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Whichever way you butter it, that was a great day for British Democracy.
Decent turnout, especially from the 18-25 age group. Tories de-fanged with the slimmest of majorities. The gutter press' position as kingmaker has been shaken if not shattered.
Best of all? Best of all? The Tories will now have to negotiate Brexit without a clear mandate. Always a fractious party at the best of time, they may struggle to pass anything truly outrageous (like binning human rights, regulating the internet China style).
And they've got no scapegoat when it all goes Tits up. It's all on them. They have to clean up the mess they created in the first place!
Short term this could sting a bit, as I'm sure some nasty idiotic policies will still squeak through. But long term? The Tory party may have just signed its own deathwarrant.
Corbyn, Terrorist Sympathiser they said. And now a lame duck Tory backed up by former terrorists.....whoops!
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
People overlook the fact that there is two sides to the negotiations. It's all very well for people to talk about soft Brexit, or reining in hard Brexit, but British authority stops at Dover.
The EU 27 might offer us a deal and tell us to take it or leave it, even if it is a steaming pile of bullgak.
Whichever way you butter it, that was a great day for British Democracy.
Decent turnout, especially from the 18-25 age group. Tories de-fanged with the slimmest of majorities. The gutter press' position as kingmaker has been shaken if not shattered.
Best of all? Best of all? The Tories will now have to negotiate Brexit without a clear mandate. Always a fractious party at the best of time, they may struggle to pass anything truly outrageous (like binning human rights, regulating the internet China style).
And they've got no scapegoat when it all goes Tits up. It's all on them. They have to clean up the mess they created in the first place!
Short term this could sting a bit, as I'm sure some nasty idiotic policies will still squeak through. But long term? The Tory party may have just signed its own deathwarrant.
Corbyn, Terrorist Sympathiser they said. And now a lame duck Tory backed up by former terrorists.....whoops!
All good points except the point about the power of the papers. Newspaper readership and sales have been declining in this country for years.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/09 17:43:50
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
I'm very disappointed that you didn't warn us about foul language in that video
He makes some good points though.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: People overlook the fact that there is two sides to the negotiations. It's all very well for people to talk about soft Brexit, or reining in hard Brexit, but British authority stops at Dover.
The EU 27 might offer us a deal and tell us to take it or leave it, even if it is a steaming pile of bullgak.
Whichever way you butter it, that was a great day for British Democracy.
Decent turnout, especially from the 18-25 age group. Tories de-fanged with the slimmest of majorities. The gutter press' position as kingmaker has been shaken if not shattered.
Best of all? Best of all? The Tories will now have to negotiate Brexit without a clear mandate. Always a fractious party at the best of time, they may struggle to pass anything truly outrageous (like binning human rights, regulating the internet China style).
And they've got no scapegoat when it all goes Tits up. It's all on them. They have to clean up the mess they created in the first place!
Short term this could sting a bit, as I'm sure some nasty idiotic policies will still squeak through. But long term? The Tory party may have just signed its own deathwarrant.
Corbyn, Terrorist Sympathiser they said. And now a lame duck Tory backed up by former terrorists.....whoops!
All good points except the point about the power of the papers. Newspaper readership and sales have been declining in this country for years.
They still have an insidious online presence. Lies and bile aren't on the news stands. They're popping up on your newsfeed.
I don't mean or imply a link between the gutter press and Britain First, but look at how Biffers manipulate social media....
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Sarouan wrote: Is the DUP's reputation that bad? I don't know them, so forgive my ignorance.
The suggestions is that they have some old links to unionist paramilitaries and terrorist actions back in the day when we all had to remember not to stand next to bins in case they blew up.
Recently they have been involved with a renewable heat scandal where they paid people to use wood pellets. Problem was that it wasn't a subsidy and they were paying about 1.6 times the amount of money than it did to buy the pellets and resulted in people basically heating empty barns because it was free cash. Not only this but they allowed contracts (and the suggestion even after they knew there was a problem) to continue to be signed and over the period of the contracts it's going to cost NI in the region of £0.5bn overall. I've also heard accusations/suggestions of fraud that once known there was a flaw in the contract the schemes were still continued and promoted to DUP supporters (i.e. unionists) whilst cutting out Sinn Fein (i.e. Irish nationalist supporters). Problem is that the head of DUP was in charge of the whole thing and Sinn Fein believe she knew what was going on and didn't act and therefore refuse to deal with her causing the NI assembly to collapse. This is concerning that they are not about to join in a power share with the government.
