Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Yet he still won a victory, as he stripped away May's majority, leaving her a lame duck.

May be so, but I think we can all blame ourselves for the current political mess. 1) If May didn't call and election this result would never have happened, 2) If those that could have but didn't vote bothered to get up we might have had a stronger result, 3) If we had all voted in favour of one party substantially more stronger than the other we would have a solid government. As it stands too many people defected from the Torries yet too few bothered to vote Labour. Corbyn is the luckiest loser in modern politics, he did no better than the last election, but I give him credit for pulling through all the hell thrown at him as he struggled to be party leader. If May had maintained a solid majority Corbyn would have been thrown to the wolves. So you could argue May ruined the government with the election just as much as Corbyn has ruined our political strength by weakening the Conservatives and still losing, just in time to start Brexit talks. Lovely.

 Whirlwind wrote:
Apparently Corbyn and Labour now have a six point lead in the polls compared to the Conservatives.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-party-jeremy-corbyn-lead-theresa-may-conservatives-tories-survation-poll-general-election-a7784171.html

That puts DUP even more in the driving seat as another election could see Tories completely losing completely and putting Labour in the clear majority.

To be honest I still can't quite believe what has happened - 12 months ago it looked like Labour were in a complete mess, now it's the Tories and basically doing things that just help the opposition.

The modern system of choosing whom to vote for based on the personality appeal of the leader played into Corbyn's hands once he upped his game. Once Corbyn found his mojo, he only got better. He has an unassailable morale advantage over May now. She is going to be humiliated weekly at PM Question Time and it's difficult to see who is going to get picked for next Conservative leader. My money would be on Hammond or Davidson, but for anyone it is now a poisoned chalice. I am led to think it might be best for the Tories to call another election, lose it badly and let Labour take the rap for the post-Brexit crash. The danger is that if Labour got a great, soft Brexit deal, there wouldn't be a crash, they would be the heroes of the nation and could end up winning the next two elections.

 Sentinel1 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Yet he still won a victory, as he stripped away May's majority, leaving her a lame duck.

May be so, but I think we can all blame ourselves for the current political mess. 1) If May didn't call and election this result would never have happened, 2) If those that could have but didn't vote bothered to get up we might have had a stronger result, 3) If we had all voted in favour of one party substantially more stronger than the other we would have a solid government. As it stands too many people defected from the Torries yet too few bothered to vote Labour. Corbyn is the luckiest loser in modern politics, he did no better than the last election, but I give him credit for pulling through all the hell thrown at him as he struggled to be party leader. If May had maintained a solid majority Corbyn would have been thrown to the wolves. So you could argue May ruined the government with the election just as much as Corbyn has ruined our political strength by weakening the Conservatives and still losing, just in time to start Brexit talks. Lovely.

Not sure you can lay any of this blame at Corbyn's feet though?

May called the election out of opportunism, seeing the chance to bury the Labour Party and force through her vision of Brexit.

Labour naturally came out fighting, closed the 20 point gap to 3, and May pissed her majority up the wall - Labour gained seats for the first time since the landslide win of 1997. And not only that, but in the face of one of the most vile campaigns ever carried out by our gutter press, repeatedly printing outright lies about Jeremy Corbyn in a childish attempt to smear him.

This. All of this. Is on Theresa May and her party. They fought a disastrous campaign with a frankly idiotic 'eff everyone' manifesto of sheer stupidity.

And worse for May? She's now got into bed with a fringe lunatic party with close ties to Irish terrorism. That was the one thing, the only thing, that her media attack dogs had on Corbyn once suitably distorted (after all, the Irish troubles did end up round the negotiation table, something Corbyn was trying to facilitate, and continues to correctly support). So if/when this government collapses and we head back to the polls, they've got absolutely nothing on Jeremy Corbyn or his politics - politics which are clearly proving very popular with an electorate still suffering from a financial collapse that happened 10 years ago, whilst those truly responsible continue much the same.

Corbyn hasn't ruined our political strength. May sacrificed it for the promise of power.

However, it has strengthened our democracy. For the first time in a long time, we have a choice between Right and Left wing. The days of Tory or Diet Tory seem over. And having that choice forces both parties back toward the middle ground as the Labour manifesto proved. It was fully costed, and all the suggestions and pledges were to improve things for everyone, not just the already wealthy and powerful.

Secretary of Labour Party NI just tweeted on DUP


kathryn johnston @kathrynjohnston
For all the many political difficulties I have with @Duponline, they are NOT terrorist sympathisers, contrary to British media demonisation.

