Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 jhe90 wrote:

True. But it seems very every good way to resign without having to admit you failed, a thing no political figure in universe want s to do.
Cause I don,t want her to die. It just seems a way that Corbyn might use, its tackling a problem but more gently.

But suppose she really is sick, whether physical or mentally, is it appropriate to accuse someone of making an excuse without knowing? Her recent poor record may be because she is sick; rather than she has been poor therefore lets make her out to be unwell?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Future War Cultist wrote:


@ Whirlwind

I know I know, aftermath of WW2 and all that. But the HRA makes it too easy for the scum of the earth to launch petty and frivolous lawsuits. The way it was before, with the costs and delays, to me ensured that only the real cases went forward. This is my opinion but I think some only bring cases before it out of boredom and vindictiveness. If your a sociopathic killer sitting bored out of your head in prision then why not claim your rights have been violated somehow just for something to do? With the added bonus that any money you win is more salt in the wound for the victims and the prison staff.

If that was the case we would be overwhelmed with such cases all the time (such as whether all prisoners should be allowed pet hamsters). There have only been a handful, but high profile cases, there's more to the judicial system than just making something up and running with it, the legal system is much more complex than this. Only arguments that do need to be heard and have a potential case get to the ECHR. High profile cases like this are taken because the legislation is unclear and the judicial system needs to make a determination (such as should a citizen being deported for legal reasons from the EU be assured that the rights they have here in not being tortured and having a fair trial still apply in the country that the EU country wants to deport them to?).

 Whirlwind wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:


Or cost usmillions in endless cases to deport criminals, or at other end some of the truely silly cases brought... Human rights on being denied luxuries in jail etc.

You are focusing solely on the high profile cases that do cost. But those costs are miniscule when compared to what rights it gives us all everyday. You may not see those rights, they are not see them plastered on every wall but they are there. It provides us all protection. It stops governments exploiting the populace, means they can go on strike or join a rally in London without fear of a curfew being issued. It means that the police can't just invade you house just to have a look what you are doing and can't use physical or mental attacks to et information from you. It means that you can have the rights of privacy in the world and that they don't monitor you everyday all the time whether that is mowing the lawn, reading a book, sleeping with your partner and so on; it means your employer has to treat you with certain respect, treat all it's staff equally and not discriminate against. Don't be so quick to denigrate the human rights the ECHR gives you, because you may look forlornly back when they are gone and the government is being ever more intrusive in all our lives.

If you want to live in a world where human rights are at the expense of the safety of the country I'd suggest you move to Egypt and experience what happens when 'populace safety' is put before human rights.

I do believe the act is important, however the act has also been heavily open to being exploited at times too.
It matters but it also should not be being used to get access to porn in jail!
A matter of wrongful conviction is different. It is a serious legal act not one for claims of wanting colour tv or ice cream.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Whirlwind wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

True. But it seems very every good way to resign without having to admit you failed, a thing no political figure in universe want s to do.
Cause I don,t want her to die. It just seems a way that Corbyn might use, its tackling a problem but more gently.

But suppose she really is sick, whether physical or mentally, is it appropriate to accuse someone of making an excuse without knowing? Her recent poor record may be because she is sick; rather than she has been poor therefore lets make her out to be unwell?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Future War Cultist wrote:


@ Whirlwind

I know I know, aftermath of WW2 and all that. But the HRA makes it too easy for the scum of the earth to launch petty and frivolous lawsuits. The way it was before, with the costs and delays, to me ensured that only the real cases went forward. This is my opinion but I think some only bring cases before it out of boredom and vindictiveness. If your a sociopathic killer sitting bored out of your head in prision then why not claim your rights have been violated somehow just for something to do? With the added bonus that any money you win is more salt in the wound for the victims and the prison staff.

If that was the case we would be overwhelmed with such cases all the time (such as whether all prisoners should be allowed pet hamsters). There have only been a handful, but high profile cases, there's more to the judicial system than just making something up and running with it, the legal system is much more complex than this. Only arguments that do need to be heard and have a potential case get to the ECHR. High profile cases like this are taken because the legislation is unclear and the judicial system needs to make a determination (such as should a citizen being deported for legal reasons from the EU be assured that the rights they have here in not being tortured and having a fair trial still apply in the country that the EU country wants to deport them to?).

Because our parliament is so full of liars, deceiver's and tricksters its hard to sometimes take anything at face value!