On top of this DUP are heavily anti-liberal when it comes to gay marriage, abortion and so on.
They are hence treated with some suspicion.
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Sarouan wrote: Is the DUP's reputation that bad? I don't know them, so forgive my ignorance.
The suggestions is that they have some old links to unionist paramilitaries and terrorist actions back in the day when we all had to remember not to stand next to bins in case they blew up.
Recently they have been involved with a renewable heat scandal where they paid people to use wood pellets. Problem was that it wasn't a subsidy and they were paying about 1.6 times the amount of money than it did to buy the pellets and resulted in people basically heating empty barns because it was free cash. Not only this but they allowed contracts (and the suggestion even after they knew there was a problem) to continue to be signed and over the period of the contracts it's going to cost NI in the region of £0.5bn overall. I've also heard accusations/suggestions of fraud that once known there was a flaw in the contract the schemes were still continued and promoted to DUP supporters (i.e. unionists) whilst cutting out Sinn Fein (i.e. Irish nationalist supporters). Problem is that the head of DUP was in charge of the whole thing and Sinn Fein believe she knew what was going on and didn't act and therefore refuse to deal with her causing the NI assembly to collapse. This is concerning that they are not about to join in a power share with the government.
On top of this DUP are heavily anti-liberal when it comes to gay marriage, abortion and so on.
They are hence treated with some suspicion.
A good summary. What's their stance on the EU? Were they Remain or Leave? I can't remember.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
A lot of people are getting carried away, but Article 50 was activated. The ship has sailed. Talk of staying in the EU is nonsense.
Naah, if you go back and ask nicely, there will be no problem. Just some pride being hurt, that's all.
Unfortunately, your politicians won't allow it. They don't like looking like buffoons - even if that doesn't keep them from being actual buffoons and everyone else knowing it.
It's probably going to take 10-15 years. The younger population do appear to be finding a voice and it is apparent that they don't really like what they see. *If* people carry the same views throughout life then as the majority (not all) supporters of the EU are young; and conversely the vast majority of Wrexit supporters are old then there will be a dynamic shift in time towards rejoining the EU. The reviews indicate that the vast majority of Remain vote areas favoured Labour gains and the Leave areas favoured Tory gains. Although Brexit didn't seem to be an issue it is odd that this has been in apparent in the statistics. It implies that there was still an undercurrent - perhaps Remainers are changing strategy, aim for a soft Brexit with open borders/open market/ECJ and ECHR access and then it makes life easier to rejoin in 10-15 years when they have the majority again.
A good summary. What's their stance on the EU? Were they Remain or Leave? I can't remember.
Edit looks like I was incorrect.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/09 18:38:41
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Sarouan wrote: Is the DUP's reputation that bad? I don't know them, so forgive my ignorance.
The suggestions is that they have some old links to unionist paramilitaries and terrorist actions back in the day when we all had to remember not to stand next to bins in case they blew up.
Recently they have been involved with a renewable heat scandal where they paid people to use wood pellets. Problem was that it wasn't a subsidy and they were paying about 1.6 times the amount of money than it did to buy the pellets and resulted in people basically heating empty barns because it was free cash. Not only this but they allowed contracts (and the suggestion even after they knew there was a problem) to continue to be signed and over the period of the contracts it's going to cost NI in the region of £0.5bn overall. I've also heard accusations/suggestions of fraud that once known there was a flaw in the contract the schemes were still continued and promoted to DUP supporters (i.e. unionists) whilst cutting out Sinn Fein (i.e. Irish nationalist supporters). Problem is that the head of DUP was in charge of the whole thing and Sinn Fein believe she knew what was going on and didn't act and therefore refuse to deal with her causing the NI assembly to collapse. This is concerning that they are not about to join in a power share with the government.
On top of this DUP are heavily anti-liberal when it comes to gay marriage, abortion and so on.
They are hence treated with some suspicion.
A good summary. What's their stance on the EU? Were they Remain or Leave? I can't remember.
They were very much leave and spent a massive amount of money on it, I think they were the only official leave party in the North and I think there was some dodgy money donations involving a business with links to the Saudi's.
A lot of people are getting carried away, but Article 50 was activated. The ship has sailed. Talk of staying in the EU is nonsense.
Naah, if you go back and ask nicely, there will be no problem. Just some pride being hurt, that's all.
Unfortunately, your politicians won't allow it. They don't like looking like buffoons - even if that doesn't keep them from being actual buffoons and everyone else knowing it.
Polls show that the vast majority of the UK public has accepted the referendum result, and want the work to be started.
