut and pasted the last referendum bill, it would still take a few months to get through the Commons. March 2019 is obviously crucial.

Any referendum campaign would need at least 6 weeks to run. Are you going to do that during the cold and snow of a British Winter/Spring?

How would the EU react? What if Remain lose again? And finally, why would the parties support it? If May backs it, the Moggs will topple her.

I cannot see how a second referendum is practical on any level, even if I did support it, which I don't.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Any people's vote is doomed to fail for as long as it has the support of a certain war criminal by the name of Anthony Blair, the man who destroyed Libya (Call me Dave) and a weasel by the name of N.Clegg who used to hang around Sheffield and scrounge good money from an unsuspecting public.

Then support the gskking referendum and shut all those remainers up!

Too bad that is too democratic


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
In other Brexy Bonus news, Ford and Maclaren have warned of the dangers of a no deal Brexit.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-ford-car-warning-uk-politicians-take-action-protect-business-leave-eu-a8498131.html

So even company that for a while thought it looked positive for negotiations turned opinion? Sinking ship sinking fast.

I'm beginning to regret collecting a Finnish army for Flames of War

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I wouldn't say I have had a Damascus conversion, but I'm adopting a new approach based on facts and logic, rather than emotionalism.

Not really. Facts and logic tell you than every Brexit option, down to EEA/EFTA is worse for the British public and the British economy.

The position you're now adopting is just damage control.

jouso wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I wouldn't say I have had a Damascus conversion, but I'm adopting a new approach based on facts and logic, rather than emotionalism.

Not really. Facts and logic tell you than every Brexit option, down to EEA/EFTA is worse for the British public and the British economy.

The position you're now adopting is just damage control.

My option for sure, sees us lose a few percentage points in GDP, but hardly Weimar Germany. It's manageable for the UK, whilst recognising it won't be easy.

But we get time to re-group, plan, learn to govern again, and get this nation fighting fit for the future. And hopefully, eject this feeble and useless Tory government.

Greece organized a referendum on their bail-out in 8 days.

We don't need a campaign. The public have been watching the issues evolve for two years. It's increasingly obvious that Brexit is bad news, that's why the mood of the people has started to change.

Who would the Leave campaign be anyway? Their last attempt got a record fine for breaking electoral law, several of their staff are under streat of criminal charges, and others are under threat of comtempt of parliament. Their lead donor has a lot of questions to answer about why he's been dissembling so much about his collusion with the Russian government.

I agree about getting rid of the Tories. Without this we are likely to get bounced into the hardest of Hard Brexits.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Greece organized a referendum on their bail-out in 8 days.

We don't need a campaign. The public have been watching the issues evolve for two years. It's increasingly obvious that Brexit is bad news, that's why the mood of the people has started to change.

Who would the Leave campaign be anyway? Their last attempt got a record fine for breaking electoral law, several of their staff are under streat of criminal charges, and others are under threat of comtempt of parliament. Their lead donor has a lot of questions to answer about why he's been dissembling so much about his collusion with the Russian government.

I agree about getting rid of the Tories. Without this we are likely to get bounced into the hardest of Hard Brexits.

Cameron was panicked into a referendum by Farage and UKIP.

Farage's return will send shockwaves through Tory top brass, and May will hold fast, because the Tories will put party before politics and not risk losing voters to UKIP.

The referendum is a non-starter, and hard Brexit looms on the horizon as a result.

As I've said repeatedly, hard Brexit is bad news for me, but ironically good news for Remain, because if there's disaster, Remain seize the wheel, and the EU will move so fast to offer a deal, we can expect to see Juncker on sick leave with whiplash.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/20/mps-ask-for-expenses-budgets-to-be-raised-to-cover-brexit-costs?CMP=fb_gu

MPs ask for expenses budgets to be raised to cover Brexit costs

MPs are asking for their expenses budgets to be increased to help them manage an increased workload resulting from Brexit, the parliamentary watchdog has revealed.