So, as we enter the final stretch, how are people feeling? Still intending to vote? Has the campaign changed the way you intend to vote, or cemented your beliefs?
I think its been one of the most interesting campaigns in a long time, primarily because,for the first time we actually seem to have some choices. Each party is now quite different, and what will happen tomorrow is, I think going to either cement our travel down one path, or take us meandering through slightly unfamiliar territory.
That in itself is quite interesting, and I'm not taking things for granted. Up until Abbott went, I was pretty certain of a Tory victory, just a case of by how much, but now, her departure may swing a few votes back towards Labour.

I will be voting Labour, I've even joined the party, which is something I've never done before. But whether I remain in the party depends on how the post election party carries on. If they stick to the manifesto, I'm in. If they start going all New Labour again, I'm out.
If they lose, but keep their revitalised agenda going then I'll stick around, but if we get another Blair, I'm out again.

Anybody else willing to plant their flag, or are there still some waverers out there?

Conservative.

But we have a decent MP, yes party not ideal but he got quite abit done locally including road changes that probably have saved lives.

The labour candidate only seems to mention national commitments, and has not seen to include only one local aspect to his campaign stuff we got sent.

Greens campaign on local issues but they got hope.
Lib Dems where former holders round here but they are also only seem to be refrencing national.

Will be voting SDLP tomorrow, don't normally vote for them as a first choice, however, there is a risk of the DUP taking the seat from the current SDLP holder which would be a travesty so I'll be doing my bit to stop it

In England would love it if Labour could win but will accept the Tories getting a bit of a bloody nose, I don't know what it is but to me even for a Tory May comes across as un-trustworthy.

 r_squared wrote:
So, as we enter the final stretch, how are people feeling? Still intending to vote? Has the campaign changed the way you intend to vote, or cemented your beliefs?
I think its been one of the most interesting campaigns in a long time, primarily because,for the first time we actually seem to have some choices. Each party is now quite different, and what will happen tomorrow is, I think going to either cement our travel down one path, or take us meandering through slightly unfamiliar territory.
That in itself is quite interesting, and I'm not taking things for granted. Up until Abbott went, I was pretty certain of a Tory victory, just a case of by how much, but now, her departure may swing a few votes back towards Labour.

I will be voting Labour, I've even joined the party, which is something I've never done before. But whether I remain in the party depends on how the post election party carries on. If they stick to the manifesto, I'm in. If they start going all New Labour again, I'm out.
If they lose, but keep their revitalised agenda going then I'll stick around, but if we get another Blair, I'm out again.

Anybody else willing to plant their flag, or are there still some waverers out there?

I'm just glad it's over. Like most people, I made up my mind years ago on who to vote.

I'll be voting SNP as always, but I'm glad that in England and Wales they do have a genuine choice this time, instead of Red Blairites of Blue Blairites.
As always, I hope Clegg gets a boot up the rear tomorrow.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jhe90 wrote:
Conservative.

But we have a decent MP, yes party not ideal but he got quite abit done locally including road changes that probably have saved lives.

The labour candidate only seems to mention national commitments, and has not seen to include only one local aspect to his campaign stuff we got sent.

Greens campaign on local issues but they got hope.
Lib Dems where former holders round here but they are also only seem to be refrencing national.

As people know, I'm not a Tory fan, but I'm glad people go out and vote for somebody.

A Tory supporter who votes gets more respect from me than somebody who doesn't vote at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Whirlwind wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

nfe wrote:
Abbot is gone.

Claims of ill health. Which is a cover story if I ever saw one.
More likely she realised her position was entirely impossible to maintain and hurting her party.

She was a embarrassment to the campaign on several interviews.
I doubt she had many allies left in Party HQ/the cabinet by the end.

Don't be so quick to judge the circumstances. The alternative view is that an illness is reducing her ability on the campaign trail (but wanted to see Labour do well so tried to stick it out).

What happens if next week she resigns because she is diagnosed with a brain tumour and only has weeks left (lets hope not but it does happen). How would you feel if that your employer/friends family stated the same thing when you were ill?

We should avoid making judgements on information we do not have. Unless you have information that she really is lying then you should accept such statements as fact rather than fiction.

Normally, I'd give people the benefit of the doubt, but this has happened before at crucial moments.

If Abbott is genuinely ill, then I wish her all the best, but I'm unconvinced. I think the heat is on, and she has decided to get out of the kitchen.