But English people who only heard of them 2 days ago and have done extensive googling know better!

 Knockagh wrote:
Secretary of Labour Party NI just tweeted on DUP


kathryn johnston @kathrynjohnston
For all the many political difficulties I have with @Duponline, they are NOT terrorist sympathisers, contrary to British media demonisation.

But they were formed by people who had been members of Ulster Resistance, right? That used to get up to hijinks like smuggling RPGs into Britain?

That's a lot closer than Corbyn, who was relentlessly monstered by the press, so they've heehaw chance of being taken seriously, I'm afraid.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Not sure you can lay any of this blame at Corbyn's feet though?

May called the election out of opportunism, seeing the chance to bury the Labour Party and force through her vision of Brexit.

Labour naturally came out fighting, closed the 20 point gap to 3, and May pissed her majority up the wall - Labour gained seats for the first time since the landslide win of 1997. And not only that, but in the face of one of the most vile campaigns ever carried out by our gutter press, repeatedly printing outright lies about Jeremy Corbyn in a childish attempt to smear him.

This. All of this. Is on Theresa May and her party. They fought a disastrous campaign with a frankly idiotic 'eff everyone' manifesto of sheer stupidity.

And worse for May? She's now got into bed with a fringe lunatic party with close ties to Irish terrorism. That was the one thing, the only thing, that her media attack dogs had on Corbyn once suitably distorted (after all, the Irish troubles did end up round the negotiation table, something Corbyn was trying to facilitate, and continues to correctly support). So if/when this government collapses and we head back to the polls, they've got absolutely nothing on Jeremy Corbyn or his politics - politics which are clearly proving very popular with an electorate still suffering from a financial collapse that happened 10 years ago, whilst those truly responsible continue much the same.

Corbyn hasn't ruined our political strength. May sacrificed it for the promise of power.

However, it has strengthened our democracy. For the first time in a long time, we have a choice between Right and Left wing. The days of Tory or Diet Tory seem over. And having that choice forces both parties back toward the middle ground as the Labour manifesto proved. It was fully costed, and all the suggestions and pledges were to improve things for everyone, not just the already wealthy and powerful.

Ok, I admit Corbyn isn't the number 1 reason for this mess, but for all his greatness his party failed to gain enough ground to win. Corbyn is now no.1 antagonist to the conversatives. He can now spue out as much or as little as he likes basking in media success. This makes him and his party a big political force that could now influence the Brexit deal and that makes me slightly concerned. I don't want to see a watered down Brexit deal. I agree with you that there is at last a surge in interest in politics and we are now getting a much better and clearer democratic choice. Don't get me wrong I do like a lot of what Corbyn's Labour is proposing. I also agree with you that the Conservative manifesto was a PR disaster! What were they thinking? I don't agree with you about 'the fringe lunatic party'. This stupid media scare and smear campaign shouldn't be believed. There is nothing wrong with the DUP and they are a popular party in northern Ireland. In comparison never forget that Sinn Fein is gaelic for IRA, who won less seats.

 Sentinel1 wrote:
There is nothing wrong with the DUP and they are a popular party in northern Ireland.

There's plenty wrong with them, depending on your perspective. Being popular, or not being alone in their positions, doesn't change their opposition to equal rights for homosexuals, or make irrelevant that they include many climate change deniers and members of the Orange Order. If you aren't rather conservative, then the likelihood is that you're going to find them frequently repulsive.

nfe wrote:

 Sentinel1 wrote:
There is nothing wrong with the DUP and they are a popular party in northern Ireland.

There's plenty wrong with them, depending on your perspective. Being popular, or not being alone in their positions, doesn't change their opposition to equal rights for homosexuals, or make irrelevant that they include many climate change deniers and members of the Orange Order. If you aren't rather conservative, then the likelihood is that you're going to find them frequently repulsive.

You can be conservative and find the DUP odious as well.

I consider anyone who favours the word of an Iron Age book over modern scientific evidence to be a fringe lunatic...

 Mr. Burning wrote:

nfe wrote:

 Sentinel1 wrote:
There is nothing wrong with the DUP and they are a popular party in northern Ireland.

There's plenty wrong with them, depending on your perspective. Being popular, or not being alone in their positions, doesn't change their opposition to equal rights for homosexuals, or make irrelevant that they include many climate change deniers and members of the Orange Order. If you aren't rather conservative, then the likelihood is that you're going to find them frequently repulsive.

You can be conservative and find the DUP odious as well.

Certainly. And that's why allying with them is going to really hurt the Tories. Paternalistic, largely-centrist-but-right-leaning swing voters are going to be appalled when they actually become familiar with them.