A poll last year of MPs and their staff by the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority (Ipsa) said there had been demands from politicians and staff to give them more money to cover their higher costs.

“There were further requests to further increase MP staffing budgets due to their increasing workloads, some of which is the result of Brexit,” the report published last month said.

Responding to the revelation, Sir Kevin Barron, chairman of the committee on standards, told the Telegraph: “It is essential that Ipsa achieves value for money as we are all funded by taxpayers’ money.

“Requests for contingency funding should be judged individually on their merits but only awarded where the need is clear.”

Some 93 people responded to the 2017 survey – a sharp decrease from 366 respondents in the previous year. It is not known who or how many parliamentary staff made the request.

MPs are currently given a £150,900 annual staffing budget – increased to £161,550 in London.

The report also found that almost a quarter (24.1%) of respondents said they chose not to disclose an expense because of concerns it would be published.

Ipsa was set up in the wake of the MPs expenses scandal almost 10 years ago in an effort to increase transparency concerning pay and business costs.

The revelations of how much politicians were claiming sent shockwaves through Westminster and beyond, with details emerging of frivolous and excessive spending including a miniature island to house ducks in former Tory MP Peter Viggers’ duck pond.

MPs have seen a gradual increase in pay from £65,738 in 2010 to £77,379 this year.

Ipsa announced last year that it would no longer provide funding for new “connected parties” - spouses and family members employed by MPs - after last year’s general election.

The committee on standards in public life welcomed the changes, saying: “Although many provide an excellent service, it was considered that employment of family members was out of step with modern employment practice and not consistent with proper use of public funds.”

Sir Alistair Graham, former chairman of the committee, told the Telegraph: “Ipsa should be very cautious about raising budgets.

“It would be quite wrong to automatically agree an increase in the staff budget if there’s a danger some of it goes to improve the family income rather than as a service to the public ... All MPs’ positions should be subject to open competition.”

just keeps on giving doesn't it eh ?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


The referendum is a non-starter, and hard Brexit looms on the horizon as a result.

As I've said repeatedly, hard Brexit is bad news for me, but ironically good news for Remain, because if there's disaster, Remain seize the wheel, and the EU will move so fast to offer a deal, we can expect to see Juncker on sick leave with whiplash.

Brexit is bad news for everyone, hard brexit so much worse. If we do leave and rejoin, killing off the right-wing notion for another couple of generations, we'll have done irreparable damage.
So to say a hard brexit is good news for Remain is to fundamentally misunderstand Brexit. All of those jobs lost will not be coming back, our international reputation won't heal for generations, and so on.

Remain won't offer a deal; they'll be on a flight straight over to Brussels to ask about joining with any exemptions they feel like giving us. We'll then sit and stew whilst the EU votes on whether or not we're allowed in again.

A hard brexit will loom whether we have a 2nd referendum or not; as said the amount of time taken to do so is inconsequential compared to the amount of time we've wasted on showboating. As I understand it, we need to have largely reached agreement with the EU around October in order to get all of the agreements ratified by March. That's not going to happen until May decides which red lines she wants to violate.

The rational way to approach this is to rescind our declaration of Article 50. All that takes is an emergency motion in Parliament, followed by a letter to the EU. It would take a day.

This will give us the time to think about and decide what we want to do. It might involve a referendum, or a general election, an election followed by a referendum, followed by another declaration of Article 50, and anything else.

What we can't allow is the current situation in which a cabal of the DUP and Hard Brexiteers in the Conservatives are bouncing the whole nation against the wishes of the majority into a chaotic Hard Brexit.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The rational way to approach this is to rescind our declaration of Article 50. All that takes is an emergency motion in Parliament, followed by a letter to the EU. It would take a day.

This will give us the time to think about and decide what we want to do. It might involve a referendum, or a general election, an election followed by a referendum, followed by another declaration of Article 50, and anything else.

What we can't allow is the current situation in which a cabal of the DUP and Hard Brexiteers in the Conservatives are bouncing the whole nation against the wishes of the majority into a chaotic Hard Brexit.

Precisely this.