In other words they've changed their mind. They might change their minds again. To be fair, though, the time to have avoided the possibility of Brexit was before Cameron stupidly put it in his manifesto.
ekwatts wrote: Calling the DUP homophobic, misogynistic, racist bigots isn't being a bit naughty. It's stating outright facts.
That the gutter press in the UK like The Sun, The Express and The Daily Mail tried to use Corbyns (idiotic, ill-advised) meetings with the IRA against him and for the Tories to instantly turn to the DUP, with their own dodgy links to loyalist paramilitaries, is absurd. But I understand that they don't really have any choice.
I'm afraid it's worse than naughty your spouting down right lies. What people need to be aware of is we have a very angry IRA caucus along side the usual agressive left wing reaction every time they loose.
Most loyalist paramilitaries will find it particularly difficult to vote for the DUP, they call them the grand old duke of York, for deserting and condeming them when they committed acts of violence. If you care to actually look at anything written by loyalist groups you won't find much possitive about the DUP. In recent times because of the spike in SF votes they have asked their members to vote DUP and Ulster Unionist, purely to protect the union, they have their own parties for local elections they just don't get enough support to stand for Westminster. Ulster Resistance never killed or maimed anyone, the DUP ran a mile from them when they found out some members had imported weapons. Remember this has to be taken in the context of a society exposed to generations of violence.
The moral and social outlook of the DUP is conservative yes, but no more so than you will find in your local baptist church or chapel for that matter. The individuals quoted as climate change deniers don't reflect party policy and you will find similar views in other parties. Their party leader is a woman so misogynistic is an odd label for them.
They are Christian in outlook and I know some people can't have a Christian about the place and will vilify them at every turn but there it is I can't do much about that.
It's likely they could be a moderating influence on Tory policy particularly pension protection and NHS security. But we will have to see how much influence they get.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MonkeyBallistic wrote: People are now asking if an alliance with the DUP is a massive, political mistake. It could mean that the UK government is no longer seen as a neutral party in the talks to restore the Northern Irish assembly.
Conservative Party have consistently stated they aren't neutral on the union. They are the conservative and Unionist Party after all
No disrespect to you or any other Northern Ireland dakka member, but I'd rather that Northern Ireland politics stayed in Northern Ireland.
Well therein lies a big part of the issue. For better or worse Northern Ireland is part of the UK and our politics is your politics. The welfare and stability of our province is certainly your responsibility much as you wish it otherwise.
The fact that we are the only part of the UK that has a land border with an EU member state makes it all the more important that NI politics should be a contributing factor in the Brexit process and not jut a poorly considered afterthought for a change.
When Mrs May suddenly recalls the full title of her party any time she happens to need the support of the Unionists it only highlights how much she takes their support for granted and ignors them the rest of the time hoping they and their politics will stay in NI. I for one am happy she's not getting it all her way. She's hitched her wagon to some of the most stubournly intransigent mules in the history of politics.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/09 18:47:04
Generally I think this election was about "Who you definitely don't want" leading the country which is why we got such a shift back to two party politics. I don't think it will last though. I think both Corbyn and May have polarised views to the extent that people will now tactically vote just to not have them in power as much as possible. This appears to be at the cost of UKIP (no concerns from me) but also to a lesser extent some of the smaller Left central parties (e.g. Greens).
However the FPTP system still heavily favoured the Tories. Quick calculations show full PR would have given us the following result:-
Tories (276 seats)
Labour (260 seats)
LD (48 seats)
SNP (20 seats)
UKIP (12 seats)
Green (10 seats)
DUP (6 seats)
Sinn Fein (5 seats)
Plaid (3 seats)
So basically by the popular vote Tories have 45 more seats than they really deserve from voter representation). In a hung parliament the right would have about 294 seats compared to the lefts 338 seats. Hence we yet again have a parliament that isn't particularly representative of the voting population.
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Sarouan wrote: Is the DUP's reputation that bad? I don't know them, so forgive my ignorance.
The suggestions is that they have some old links to unionist paramilitaries and terrorist actions back in the day when we all had to remember not to stand next to bins in case they blew up.