Based on where the polls have gotten us recently (i.e. within the margin of error but not following the popularly presumed script) I'm going to guess we'll see .... Tory gaining a handful of seats and not much else happening

 Henry wrote:
Based on where the polls have gotten us recently (i.e. within the margin of error but not following the popularly presumed script) I'm going to guess we'll see .... Tory gaining a handful of seats and not much else happening

As always, and for the record, I'll put my neck on the line and make a prediction. I predicted a Trump victory, so I'm not that bad at this

1. Conservatives to win a small majority. Corbyn has had a great campaign, but I think the damage was done months ago. Middle England are fully aware that May is not up to the job, but they'll never vote for Corbyn/Abbott/McDonell. Noses will be held, and votes will be cast for the Tories.

2. 50 seats for the SNP

3. I like Sheffield, great city, and I hope the people there give Nick Clegg the boot up the rear he deserves.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Normally, I'd give people the benefit of the doubt, but this has happened before at crucial moments.

If Abbott is genuinely ill, then I wish her all the best, but I'm unconvinced. I think the heat is on, and she has decided to get out of the kitchen.

I think you should be more generous with any one that is ill, because you may appreciate that generosity one day!

Anyway she has been diagnosed with a serious long term illness and is pulling back for the foreseeable future.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/diane-abbott-replaced-as-shadow-home-secretary-for-period-of-her-ill-health_uk_5937b3d8e4b0ce1e7408f4c0?utm_hp_ref=uk

and realistically if the Tories thought it was an act they would be making right commotion over it. However May has also wished her well

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/theresa-may-diane-abbott-campaign_uk_5937e22de4b01fc18d3f13b8?ir=UK+Politics&utm_hp_ref=uk-politics

I think we can conclude then that recent poor speeches and the like was due to illness that hadn't yet been recognised.

I'll vote Scottish Greens. I really like Patrick Harvie, see him often around the area, and he's a nice guy in it for all the right reasons. Patrick Grady will almost certainly win the seat for the SNP, but if they have a chance of winning a seat anywhere it's here.

I'm a hardline 'you have to vote for what you want' guy and tend to deride tactical voting or the idea that any vote is a wasted vote, but I do have to say if I was in a seat in danger of being taken by the Tories or Scottish Labour I'd be very tempted to vote SNP, whilst feeling icky about it,

 Henry wrote:
Based on where the polls have gotten us recently (i.e. within the margin of error but not following the popularly presumed script) I'm going to guess we'll see .... Tory gaining a handful of seats and not much else happening

You'd think, but considering what they thought they would do, if they come out of this with anything less than a stonking majority and a defeated and humbled left, the knives will be out for May. I almost feel sorry for her.
I've mentioned it before, if the Tories win, then they have to deal with Brexit. I don't fancy the chances of May surviving long either way. They'll try and blame the opposition, but everyone will be able to see exactly what they have wrought.

Can you still enjoy shadenfreude if you're getting done over as well I wonder?

Well, working in London, I've had one ear pointed in the direction of Westminster.

There's definitely the sound of whetstones being used, and I think I heard the occasional 'gosh', 'crikey' and at least one 'wiff-waff'

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Normally, I'd give people the benefit of the doubt, but this has happened before at crucial moments.

If Abbott is genuinely ill, then I wish her all the best, but I'm unconvinced. I think the heat is on, and she has decided to get out of the kitchen.

I think you should be more generous with any one that is ill, because you may appreciate that generosity one day!

Anyway she has been diagnosed with a serious long term illness and is pulling back for the foreseeable future.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/diane-abbott-replaced-as-shadow-home-secretary-for-period-of-her-ill-health_uk_5937b3d8e4b0ce1e7408f4c0?utm_hp_ref=uk

and realistically if the Tories thought it was an act they would be making right commotion over it. However May has also wished her well

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/theresa-may-diane-abbott-campaign_uk_5937e22de4b01fc18d3f13b8?ir=UK+Politics&utm_hp_ref=uk-politics

I think we can conclude then that recent poor speeches and the like was due to illness that hadn't yet been recognised.

I didn't know that. I retract my earlier comments.

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Normally, I'd give people the benefit of the doubt, but this has happened before at crucial moments.

If Abbott is genuinely ill, then I wish her all the best, but I'm unconvinced. I think the heat is on, and she has decided to get out of the kitchen.