It's perfectly rational if you want to see the emergence of a far-right party that makes Nigel Farage look like Nick Clegg.

And they will have a ready made audience who will lap up their theme of betrayal, and stabbed in the back, if God forbid we see Brexit being aborted.

I will bang this drum for evermore: you cannot have the BIGGEST vote in British political history, tell people it's off, and not expect a backlash. It's fantasy politics.

You cannot tell people night and day, for 2 years, that their referendum victory was non-binding, then expect them to fall into line behind your people's referendum, and not expect a backlash. It's cloud cuckoo land stuff.

I say this with all sincerity to Remain voters. You never got us, and you never will. Brexit wasn't about economics for a lot of folk. You lot have too much head and not enough heart. That's why you lost, and that's why a monster would be unleashed if you persist down this path.

People say, you created this, you own it, and I am owning it as best I can. I've written to my MP and MSP, I've penned letters for to local newspapers, all in the cause of the compromise deal. And I hope you guys will do the same.

Alas, we've been hamstrung by Ultra Remainers who act as though a referendum never happened, and Ultra Brexiteers who will ironically kill off Brexit with their WTO no surrender to the EU, bollocks.

The debate has been horribly polarised, but not on Dakka thank God, which is one of the few places still civil for the vast majority of the time.

My thanks to fellow Dakka member for keeping it civil nearly all the time, and yeah, I've fallen off the wagon once or twice myself.

In the grand scheme of things there's little we can realistically do, I respect the fact that people care about the EU, and I understand why people on the Remain side would be reluctant to forgive or forget the last 2 years, but we are where we are.

But let's hope to God that some sensible compromise, that satisfies the moderates on both sides, sees the light of day, and that Ultras on both sides are frustrated.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
It's perfectly rational if you want to see the emergence of a far-right party that makes Nigel Farage look like Nick Clegg.

And they will have a ready made audience who will lap up their theme of betrayal, and stabbed in the back, if God forbid we see Brexit being aborted.

I will bang this drum for evermore: you cannot have the BIGGEST vote in British political history, tell people it's off, and not expect a backlash. It's fantasy politics.

We've already seen that when 17 million people were willing to vote for lies and/or racism and then expect those lies to actually be possible to achieve. The only fantasy politics here is from your side of the debate. The side which said that we held all the cards. The side that said this would be the easiest trade deal ever negotiated. The side which thought it could actually deliver those lies people were promised.

You cannot tell people night and day, for 2 years, that their referendum victory was non-binding, then expect them to fall into line behind your people's referendum, and not expect a backlash. It's cloud cuckoo land stuff.

But you can apparently tell them, for 2 years, that the UK will be stronger out, make trade deals with everywhere in no time, no longer have free movement, have access to EU projects without having to pay etc.

Tell us again about cloud cuckoo land.

I say this with all sincerity to Remain voters. You never got us, and you never will. Brexit wasn't about economics for a lot of folk. You lot have too much head and not enough heart. That's why you lost, and that's why a monster would be unleashed if you persist down this path.

A monster has already been unleashed. The monster of ignorance and demagoguery. Where the feelings of the mob are more important than the empirical truth in front of our own eyes.

People say, you created this, you own it, and I am owning it as best I can.

Bollocks. You've avoided responsibility at every turn. You still cling to the idea that EEA can actually work, ignoring the facts that it fails to fix the issues with customs and the Irish border.

I've written to my MP and MSP, I've penned letters for to local newspapers, all in the cause of the compromise deal. And I hope you guys will do the same.

Your compromise is no compromise. It does not solve the Irish border issue. It does not solve our customs checks issues. Your compromise is still blowing our head off, just with a smaller calibre bullet.

Alas, we've been hamstrung by Ultra Remainers who act as though a referendum never happened, and Ultra Brexiteers who will ironically kill off Brexit with their WTO no surrender to the EU, bollocks.

No, we've been hamstrung by brexiteers who either fell for lies or just plain didn't care about the impacts of the vote and somehow thought that their voice should be respected above those who actually know what they're talking about.