It might be worth stressing that vast numbers of people in Britain really have absolutely no knowledge of NI politics or culture whatsoever. So writing the DUP's increased proiminence off because they're just a perfectly normal part of NI politics is really missing the point of how paradigm shifting their appearance in the spotlight could be. I teach in a university and every year loads of new British students from pretty much anywhere bar the west of Scotland are totally bewlidered by Orange marches. They have no idea what they are and are almost always utterly appalled once they've gone and googled it. There's regularly an unsettling superiority in British politics and it's perception of anything alien that tends towards the condescending at best, and the outright hubristic at worst, and for many British voters, NI really might as well be Mars.

nfe wrote:

 Knockagh wrote:
Secretary of Labour Party NI just tweeted on DUP


kathryn johnston @kathrynjohnston
For all the many political difficulties I have with @Duponline, they are NOT terrorist sympathisers, contrary to British media demonisation.

But they were formed by people who had been members of Ulster Resistance, right? That used to get up to hijinks like smuggling RPGs into Britain?

That's a lot closer than Corbyn, who was relentlessly monstered by the press, so they've heehaw chance of being taken seriously, I'm afraid.

Ulster Resistance were a legal organisation that only lasted a very short time. The UVF and UDA infiltrated UR to see if there was any potential in the organisation. They discovered a few hardcore activists and they were involved in bringing in arms. At this point the DUP ran a mile. They left UR and condemned it completely. So much so loyalists have to this day nicknamed them 'the grand old duke of york' as they walked away at the top of the hill, leaving them as they saw it to finish the business and take the war to the IRA.
This hatred between the DUP and the loyalists still is pretty potent. The Progressive Unionist Party who are actually the political wing of loyalist paramilitaries spit venom over the DUP and their failure to support them during the conflict, the DUP worked against loyalist prisoners welfare groups and stated their prisoner should not be released after any agreement.

It's only in recent years that some politicians have decided to try and bring loyalists in from the cold and try to make them more politically aware to help them move beyond the conflict. This is what they are taking flak for. Talking to people they despised since 1969 and trying to improve the lot for working class loyalist communities. The endorsement for mainstream political parties was supposed to be a big move in the right direction for them which has obviously backfired big time. Due solely to ignorance

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I consider anyone who favours the word of an Iron Age book over modern scientific evidence to be a fringe lunatic...

They mostly dig the Hellenistic bits [/pedant]

nfe wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:

nfe wrote:

 Sentinel1 wrote:
There is nothing wrong with the DUP and they are a popular party in northern Ireland.

There's plenty wrong with them, depending on your perspective. Being popular, or not being alone in their positions, doesn't change their opposition to equal rights for homosexuals, or make irrelevant that they include many climate change deniers and members of the Orange Order. If you aren't rather conservative, then the likelihood is that you're going to find them frequently repulsive.

You can be conservative and find the DUP odious as well.

Certainly. And that's why allying with them is going to really hurt the Tories. Paternalistic, largely-centrist-but-right-leaning swing voters are going to be appalled when they actually become familiar with them.

It might be worth stressing that vast numbers of people in Britain really have absolutely no knowledge of NI politics or culture whatsoever. So writing the DUP's increased proiminence off because they're just a perfectly normal part of NI politics is really missing the point of how paradigm shifting their appearance in the spotlight could be. I teach in a university and every year loads of new British students from pretty much anywhere bar the west of Scotland are totally bewlidered by Orange marches. They have no idea what they are and are almost always utterly appalled once they've gone and googled it. There's regularly an unsettling superiority in British politics and it's perception of anything alien that tends towards the condescending at best, and the outright hubristic at worst, and for many British voters, NI really might as well be Mars.

The NI situation bas been off UK radar as such for years. People had to even ask what DUP was etc.
Its never been of needed intrest for the mainland in detail for a while so no one ever asked the questions.

Its what 20-30 some MP's of 650, a one 20th they could choose to ignore for then, but now have to look afresh.

nfe wrote:

 Knockagh wrote:
Secretary of Labour Party NI just tweeted on DUP


kathryn johnston @kathrynjohnston
For all the many political difficulties I have with @Duponline, they are NOT terrorist sympathisers, contrary to British media demonisation.

But they were formed by people who had been members of Ulster Resistance, right? That used to get up to hijinks like smuggling RPGs into Britain?

That's a lot closer than Corbyn, who was relentlessly monstered by the press, so they've heehaw chance of being taken seriously, I'm afraid.