I think you should be more generous with any one that is ill, because you may appreciate that generosity one day!

Anyway she has been diagnosed with a serious long term illness and is pulling back for the foreseeable future.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/diane-abbott-replaced-as-shadow-home-secretary-for-period-of-her-ill-health_uk_5937b3d8e4b0ce1e7408f4c0?utm_hp_ref=uk

and realistically if the Tories thought it was an act they would be making right commotion over it. However May has also wished her well

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/theresa-may-diane-abbott-campaign_uk_5937e22de4b01fc18d3f13b8?ir=UK+Politics&utm_hp_ref=uk-politics

I think we can conclude then that recent poor speeches and the like was due to illness that hadn't yet been recognised.

Yeah seems like they put some proof out there.

Il take it back then. However given the nature of political parties, mps and west minster in general... Out cynicism at first claims are not entirely without reason. Our trust in them is somewhat lacking.

 Henry wrote:
Based on where the polls have gotten us recently (i.e. within the margin of error but not following the popularly presumed script) I'm going to guess we'll see .... Tory gaining a handful of seats and not much else happening

Which I think will mean May's tenure will probably cut short. There will be a lot of accusations that in effect she wasted a lot of time for political aims and has stopped 2 months worth of preparation work over Brexit. Her 'honey moon' period is also well and truly over. She has shown that rather than be a shrewd diplomat she somehow manages to stumble from one fiasco to the next with an inability to argue a case and has to resort to the same tired old soundbites which lack any substance. She's also shown she is willing to bend over backwards to try and accommodate a significant proportion of the exUKIP crowd that see immigration and the EU as the root of all our problems. On the other hand Corbyn has shown he is willing to compromise and despite all the muck thrown at him has shown he can at least stomach them (whereas May does the best impression of a terrified mangy rabbit in headlights). As such I think the EU will laughing if they see May turn up at the table.

The one thing we can say though is just how much a divide there is between the generations, with the older generation being generally much more conservative in their views of the world. As such the only thing that I can really predict from this election is the country is going to be more divided than ever before and that the issues with Brexit will continue to split and divide the country (likely leading eventually to one side blaming the other when the green grass on the other side turns out to be a blasted wasteland and the other side just repeats the "we told you so".

As for who to vote for. It goes into the definitely not Tory category. According to the tactical voting site Labour has the best chance of unseating Conservatives in the area. The area is so blue May could turn the whole County into a nuclear test site and they'd still vote for her. As such I'd like to get the area to the point where there is actually a political debate and that candidates actually bother to do something. So I'll probably vote Labour. However my political views are more aligned to LD and Greens and would like to see them both have more influence than the far left and far right options we have a choice out of, but the Green vote especially seems a bit of a waste given the FPTP system. So basically I'm voting "Anything but May and Cronies".

On the other hand if she does get in I might not need to worry about the next election as I'll be doing my best to get out of the country (or going to Scotland and voting for independence).

 r_squared wrote:

 Henry wrote:
Based on where the polls have gotten us recently (i.e. within the margin of error but not following the popularly presumed script) I'm going to guess we'll see .... Tory gaining a handful of seats and not much else happening

You'd think, but considering what they thought they would do, if they come out of this with anything less than a stonking majority and a defeated and humbled left, the knives will be out for May. I almost feel sorry for her.
I've mentioned it before, if the Tories win, then they have to deal with Brexit. I don't fancy the chances of May surviving long either way. They'll try and blame the opposition, but everyone will be able to see exactly what they have wrought.

Can you still enjoy shadenfreude if you're getting done over as well I wonder?

I'll be surprised if May is still PM by Christmas, for 3 reasons (in order of likeliness):

1. She's shamed the party by making such a gak of the GE.
2. She'll lose her seat. She needs to be an MP to be PM, right?
3. She is charged with lying about a political opponent.

Herzlos wrote:


I'll be surprised if May is still PM by Christmas, for 3 reasons (in order of likeliness):

1. She's shamed the party by making such a gak of the GE.
2. She'll lose her seat. She needs to be an MP to be PM, right?
3. She is charged with lying about a political opponent.

1. Possible.
2. No chance.
3. That's the norm.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I'm sure it's not that much money in the grand scheme of things but even one penny is too much for me to stomach in those cases. Of course it's the lawyers who really do well out of it. I'm sure Tony Blair wasn't thinking about Cherie's career at all when he created the human rights act.