The debate has been horribly polarised, but not on Dakka thank God, which is one of the few places still civil for the vast majority of the time.

My thanks to fellow Dakka member for keeping it civil nearly all the time, and yeah, I've fallen off the wagon once or twice myself.

In the grand scheme of things there's little we can realistically do, I respect the fact that people care about the EU, and I understand why people on the Remain side would be reluctant to forgive or forget the last 2 years, but we are where we are.

But let's hope to God that some sensible compromise, that satisfies the moderates on both sides, sees the light of day, and that Ultras on both sides are frustrated.

There is no time left for any "sensible compromise" to be negotiated. If you are actually serious about not wanting the UK to crash out in a hard brexit then rescinding article 50 is the only guarantee of avoiding that.

@ DINLT

I have to contest your point that this place, this thread, is civil. It’s not. How much abuse have you had to endure personally? As I recall, quite a lot.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
It's perfectly rational if you want to see the emergence of a far-right party that makes Nigel Farage look like Nick Clegg.

And they will have a ready made audience who will lap up their theme of betrayal, and stabbed in the back, if God forbid we see Brexit being aborted.

I will bang this drum for evermore: you cannot have the BIGGEST vote in British political history, tell people it's off, and not expect a backlash. It's fantasy politics.

We've actually had a party like this. It was BNP (British Nationalist Party) and the party died even before the referendum. The Tories might get a backlash because a significant fraction of the party membership (and voters based on the last election) would move back to UKIP (or wherever Farage hangs his hat). However we've seen previously that it only makes up about 15% of the population.

You cannot tell people night and day, for 2 years, that their referendum victory was non-binding, then expect them to fall into line behind your people's referendum, and not expect a backlash. It's cloud cuckoo land stuff.

I say this with all sincerity to Remain voters. You never got us, and you never will. Brexit wasn't about economics for a lot of folk. You lot have too much head and not enough heart. That's why you lost, and that's why a monster would be unleashed if you persist down this path.

There's two arguments here. Cameron, in his idiocy, decided to make EU membership a direct democracy issue which it should never have been. In reality then we should continue to have that choice because that is what democracy is. That implies a second referendum - even if it goes the other way then again we should continue to have referendums on the issue. This should continue until we get to a point where the statistical choice is so consistently one way or another that it is pointless to continue (so 70:30 in favour one way or another for three or so referendums). You are correct in the assertion that if we get another close result (possible, even likely) that should the remain camp then go quiet about another referendum then it would look hypocritical. We should also not exclude people that should be included. That includes British citizens abroad and permanent EU residents who all are impacted by such a decision. Too many people were excluded from the vote 'just because'. There is also an argument that 16 years old should also be allowed to vote.

Secondly people voted for Wrexit for a number of reasons, that very broadly you can put into the following camps (with more or less weighting for each person). These in my view were, anti-immigration, nationalism (take back control etc), and anti-establishment (from those screwed by the Tory government for years whilst the wealthy feast on their carcasses). Now the former group are unlikely to change their mind; some in the second group have changed their mind; and a lot in the latter group have changed their mind as they realised that they were shooting themselves in the foot. This is why I believe there has been a large swing in labour strong holds back to support. The simplistic messages have lost ground and now are realising that sticking something into the spokes of your bicycle is not a good idea.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/11/more-than-100-pro-leave-constituencies-switch-to-remain



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
@ DINLT

I have to contest your point that this place, this thread, is civil. It’s not. How much abuse have you had to endure personally? As I recall, quite a lot.

This surely is a decision that DINLT can make and state himself?

 Future War Cultist wrote:
@ DINLT

I have to contest your point that this place, this thread, is civil. It’s not. How much abuse have you had to endure personally? As I recall, quite a lot.