I don't think there is much point replying to Knockagh, he seems to be content just ignoring facts that are laid out in front of him or else just doesn't want to reply to them. I don't think this conversation is helped by the fact I doubt he believes the loyalist paramilitaries to be real terrorists.

I've layed out layer after layer of facts that no one has disputed and I haven't said anyone should be ignored. I'm well aware you are a republican or nationalist and I'm not telling people to ignore you. The false narrative suits you.

Well you stated that many loyalist paramilitaries would find it 'particularly difficult' to vote DUP which is simply not true, they seem to be plenty paly.

The line saying that the DUP were against violence is also simply not true many of their members have been at and supported loyalist paramilitary rallies, serving in the UDR or else threatened violence if there was a united Ireland.

I never claimed that you told people to ignore? So I'm not sure where tat has come from, and I'm not sure what my false narrative is as everything that I've said about the DUP can be backed up by facts.

You're wrong Mad Doc, we don't have a choice between left and right. We have a choice between left and a weird hodgepodge of all the worst bits of the centre and all the worst bits of the right, as far as I can see. I just wish the tories would get their act together, boot out May, find someone competent, and make a proper, right wing, socially liberal (to an extent) and fiscally conservative party out of themselves.

Not gonna happen whilst they're beholden to the gutter press.

Secret meetings with Murdoch? Daily Mail editor invited to Downing Street? Clear input into policy?

The Tories need a good political kicking if they're ever going to change. And right now, that might very well be on the cards.

But that still doesn't get them out the grip of Dacre, Murdoch and co. And until that happens, our democracy is at the mercy of off-shore billionaires purely out for themselves.

 Sentinel1 wrote:
In comparison never forget that Sinn Fein is gaelic for IRA.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but Sinn Feinn is Irish gaelic for "we ourselves", not Irish Republican Army.

 gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:
Well you stated that many loyalist paramilitaries would find it 'particularly difficult' to vote DUP which is simply not true, they seem to be plenty paly.

The line saying that the DUP were against violence is also simply not true many of their members have been at and supported loyalist paramilitary rallies, serving in the UDR or else threatened violence if there was a united Ireland.

I never claimed that you told people to ignore? So I'm not sure where tat has come from, and I'm not sure what my false narrative is as everything that I've said about the DUP can be backed up by facts.

Anyone who knows anything about loyalist paramilitaries knows they hated the DUP for years. There are a multitude of works out there to back it up. I personally knew David Ervine who led the UVFs political wing and he spat venom daily about them. Here's a guardian article says as much

.https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2007/jan/08/obituaries.northernireland

The UDR were a regiment in the British Army until they merged with the Royal Irish Regiment. The UDR received a standing ovation at the yearly commeration ceremony in London in the Albert Hall, the Queen herself in attendance. The only regiment to do so. The entire regiment was awarded the Conspicuous Gallantry Cross after they merged with the Royal Irish in recognition of their services.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Voting Leave didn't and doesn't equate to leaving the single market though.

Look back at their campaign. Even Farage said so.

But when your position is absolute no to free movement which in turn is absolute requirement for access to single market it effectively means it.

No free movement, no single market. How many leave voters were willing to have free movement after brexit? Seems more like no free movement was whole point of leave vote. Which in turn means voting leave meant leaving single market.

 Knockagh wrote:

 gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:
Well you stated that many loyalist paramilitaries would find it 'particularly difficult' to vote DUP which is simply not true, they seem to be plenty paly.

The line saying that the DUP were against violence is also simply not true many of their members have been at and supported loyalist paramilitary rallies, serving in the UDR or else threatened violence if there was a united Ireland.

I never claimed that you told people to ignore? So I'm not sure where tat has come from, and I'm not sure what my false narrative is as everything that I've said about the DUP can be backed up by facts.

Anyone who knows anything about loyalist paramilitaries knows they hated the DUP for years. There are a multitude of works out there to back it up. I personally knew David Ervine who led the UVFs political wing and he spat venom daily about them. Here's a guardian article says as much

.https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2007/jan/08/obituaries.northernireland

The UDR were a regiment in the British Army until they merged with the Royal Irish Regiment. The UDR received a standing ovation at the yearly commeration ceremony in London in the Albert Hall, the Queen herself in attendance. The only regiment to do so. The entire regiment was awarded the Conspicuous Gallantry Cross after they merged with the Royal Irish in recognition of their services.

That doesn't take away from the fact here and now the DUP and UDA are very chummy with the UDA for gods sake Foster was meeting with them days after they killed a man and in the past the weren't exactly sworn enemies were they? 1., 2., 3.