In a country based on the rule of law, there will always be a role for lawyers.

The Human Rights Act brings UK law into compliance with the European Convention on Human Rights, which is in compliance with the United Nations Convention on Human Rights. (Which the UK helped to write back in 1948 in the 1940s.)

nfe wrote:

Herzlos wrote:


I'll be surprised if May is still PM by Christmas, for 3 reasons (in order of likeliness):

1. She's shamed the party by making such a gak of the GE.
2. She'll lose her seat. She needs to be an MP to be PM, right?
3. She is charged with lying about a political opponent.

1. Possible.
2. No chance.
3. That's the norm.

1. Possible. If she fails bad enough or there's a rebellion inside party
2. I checked. She has a 29,000 majority with 54% of vote. Not likely. At all.
3. Yes, that's just day to day stuff for Westminster.

Voted Labour, however our seat is held by Cons with a majority of around 20K so no chance there, and she's a bit of a get as well.. so.. aye, sad times, but at least it'll be another vote for Labour overall for when they start comparing Corbyn's performance to Ed's the morning after.

I'm in the Bristol West constituency and will be voting Labour tomorrow.

I don't know who to vote for. Maybe Alliance?

Herzlos wrote:


1. She's shamed the party by making such a gak of the GE.
2. She'll lose her seat. She needs to be an MP to be PM, right?
3. She is charged with lying about a political opponent.

1. Is possible. I think there are plenty of opponents in the stands just waiting for their chance. If she does win I wonder whether it will be Xmas or whether the shrewd person will wait until she has made such a mess of Brexit that it becomes a lot easier to remove her. If of course it goes to a hung parliament I expect she'll quit quite soon though as she wanted to get a 'mandate' for her Brexit negotiations and will have got a very big thumbs down.

2. Is highly unlikely, she could nuke Scotland and still get voted in.

3. Unfortunately there is no come back on deliberately misleading the electorate on any of the politicians. She could throw the manifesto in the bin next week and by the time the next election comes round the group of people that will vote Tories no matter what will have happily forgotten she did it or conveniently ignore it. The only real hope is if someone takes issue personally and sues her (or the Tory party).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I don't know who to vote for. Maybe Alliance?

I guess you are in NI? The alliance always sounded sane and less entrenched and more willing to compromise which is always a good thing.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
I'm in the Bristol West constituency and will be voting Labour tomorrow.

But will you risk breaking the law for your free banksy print?

@ Whirlwind

Yeah they try to rise above the sectarianism, which is commendable. They're very pro eu but I can overlook that.

I see that George Osborne is working his magic again. What a nasty pile of [insert expletive]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/diane-abbott-illness-cartoon-george-osborne_uk_5937f3c2e4b0ce1e740959d2?utm_hp_ref=uk&utm_hp_ref=uk

Still it is one Tory we no longer have to deal with. Just a pity he is now editor of the London Tory Standard

 Whirlwind wrote:
I see that George Osborne is working his magic again. What a nasty pile of [insert expletive]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/diane-abbott-illness-cartoon-george-osborne_uk_5937f3c2e4b0ce1e740959d2?utm_hp_ref=uk&utm_hp_ref=uk

Still it is one Tory we no longer have to deal with. Just a pity he is now editor of the London Tory Standard

I saw that earlier on twitter and after seeing her condition confirmed went to see if I could find it and it had been deleted. Didn't realise her condition had actually been confirmed prior to him tweeting it.

Still, no surprise from compassionate conservatives, eh?

I do like election time.

David Dimbleby, John Curtice, a half-drunk Nigel Farage getting wheeled out, and of course, Paddy Ashdown always convinced that this will be the Lib Dems' year

Love it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
I'm in the Bristol West constituency and will be voting Labour tomorrow.

I'm that far north, we should really be the Arctic South constituency

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I do like election time.

David Dimbleby, John Curtice, a half-drunk Nigel Farage getting wheeled out, and of course, Paddy Ashdown always convinced that this will be the Lib Dems' year

Love it.

Hopefully Nigel Farage will get wheeled out the building in a dust bin and dumped into the furthest landfill! As for Mr Ashdown somehow I don't think he'll be offering to eat his hat this time.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
I'm in the Bristol West constituency and will be voting Labour tomorrow.

But will you risk breaking the law for your free banksy print?

Haha it would be tempting but he's had to rescind that offer