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 Darkjim wrote:
...You could possibly add the fact that Rupert Murdoch is reportedly very, very angry to that list. It's definitely one of my reasons to be cheerful currently.

If only I could see that for myself, my shadenfreude scale would explode in a fountain of glitter.

Calling the DUP homophobic, misogynistic, racist bigots isn't being a bit naughty. It's stating outright facts.

That the gutter press in the UK like The Sun, The Express and The Daily Mail tried to use Corbyns (idiotic, ill-advised) meetings with the IRA against him and for the Tories to instantly turn to the DUP, with their own dodgy links to loyalist paramilitaries, is absurd. But I understand that they don't really have any choice.

nfe wrote:

 Kroem wrote:

The climate change-denying, ex-terrorist, women-hating, homophobic bigots are going to be a moderatong influence?

Come on now. yes the DUP hold some social views we disagree with , but being dismissive and contemptuous about a party that increased its vote share amongst Northern Irish voters is equally bad in my book.

Nah, I'll stay plenty contemptuous of people who literally march past my door singing songs about wading in my blood. Gets your goat a bit, that. Not to mention their views on women and homosexuals, their denial of science, or their deals with Saudi arms smugglers.

The influence that the DUP puts them in a strong negotiating position...

I actually think it weakens it.

My father is Northern Irish so I do have a small understanding of the animosity between the parties there from him, but he has always tried to teach me the dangers that promoting division can bring.
The whole Irish peace process is built on working together with people who hold the opposite view from you and I think us in England could use some of the same in that regard.

How are the DUP in a weak negotiating position? They are effectively the kingmakers at the moment with the Lib Dems refusing all offers.

People have heard me bang this drum before, but all reflection, we all lost in last night's election.

May is hopeless, Farron is a weasel, and whilst Corbyn is a welcome change, he offers 1970s solutions to 1970s problems.

Nobody talked about climate change, automation, citizen's income, genetic engineering, the rise of artificial intelligence, and big corporations becoming more powerful than nation states.

These challenges, plus Brexit, is what Britain faces in the 21st century.

What we got was yesterday's men and women, with yesterday's answers to yesterday's problems.

We've all lost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nfe wrote:
After 'Corbyn spoke to the IRA every day for decades because he's terrorist-loving commie maniac', I'll be looking forward to the press relelntlessly drawing attention to the days when later DUP politicians set up Ulster Resisitance and were smuggling RPGs into mainland Britain with the UVF.

For what it's worth, I think bringing people who have abandoned violence in favour of diplomacy into politics is a good thing, but in the interests of balance and all that.

Very good post

Agree AND disagree. The Tories didn't win and ended up weaker.

We all won.

But I still agree with all of your other points. It's just that an increased Tory majority was always the number one thing I was interested in avoiding, regardless of any other single factor.

Farron is a weasel

The Lib Dems really disappointed me under Farron, I wasn't keen on the tories this year, but Farron didn't offer me any reason to vote for him.

If Vince Cable can take over the leadership I think they will do a lot better, he was good as Business Minister.

 Kroem wrote:

How are the DUP in a weak negotiating position? They are effectively the kingmakers at the moment with the Lib Dems refusing all offers.

My bad, I though you meant the DUP's influence would make the government's brexit negotiating position stronger.

nfe wrote:

 gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:
This coupled with the fact that in about a months time they will have their annual hate fest consisting of celebrating a battle against Catholics a few hundred years ago and burning pictures of political opponents, it truly will be an eye opening few weeks for those in Britain.

Usually I'm in Israel for the 12th, but this year I'll be at home. Right in time for the renewed viguour with which bigots will march past my flat singing about wading in my blood. Happy days!

Don't forget it's cross community though .

Kroem wrote:
Come on now. yes the DUP hold some social views we disagree with , but being dismissive and contemptuous about a party that increased its vote share amongst Northern Irish voters is equally bad in my book.
.