Recently they have been involved with a renewable heat scandal where they paid people to use wood pellets. Problem was that it wasn't a subsidy and they were paying about 1.6 times the amount of money than it did to buy the pellets and resulted in people basically heating empty barns because it was free cash. Not only this but they allowed contracts (and the suggestion even after they knew there was a problem) to continue to be signed and over the period of the contracts it's going to cost NI in the region of £0.5bn overall. I've also heard accusations/suggestions of fraud that once known there was a flaw in the contract the schemes were still continued and promoted to DUP supporters (i.e. unionists) whilst cutting out Sinn Fein (i.e. Irish nationalist supporters). Problem is that the head of DUP was in charge of the whole thing and Sinn Fein believe she knew what was going on and didn't act and therefore refuse to deal with her causing the NI assembly to collapse. This is concerning that they are not about to join in a power share with the government.
On top of this DUP are heavily anti-liberal when it comes to gay marriage, abortion and so on.
They are hence treated with some suspicion.
Ok......... first there is no political party in NI bar Sinn Fein who would claim the DUP are supporters of paramilitary groups. This is a nasty lie doing the rounds today. And Sinn Fein call the British army terrorists. The DUP have made many enemies with loyalist groups by condemning their every action.
The heat scandal was bad but it's certainly wasn't and there has never been any suggestion they promoted the scheme to DUP supporters and denied anyone else access to it. I can give you right now the names and addresses of IRA ex prisioners who are claiming from the scheme. Republican clubs are claiming from it!
Yes they are conservative socially and if you disagree with that well that's your right.
Truth is they are getting abuse because they are propping up a controversial government that's unpopular with the youth.
Despite the Tories winning, the narrative is against them, and very much in Corbyn and Labour's favour.
That's not just 'nyeah nyeah' from the peanut gallery at May pissing her majority up the wall, but her own backers and party.
Given the high youth vote turnout, that's incredibly important to the future of politics. Yes, their man ultimately lost. He's still resigned to Leader of the opposition.
All too easily the narrative could've been 'and the youth achieved nothing'. Such a narrative could've seen it being a fluke, a one off turnout rewarded with abject failure.
Instead, the narrative is showing that the youth vote is politically powerful. If you vote, you can, do and will make a real difference. That's only going to encourage greater youth participation in elections - and may even help get more boots on the ground during campaigns.
I'm genuinely excited for the future. The Tory/DUP coalition could easily collapse. We could easily be heading back to the polls in the next few months, especially if May is removed by her own party. And with the Youth Vote suddenly powerful and therefore desirable, we may see a shift in political priorities in all sections.
After all, the Elderly vote is time sensitive. Once the baby boomer start passing on en masse, you need to replace your party faithful from somewhere.
The younger the voter, the more long term you need to think to keep their vote.
Very interesting times ahead!
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Corbyn is going to kick May's arse all over the House during MP questions.
He's on fire. He's learned if you get a decent haircut, a good suit and a proper knot in your tie, and stop pouting, you can go a long way in politics.
On the subject of the youth vote, I am extremely glad to see the "voting never makes any difference so I don't bother" whiners have bucked up their ideas voted, and made a difference.
This election has been a bit surreal for me, what with working an average 12 hours, 6 days a week at the minute I almost forgot to vote! Then come this morning it took me a moment that I had voted when watching the news. Anyway, I am not shocked that things didn't go so well for Mrs May. Her Manifesto was a PR disaster that alienated a great many people and even myself (a non labour voter) liked a lot of the sensible ideas put forward by Corbyn. I do find it interesting that it has polarised the political parties to either the big red one or slightly bigger blue party. Yes it is a big blow for the Conservatives for now having to run with someone else, but if things go well and they join with the DUP (I know it is only for forced convenience). It could help strengthen the union with Northern Ireland whose polls waned a little with Brexit. Maybe they might better deal for themselves on the table rather than the usual Scotland, Scotland, and of course have we not mentioned forgetting Scotland. I didn't think we would see such a catastrophe for the SNP as had happened, particularly to the Conservative party. With Salmond out of the picture for good and Sturgeon on the ropes the SNP should focus on being a broader party rather than ramming down another independence referendum that is clearly not needed. Onto the Loony Democrats, all those who prophesied a resurrection of power and popularity they can eat humble pie. Glad to see Clegg resigned to history and the party on the brink of total failure. The current leader Farron is too slimy, he blames other politicians for not acting honourably yet will never answer a question faithfully himself. The Loony's hope of capturing all the EU faithful failed and shows at least we have more unity in the way forward with having Brexit even if we don't agree on which part is at the helm. It was no surprise that UKIP flopped and Nuttall abandoned ship. All in all and interesting election that was not so good for the Conservatives, over hyped as good but avoiding the fact they didn't win for Labour, SNP on the rocks and all the other small parties null and void. I hope Mrs May can make a good coalition and get the ball rolling for the immediate Brexit negotiations before any opponents throw mud at it and then blame her for the countries undoing.