As said, I’m sure DINLT can make call himself for what he has personally felt. For me, I think it has been civil. It has been heated and people have got angry, but there has been non of the name calling, personal abuse and threats that have existed elsewhere. Even though people have strongly disagreed we have not had that kind of behaviour. We have not had the kind of stuff you see in the US politics thread, which is take compared to most places politics is discussed. Overall it has been very civil, even if people think others views are totally wrong in general people have tried to counter them with facts and evidence, not by shouting them down or bullying the people involved. People may have been robust and forthright in their language, but mostly civil.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
It's perfectly rational if you want to see the emergence of a far-right party that makes Nigel Farage look like Nick Clegg.

And they will have a ready made audience who will lap up their theme of betrayal, and stabbed in the back, if God forbid we see Brexit being aborted.

I will bang this drum for evermore: you cannot have the BIGGEST vote in British political history, tell people it's off, and not expect a backlash. It's fantasy politics.

How many brexit voters do you reckon will feel betrayed at getting the wrong brexit?

I agree people will feel betrayed if May turns round and cancels brexit unless she makes a good job of explaining it. Rescinding A50 is only betrayal if the right wing lies about it we can always enact it again later if we can come up with any plan which might work.

@ Remain supporters: and who's going to overturn Article 50? Pro-EU MPs who've waved through every act of Parliament withdrawing us from the EU? They haven't lifted a finger to defend the EU in two years. Why do you expect them to find a spine now?

Are you banking on T.May? She'd be signing her own death warrant, and let's not forget that the Tory conference is in October, and that 75% of the Tory grassroots want Brexit.

The idea that May will roll up to the conference and propose that is utter nonsense. She'd be ran out of town.

Vince Cable? Hasn't got enough MPs to fill a phonebox. Corbyn? Anti-Semitism issue will rumble on until the New Year.

Who's going to be the Remain White knight? Bomber Blair? Clegg? or Dave, if you can find him.


@Whirlwind. The BNP got 1 million votes at one time. don't think for a minute that's gone away.

@Town Called Malus and Whirlwind. You questions the motives of the 17 million leave voters, but let's not forget 16 million Remain supporters.

Not for a minute do I think that they all had a portrait of Juncker above the fireplace or that they were ready to march the EU onto the Ural Mountains.

Their motivations are a mystery as well. I don't make sweeping statements about Remain. I think it's foolish to tar every Leave supporter with the same brush as a minority of rascists.

I think that's the problem. No one in charge has the spine or political neck room to do what everyone knows is the right thing. And this mess is all because the Tory party keep reverting to form.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
@ DINLT

I have to contest your point that this place, this thread, is civil. It’s not. How much abuse have you had to endure personally? As I recall, quite a lot.

If you knew the woman I used to be married too, then you'd know I can handle verbal abuse.

I appreciate the support. Thanks.

In all honesty, it's been pretty good most of the time on this discussion, and although there might have been one or two instances of below the belt hits, it's been pretty civil.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:
I think that's the problem. No one in charge has the spine or political neck room to do what everyone knows is the right thing. And this mess is all because the Tory party keep reverting to form.

I forgot to post this the other day, but it follows on from what I said about our politics and what I've learned from reading books by Westminster insiders for a minute.

Forget Brexit, British politics has been in trouble since the 1990s.

We have this combination of media barons dictating policy, think tanks and lobbyists working behind the scenes, and MPs from safe seats selected on the basis of who they know. It's a toxic combination and David Cameron's rise to power was the culmination of all that.

Here's an example: it's a running joke in Brussels that if you want to keep something hidden from the British, post it on the EU website.

We never read it...

Even 10 years ago, before Brexit, Remain supporting MPs were clueless about how the EU actually worked.

I think that very well sums up most of our problems with the EU. Rampant ignorance.

Fortunately the scales of ignorance have begun to fall from the eyes of the populace.

And please don't dogpile onto DINLT. He is pretty much the last Brexiteer in the forum we have to try and convince to come to the Dark Side.

Next, on Survivor UK find out who gets voted off the island!

Given the amount of deliberate misinformation from the Brexit side of things, a new ballot is definitely called for.

Sometimes people's opinions change - and sometimes they change for very good reason.

The Auld Grump