It's stating facts when it comes to the DUP, while they constantly rant about SF and the IRA they seem to forget about their own links to the paramilitaries. With it going as far as the UDA posing for pictures and holding meetings with them a few days after killing a man in front of his son and actively out threating people not too vote against them.

It can be hard not to show contempt when there are videos of your local MP loading a gun saying how he would take to the streets to kill nationalists if he didn't get his way.

I have always thought it would be funny if the DUP got involved majorly in the politics in the UK as a lot of the things they get away with over here just would not sail over there. It'll be very interesting to see how the control themselves.

Well look at this...

https://trends.google.co.uk/trends/explore?date=now%201-d&geo=GB&q=%2Fm%2F01gb1c

That's a heck of a "Who are they!" spike...

 Kroem wrote:

Farron is a weasel

The Lib Dems really disappointed me under Farron, I wasn't keen on the tories this year, but Farron didn't offer me any reason to vote for him.

If Vince Cable can take over the leadership I think they will do a lot better, he was good as Business Minister.

I like Vince Cable. He's the only Lib Dem I've ever liked. Speaks a lot of sense. Would be more at home in the Labour party IMO.

Always liked Ming Campbell, Chuck Kennedy and Paddy Ashdown myself. Seemed like guys who had a bit of a clue. Unfortunately they've all either literally or figuratively gone next door.

Well, there's only so many ways events can unfold now.

1. May strikes coalition deal with Northern Irish MP's. Manages to somehow lead an exceedingly shaky coalition, with good odds it will collapse at some point (likely as Brexit wraps up), launching delayed Scenario 2.

2. May tries to form a minority government. Loses the majority of her votes, the knives come out, and she'll be replaced. Then there'll be another election once the Tories have established a successor.

3. May steps down now. The Tories pass the crown to Corbyn to hold whilst they sort out a successor. Corbyn tries to rule as a minority government. He'll generally fail, because he doesn't have anywhere near the votes, but he'll use the position as a platform to try and bounce off into another general election on the basis of 'I tried to pass this piece of legislation and the evil Tories blocked me.

Either 2 or 3 result in:-

a) People panic at the year long economic and political disturbances and go back to Tories.
b) Somehow Corbyn and co. demonstrate they've got the chops for leadership within that year and he wins a majority.
c) Corbyn gets another handful of seats, we have no clear majority again, and the whole thing relaunches. This is the most likely.


In other words, we could well be looking at years of political and economic upheaval right now, with nobody able to effectively pass legislation.

My bad, I though you meant the DUP's influence would make the government's brexit negotiating position stronger.

Ah Ok, yea I dunno what it would do to Brexit negotiations. They won't have to go to parliament for that again until they ave negotiated the final deal anyway though right?

It should make a hard border with the EU in Ireland less likely I would think.

I have always thought it would be funny if the DUP got involved majorly in the politics in the UK as a lot of the things they get away with over here just would not sail over there. It'll be very interesting to see how the control themselves.

It should be interesting! I'm glad things aren't so divided between countries this time though. It was worrying have a 'Scotland party' before and that has been addressed a little this time.
Interesting that Plaid managed to increase their seat numbers whilst decreasing their vote share. Tactical voting perhaps?

Y'know what? Given the most recent record from the government, "Nobody able to pass legislation" definitely looks like up.

To be honest the election should give everyone a bit of pause about their entrenched positions. I listened to Nicola Sturgeon this morning, and whilst she was clearly disappointed, she indicated that, and I paraphrase, she would be thinking introspectively about the direction she will take.

May needs to do the same, there is a real opposition to the line she has taken over Brexit, and the endorsement she sought is gone. She must negotiate, and compromise in order to get anything achieved. Labour are back to being a real opposition party who will hold the Tories to account. That's probably for the best, they'll have time to reorganise the party, re-invigorate their manifesto, and be ready to take on what left of the Tories in the next General Election.
I'm happy with that, I want a real alternative to red, yellow and blue neo-liberalism, and we look to finally be getting that.