On the local side:
You could not go physically 500 yards down a road without seeing a big blue 'Vote Conservative' sign. All the landowners were doing it, well it is a conservative heritage area after all, and goes without saying my long standing MP got re-elected again. Strangely there was not a single Labour sign at all, and even being a Labour free area I would have thought to have seen something. I did see some labour signs a little further out of my constituency but they had been vandalised. Stranger still the only other contender was for the Loony Democrats whose followers put up smaller yet eye catching signs next to the Conservatives. They looked exactly like those 'Danger to the environment' warning signs with the dead fish you see on tankers and I wonder if that put people off. Certainly did me.
My thoughts on the future:
Hopefully we see Brexit negotiations go ahead without hindrance from this election or by those who would use it as a scapegoat to try and stop it from happening. Corbyn is the clear opponent but whether he can keep such a strong face post campaign we will have to see. I find it funny he calls for Mrs May to resign, yet it was only last year that he faced even worse leadership scrutiny and was told to resign. Its interesting to see how his inner party opponents now gravitate to him. I think Scotland's perpetual referendum will be put on ice for a while as the SNP try to figure out what else they can focus on to claw back their losses. Has it been their high-water mark? Sturgeon certainly has a lot less political force now. Will UKIP cease to exist? Well the party might still be on paper but I doubt they will be in the news again. I think the Loony Democrats are dead in the water, and hopefully by the time the next election happens Brexit will be conclusive and Farron's twaddle will be officially meaningless. As for the Conservatives, it all depends on who they can/cannot join with but hopefully they will push on with Brexit. Whether they will win the next election is dependent on this, although by then I think the public would vote them out for the sake of change anyway.
Ok......... first there is no political party in NI bar Sinn Fein who would claim the DUP are supporters of paramilitary groups. This is a nasty lie doing the rounds today. And Sinn Fein call the British army terrorists. The DUP have made many enemies with loyalist groups by condemning their every action.
The heat scandal was bad but it's certainly wasn't and there has never been any suggestion they promoted the scheme to DUP supporters and denied anyone else access to it. I can give you right now the names and addresses of IRA ex prisioners who are claiming from the scheme. Republican clubs are claiming from it!
Yes they are conservative socially and if you disagree with that well that's your right.
Truth is they are getting abuse because they are propping up a controversial government that's unpopular with the youth.
No one is saying they are supporters. There are definitely suspicious links though. Saying they aren't there is like Sinn Fein don't have links with the IRA.
Well the British army did open up on civilians at times so it all depends on your point of view...
As for the heat scandal I'll just leave up these BBC articles and let people read them and research the links in their own time if they wish.
They are by far more than just 'conservative' they are downright homophobic at times (Tom Buchanan telling children homosexuality is an "abomination")
Or what about that people can't have abortions even unless it's life threatening and even those pregnant from rape will only be carefully considered (Arlene Foster, DUP)
And lets not forget that things like where they lobbied the national trust to include creationist 'theories' about the giants causeway being only 6000 years old.
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
ekwatts wrote: Calling the DUP homophobic, misogynistic, racist bigots isn't being a bit naughty. It's stating outright facts.
That the gutter press in the UK like The Sun, The Express and The Daily Mail tried to use Corbyns (idiotic, ill-advised) meetings with the IRA against him and for the Tories to instantly turn to the DUP, with their own dodgy links to loyalist paramilitaries, is absurd. But I understand that they don't really have any choice.
I'm afraid it's worse than naughty your spouting down right lies. What people need to be aware of is we have a very angry IRA caucus along side the usual agressive left wing reaction every time they loose.
Most loyalist paramilitaries will find it particularly difficult to vote for the DUP, they call them the grand old duke of York, for deserting and condeming them when they committed acts of violence. If you care to actually look at anything written by loyalist groups you won't find much possitive about the DUP. In recent times because of the spike in SF votes they have asked their members to vote DUP and Ulster Unionist, purely to protect the union, they have their own parties for local elections they just don't get enough support to stand for Westminster. Ulster Resistance never killed or maimed anyone, the DUP ran a mile from them when they found out some members had imported weapons. Remember this has to be taken in the context of a society exposed to generations of violence.
The moral and social outlook of the DUP is conservative yes, but no more so than you will find in your local baptist church or chapel for that matter. The individuals quoted as climate change deniers don't reflect party policy and you will find similar views in other parties. Their party leader is a woman so misogynistic is an odd label for them.
They are Christian in outlook and I know some people can't have a Christian about the place and will vilify them at every turn but there it is I can't do much about that.
It's likely they could be a moderating influence on Tory policy particularly pension protection and NHS security. But we will have to see how much influence they get.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MonkeyBallistic wrote: People are now asking if an alliance with the DUP is a massive, political mistake. It could mean that the UK government is no longer seen as a neutral party in the talks to restore the Northern Irish assembly.
Conservative Party have consistently stated they aren't neutral on the union. They are the conservative and Unionist Party after all
No disrespect to you or any other Northern Ireland dakka member, but I'd rather that Northern Ireland politics stayed in Northern Ireland.
Well therein lies a big part of the issue. For better or worse Northern Ireland is part of the UK and our politics is your politics. The welfare and stability of our province is certainly your responsibility much as you wish it otherwise.
The fact that we are the only part of the UK that has a land border with an EU member state makes it all the more important that NI politics should be a contributing factor in the Brexit process and not jut a poorly considered afterthought for a change.
When Mrs May suddenly recalls the full title of her party any time she happens to need the support of the Unionists it only highlights how much she takes their support for granted and ignors them the rest of the time hoping they and their politics will stay in NI. I for one am happy she's not getting it all her way. She's hitched her wagon to some of the most stubournly intransigent mules in the history of politics.
I appreciate and respect the fact that as things stand, Northern Ireland is part of the UK.
I grew up during the 1980s when bombs were going off in English cities and people were getting murdered in Belfast in what seemed like a daily basis
As a result, I have no great love for Northern Ireland politics, prefer to keep it at a distance, and quite honestly, prefer not to have Northern Ireland politics cross over into mainstream UK politics.
But as I say, it's not an attack against any individual from there, as I've met some great people from there over the years, and it's a lovely country.
I hope people can see where I'm coming from on this.
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Kilkrazy wrote: Corbyn is going to kick May's arse all over the House during MP questions.
He's on fire. He's learned if you get a decent haircut, a good suit and a proper knot in your tie, and stop pouting, you can go a long way in politics.
On the subject of the youth vote, I am extremely glad to see the "voting never makes any difference so I don't bother" whiners have bucked up their ideas voted, and made a difference.
Well done! Welcome to the body politic!!
My daughter turns 18 in early October.
Young people voting is obviously a good thing, but let's not forget that young get jobs and houses, get old, and tend to drift to the right.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/09 19:43:25
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Given the high youth vote turnout, that's incredibly important to the future of politics. Yes, their man ultimately lost. He's still resigned to Leader of the opposition.
All too easily the narrative could've been 'and the youth achieved nothing'. Such a narrative could've seen it being a fluke, a one off turnout rewarded with abject failure.
I think this could be a blessing in disguise for Corbyn. May is going to be hamstrung and not be able to introduce any controversial legislation. Even a tiny revolt by her own back benchers will stop it. I think she can say good by to Grammar schools and so forth. She's got to try and get both sides of the Brexit argument in her own party resolved but there will be some like IDS that will want full hard-on Wrexit, whereas those that support the EU will see the way the wind is blowing and realise that if they don't soften it at all that the youth vote, after realising it has some bite, might become even more powerful and fall in behind Corbyn further (and lets no forget that in 5 years time that is more Tory voters that have passed away and more young voters coming into the system). As such May is likely to be punished either way she runs. That means Brexit is going to be a complete disaster with the economical issues that brings forward. Any possibility of promoting the Tories as sensible will disappear and Labour could be looking at a landslide. Top this off with if they have to slide up to DUP any argument that Labour would be a coalition of chaos would fall apart.
I know someone from Ireland and there view is the DUP agreement won't last a year because they basically try and take the Tories to the cleaners with their shopping list.
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
@whirlwind. I'm sorry but Sinn Fein are actually part of the IRA they don't even try to hide it. Their members are commerated on the same memorials and speeches given at IRA gatherings are always given by Sinn Fein members. Sinn Fein sell IRA branded clothing and pictures in their shops. Many of their members are open about terrorist actions they have taken part in.
There is none of this with the DUP. You do realise that paramilitaries are people who live in our communities they are brothers, sons, fathers pretty much everyone and every organisation will have had or have people connected to paramilitaries in them or associated with them to some degree. But 99% abhored the violence. As did the DUP.
Young people voting is obviously a good thing, but let's not forget that young get jobs and houses, get old, and tend to drift to the right.