I'm trying to keep my joy under control though, as someone tweeted recently, laughing at May is like laughing at the captain of the Titanic, and we're the passengers.

We've got a pretty grim near future looming, we need to prepare.

 Kroem wrote:

My bad, I though you meant the DUP's influence would make the government's brexit negotiating position stronger.

Ah Ok, yea I dunno what it would do to Brexit negotiations. They won't have to go to parliament for that again until they ave negotiated the final deal anyway though right?

It should make a hard border with the EU in Ireland less likely I would think.

I have always thought it would be funny if the DUP got involved majorly in the politics in the UK as a lot of the things they get away with over here just would not sail over there. It'll be very interesting to see how the control themselves.

It should be interesting! I'm glad things aren't so divided between countries this time though. It was worrying have a 'Scotland party' before and that has been addressed a little this time.
Interesting that Plaid managed to increase their seat numbers whilst decreasing their vote share. Tactical voting perhaps?

That might benefit us to be honest.

To be fair, the fact that the Irish will put a heavy wight on keeping that vital border is good. Ireland needs a soft border.
Its a key trade border. We been doing a deal with the Irish on various things for decades and should keep that going.

You know, when I think about it, Theresa May did stress the possibility of a coalition of chaos with links to terrorism. So don't have much to complain about, really.

I bet she's regretting that walking holiday now. If they'd just gone to Marbella and got hammered by the pool for a couple of weeks, she wouldn't have had her political revelation about another election in the first place.

 r_squared wrote:
May needs to do the same, there is a real opposition to the line she has taken over Brexit, and the endorsement she sought is gone.

I disagree.

In terms of the public, I think the rejection wasn't of her position on Brexit but of the Conservative manifesto.

She had stated many times before that she wanted a hard Brexit, and continued to remain strong in the polls. It was only when the Conservatives unveiled support for fox-hunting, taking the homes from the elderly to pay for their care, policing the internet etc. that they began to suffer.

if anything, I'd argue that a hard Brexit is about the only thing in the Conservative manifesto that actually has public support.

 Darkjim wrote:
I bet she's regretting that walking holiday now. If they'd just gone to Marbella and got hammered by the pool for a couple of weeks, she wouldn't have had her political revelation about another election in the first place.

I have no idea how old my fellow dakka members are, but I lived through the 1990s, and the Tory backbenchers made life fething hell for John Major.

May is weak, and all it takes is for 20-30 nutters on the backbenches to mumble some discontent, and May will roll up the white flag.

That is the future we have to look forward too...

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Kroem wrote:

Farron is a weasel

The Lib Dems really disappointed me under Farron, I wasn't keen on the tories this year, but Farron didn't offer me any reason to vote for him.

If Vince Cable can take over the leadership I think they will do a lot better, he was good as Business Minister.

I like Vince Cable. He's the only Lib Dem I've ever liked. Speaks a lot of sense. Would be more at home in the Labour party IMO.

He's a Labour defector.

Labour don't take traitors back in.

May has got the go to form a minority gov backed by DUP.

Just back from palace, and speaking at number 10.
Heavy allies with the DUP. Named them least twice.

Brexit... Brexit.. Largest party, now lets get to work. DUP Con, referenced as natural allies. Certainty alot, no real refrence to tgr election result.
Rather quick statement, 2 minutes at most.

Time table on Brexit is staying the same. No delays on the progress.

So scenario 1 appears to be kicking in. Let's hope the knives stay shuttered until after Brexit.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Darkjim wrote:
I bet she's regretting that walking holiday now. If they'd just gone to Marbella and got hammered by the pool for a couple of weeks, she wouldn't have had her political revelation about another election in the first place.

I have no idea how old my fellow dakka members are, but I lived through the 1990s, and the Tory backbenchers made life fething hell for John Major.

May is weak, and all it takes is for 20-30 nutters on the backbenches to mumble some discontent, and May will roll up the white flag.

That is the future we have to look forward too...

Yep, many of the same Bastards, and a next generation Rees-Mogg to boot

George Osborne's paper having an absolute whale of a time.