The problem is we don't really know this because there's an added complication that hasn't been there before. It's called education; generally this makes them more socially aware and higher educations usually relates to more left wing votes. We could be on the cusp of changing politics as the 90's and millennials have significantly better education and that might trump the age = conservative. We'll probably know over the next 15-20 years. If education trumps age then we will see a slow push of elderly voters moving towards left wing policies over time. Perhaps it is already happening, Tory supporter (as in those that have joined the party) base is already aging rapidly.
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
What's interested me is that we've just had a run of commentary on here that suggested that Brexit is a terrible idea, and instead of defending it, it's supporters have basically said it's a done deal that we can't get out of rather than defending it's integrity as a good idea.
How interesting.
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
There is none of this with the DUP. You do realise that paramilitaries are people who live in our communities they are brothers, sons, fathers pretty much everyone and every organisation will have had or have people connected to paramilitaries in them or associated with them to some degree. But 99% abhored the violence. As did the DUP.
They don't need to. They just need to sell union jack flags. The point is though that both have likely links to old paramilitaries, but it's better that we have peace now than both sides trying to blow large chunks of flesh out of each other. But people are still suspicious of those links and will continue to do so (you only have to look at the attacks on Corbyn).
What is more concerning today is things like the homophobic comments they put forward (as an example) and either the wilful, ignorant, or just incompetence that the RHI scheme implies. And this is a party that is going to go into a power share. Really it's desperation stakes by May and pretty much every decision she has made turns into a unmitigated disaster so this will probably end up being the same.
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r_squared wrote: What's interested me is that we've just had a run of commentary on here that suggested that Brexit is a terrible idea, and instead of defending it, it's supporters have basically said it's a done deal that we can't get out of rather than defending it's integrity as a good idea.
How interesting.
I think that might be from the realisation that the public at large might be starting to turn against the idea so the argument changes to "Too late now!"
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/09 20:00:10
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
A little off topic, but I was talking with my parent's about Ireland and the dup's alleged links to paramilitaries, and my dad started telling a funny anecdote about my late paternal great grandfather (i never knew him, he died before I was born) who was "involved" in the Irish civil war, but not in the way i expected.
Apparently when the ira were shooting down streets at British positions, my great grandfather would hold bystanders back until the shooting stopped then direct them to cross.the street when it was safe. Basically he was an Irish Lolly pop man..
He later served as an air raid warden for munition factories in Belfast in ww2.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/09 20:02:34
I'm giving up. I've learnt several things today. Mostly how little the English care about the union and how shamefully uneducated many of them can be about their neighbours. It's very sad. As someone who loves England, Wales, Scotland and NI and views our collective nations as a family I've found the hatred poured on my country and its people today on social media depressing beyond words.
Spin and GIFs on social media are what people consider education and knowledge on a people's history. This plays directly into the hands of the history rewriters.
Young people voting is obviously a good thing, but let's not forget that young get jobs and houses, get old, and tend to drift to the right.
The problem is we don't really know this because there's an added complication that hasn't been there before. It's called education; generally this makes them more socially aware and higher educations usually relates to more left wing votes. We could be on the cusp of changing politics as the 90's and millennials have significantly better education and that might trump the age = conservative. We'll probably know over the next 15-20 years. If education trumps age then we will see a slow push of elderly voters moving towards left wing policies over time. Perhaps it is already happening, Tory supporter (as in those that have joined the party) base is already aging rapidly.
I disagree. In the last 100 years, the Conservatives have been in power for what, 80% of the time? And many of their supporters and MPs would have been university educated.
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r_squared wrote: What's interested me is that we've just had a run of commentary on here that suggested that Brexit is a terrible idea, and instead of defending it, it's supporters have basically said it's a done deal that we can't get out of rather than defending it's integrity as a good idea.
How interesting.
I would vote for Brexit again tomorrow. I have no regrets. Just because the Tories can't organise a funeral in a graveyard, doesn't mean that leaving the EU is a bad idea.
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Knockagh wrote: I'm giving up. I've learnt several things today. Mostly how little the English care about the union and how shamefully uneducated many of them can be about their neighbours. It's very sad. As someone who loves England, Wales, Scotland and NI and views our collective nations as a family I've found the hatred poured on my country and its people today on social media depressing beyond words.
Spin and GIFs on social media are what people consider education and knowledge on a people's history. This plays directly into the hands of the history rewriters.
Well, I hope you stay on this forum. I might not agree with you, but I do enjoy debating with people on different issues.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/09 20:10:59
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
r_squared wrote: What's interested me is that we've just had a run of commentary on here that suggested that Brexit is a terrible idea, and instead of defending it, it's supporters have basically said it's a done deal that we can't get out of rather than defending it's integrity as a good idea.
How interesting.
I would vote for Brexit again tomorrow. I have no regrets. Just because the Tories can't organise a funeral in a graveyard, doesn't mean that leaving the EU is a bad idea...
Just because you'll vote for it again, doesn't mean it's a good idea either.
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
There is none of this with the DUP. You do realise that paramilitaries are people who live in our communities they are brothers, sons, fathers pretty much everyone and every organisation will have had or have people connected to paramilitaries in them or associated with them to some degree. But 99% abhored the violence. As did the DUP.
They don't need to. They just need to sell union jack flags. The point is though that both have likely links to old paramilitaries, but it's better that we have peace now than both sides trying to blow large chunks of flesh out of each other. But people are still suspicious of those links and will continue to do so (you only have to look at the attacks on Corbyn).
What is more concerning today is things like the homophobic comments they put forward (as an example) and either the wilful, ignorant, or just incompetence that the RHI scheme implies. And this is a party that is going to go into a power share. Really it's desperation stakes by May and pretty much every decision she has made turns into a unmitigated disaster so this will probably end up being the same.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
r_squared wrote: What's interested me is that we've just had a run of commentary on here that suggested that Brexit is a terrible idea, and instead of defending it, it's supporters have basically said it's a done deal that we can't get out of rather than defending it's integrity as a good idea.
How interesting.
I think that might be from the realisation that the public at large might be starting to turn against the idea so the argument changes to "Too late now!"
I think it is more a matter of now the process has started it has to be finished, should the public want to think again after that, well then it is up to the ruling party to make the call. Whatever the case, the true begging's are set to happen very soon now. Whether the majority of the public has changed their minds isn't yet fact. I believe people are now sick of hearing about Brexit in the news and that the election results were more about home politics rather than international politics. The Conservatives lost votes because their Manifesto was bad, particularly to elderly voters who make up a great deal of support. Labour swelled through these losses and with the collapse of UKIP. I think people voted Labour because Corbyn promised change and investment on things like the NHS and schools were as the Conservatives didn't and we all got fed up of moaning about it. It is probably true Labour got more youth votes with offering great incentives like free tuition with a huge government debt backlog etc combined with a heavily invested 'share this' social media campaign. It will be interesting to see if this age group stay like minded as they age or whether they become more money conscience and drift towards the right. I think Tim Farron did poorly because he focused too much on turning the tide of Brexit rather than on home affairs like Corbyn. Still I can't fault how Labour performed and it got more people to go out and vote, my sister a prime example hoping to go to university end of this year would not vote before, but with Corbyn saying the right messages for students and it becomes popular online to be affiliated with labour for the election, she went out and voted. I never thought that would happen!
Not to drift to far off topic with Northern Ireland, was it the DUP that caused that huge wood chipping scandal whereby they were paying people more money than it cost to buy wood pellets and people were heating empty buildings to live off the subsidy? Am I making this up? I am sure I heard this somewhere.
r_squared wrote: What's interested me is that we've just had a run of commentary on here that suggested that Brexit is a terrible idea, and instead of defending it, it's supporters have basically said it's a done deal that we can't get out of rather than defending it's integrity as a good idea.
How interesting.
I would vote for Brexit again tomorrow. I have no regrets. Just because the Tories can't organise a funeral in a graveyard, doesn't mean that leaving the EU is a bad idea...
Just because you'll vote for it again, doesn't mean it's a good idea either.
That's true, but we are were we are. The DUP supported Leave, so I think Brexit will continue on its merry way.
You're also forgetting that Corbyn has been anti-EEC/EU for decades, something a lot of his supporters seem to have overlooked.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Knockagh wrote: I'm giving up. I've learnt several things today. Mostly how little the English care about the union and how shamefully uneducated many of them can be about their neighbours. It's very sad. As someone who loves England, Wales, Scotland and NI and views our collective nations as a family I've found the hatred poured on my country and its people today on social media depressing beyond words.
Spin and GIFs on social media are what people consider education and knowledge on a people's history. This plays directly into the hands of the history rewriters.
I have to say it reminded me this morning how little anyone outside of NI understands about NI. I had to explain to 2 colleagues exactly who they were, which is understandable, but they thought they were a European remainer party, because they were unionists.
They were dismayed that a remainer party could be in coalition with the conservatives and thought it was a plot to get us back in the EU.
That took me back a bit. Out of mischief, I nearly went along with it to wind them up, but I decided not to be a dick.
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