Remember what they said yesterday? Vote Corbyn and get a terrorist sympathiser as PM.

Well, now we have PM May being propped up by terrorist sympathisers...

The Tories: you really are a bunch of two faced

Very surprised by the result, I didn't realise Labour had managed to get such reach this time around, it must have reached a lot of youngsters.

And perhaps the first time that the front pages of tabloid papers (with the exception of the Mirror) haven't help determine the outcome?

As much as I like the fact that a Labour opposition might now be able to blunt the more Satan-worthy Tory policies, I don't think this is going to do much good in terms of the Brexit negotiations. May isn't going to be acting from anything like the position of strength she would have had, had she had an overwhelming majority, and the EU is going to know this when presenting their terms. Hard brexit or not, think there is every possibility that the next few years are going to be even more difficult than they might otherwise have been...

What's the job situation like in Germany at the moment?

 r_squared wrote:

 Darkjim wrote:
...You could possibly add the fact that Rupert Murdoch is reportedly very, very angry to that list. It's definitely one of my reasons to be cheerful currently.

If only I could see that for myself, my shadenfreude scale would explode in a fountain of glitter.

That is indeed a good bit of news, will hopefully wind up that blood pressure a few points higher.

SNP votes declined because although Scotland is majority pro-EU, Scotland is also majority pro-UK. Article 50 having been triggered, the argument is not about whether we should leave the EU because we will be kicked out in two years anyway. Therefore a lot of people voted against IndyRef2. They might be induced to vote in favour of EuroRef2, though.

UKIP vote collapsed because their battle has been fought and won. The UK will leave the EU in two years. Job done. All the talk about "holding the government's feet to the fire" for a hard Brexit was worthless because (1) the government was already driving for a hard Brexit and (2) hard Brexit isn't as popular as UKIP pub bores think it should be.

It turned out that while the Tory Party included a vociferous minority of "kippers", a lot of UKIP voters actually were Labour supporters and returned to their traditional allegiance. They were joined by a lot of energised youth voters, who are staring down the barrel of £50,000 of debt by their early 20s if they go to university.

Despite the above, the Conservatives managed to increase their share of the vote considerably compared to 2015. In "normal" circumstances, this would have been a landslide for May. But Labour increased their vote share even more.

The Tories can form a minority government and get stuff through the Commons with the support of the DUP. The DUP, though, is not in favour of Hard Brexit. They know it will cripple the NI economy.

As well as this, May will be in the same position as Major in his later PMship, when he minute majority was constantly under threat from anti-EU Tory rebels. Except this time it will be pro-EU Tory rebels.

The fact is, the country is so divided that we have achieved the pernicious effects of a PR system of voting without the benefits -- genuinely representative legislative mechanisms that ensure all views are properly heard, and the heritage of politicians used to operating in that environment.

Whoever is a fan of "sovereignty" and wants the entire country to be ruled by the 10 members of DUP? It's ridiculous.

Can anyone see the government lasting more than six months?

Who will replace May as leader of the Conservatives? Will he or she be able to win the ensuing election anyway?

What if the left-wing parties formed a genuine progressive alliance? The Tories got 43% of the votes this time. That was just about all the right-wing votes available, I should think, plus people who voted for "stong and stable" because of Brexit and now must be very disillusioned.

Given this is the second (informal) coalition in seven years, perhaps it is time that the UK gave genuine consideration to forming a constitution with a strong element of PR voting.

I would like to see a People's House of Lords replace the current unelected body.

So if I interpret the numbers correctly the Tories will form a parliament with 43,3% of the popular vote? (Tory 42,4%, DUP 0,9%)

Although Labour,SNP,Green party also only reach 44,6% together so it doesn't say much

Last time it was 37%.

It's an improvement, the Tories gained a lot from UKIP.


I'm just glad we have someone that the EU can talk to about Brexit. A savvy politician (which we lack) would ask for a grand coalition until Brexit is over.

But we don't have people like that any more.