While I'm sure you're right about Ervine not liking the DUP they were in different political so not much of a surprise. I can find no mention of them in that article and even if the UVF didn't agree with them it doesn't mean they aren't linked to the UDA, the IRSP aren't too fond of SF, doesn't mean that SF weren't linked with the IRA.

Regarding the UDR I was simply saying for people who hate violence they had a lot of people who were in the army. The UDR weren't exactly all flowers and picnics either they were pretty tied in with loyalist paramilitaries like the Glenanne Gang.

tneva82 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Voting Leave didn't and doesn't equate to leaving the single market though.

Look back at their campaign. Even Farage said so.

But when your position is absolute no to free movement which in turn is absolute requirement for access to single market it effectively means it.

No free movement, no single market. How many leave voters were willing to have free movement after brexit? Seems more like no free movement was whole point of leave vote. Which in turn means voting leave meant leaving single market.

There's been several discussions on this. The problem with this is this that it implies an anti immigration stance which falls on the soft side of bigotry. The arguments being it depresses wages (research shows no statistical difference), places greater pressure on the nhs (not significantly as most Europe migrants are young and use it much less than our aging population) and takes school places (more an issue that education funding has been cut relatively, we still have less children in the system than we is in the 70s). It is probably better to say there is a significant minority that are both vocal and anti immigration that the tories have tried to persuade to leave ukip and join them for ultra hard Wrexit. The problem being is that we need immigration to keep our economy strong and support the older generation (that ironically make up most of the ukip crowd). Without immigration the number of nurses, farm workers and so on is significantly less and in the long term is likely to have significant impacts and result in major cuts to what we have today (like the nhs).

On aside I see they have resurrected Gove

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/michael-gove-reshuffle-environment-secretary_uk_593d9b57e4b0c5a35ca08058?ir=UK+Politics&utm_hp_ref=uk-politics

As environment secretary which beggars believe, more like "Get rid of the environment secretary". Also can imagine this is the only way May can prevent him from stabbing her in the back.

Ok folks I'm sorry to have to be the one to lay out the history lesson lesson here but it looks like its sorely needed.
I'll try and keep it to the broad strokes.

Imagine if you can a political climate where Class wasn't the most significant dividing line between ideologies. In Ireland, yes there was Class distinction but it was also accompanied by cultural/religious division.

So while labour movements in mainland UK flourished, the same wasnt so in the divided working class in Ireland.
The Upper class were all the more able to keep wages and conditions poor with the threat of giving the jobs to the other side. Working class folks did band together though, not so much as workers unions but more along cultural lines.
This we have the Order of Hibernians and the Orange order. (Take a look at the banners and trappings of Orange marches and compare to those of major English workers Unions and you'll notice the similarity)

Now long story short, World War, Irish war of Independence, partition of Ireland, Second World War, Civil Rights movements, Troubles, negotiations, troubles, cease fire, troubles, ceasefire, negotiations, peace process, power sharing, falling out, suspended assembly, on, off, on, off.

Now through it all Labour movements have come and gone and started and faltered and tried and failed through lack of support largely due to the same division. But that said there have been significant contributions along the way from those willing to court both sides (always an unpopular position but sorely necessary) whose efforts have led to any progress there ever has been but honestly whose names are likely not to be remembered by most today who seem intent on supporting the two most ideologically entrenched parties lest the vote swing too much in favour of the other side. (sound familiar?)
So while we do have legitimately progressive political options in Northern Ireland their support is sadly being stripped away to the DUP and SF neither of whom have proven able to actually keep the Assembly in operation to properly govern the country.

Sounds very similar to the overwhelming support for the Tories and Labour that has led to this train wreck of a government only the ideology dividing political opinion isn't class its culture. And a deeply conservative (small c) set of cultures at that, whose religious beliefs have been maintained through a century of dogged clinging on amidst fear and bloodshed while the rest of the UK progressed a more liberal social agenda.

That's why NI is the way it is. At least as far as I understand it.

 Whirlwind wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Voting Leave didn't and doesn't equate to leaving the single market though.

Look back at their campaign. Even Farage said so.

But when your position is absolute no to free movement which in turn is absolute requirement for access to single market it effectively means it.

No free movement, no single market. How many leave voters were willing to have free movement after brexit? Seems more like no free movement was whole point of leave vote. Which in turn means voting leave meant leaving single market.

There's been several discussions on this. The problem with this is this that it implies an anti immigration stance which falls on the soft side of bigotry. The arguments being it depresses wages (research shows no statistical difference), places greater pressure on the nhs (not significantly as most Europe migrants are young and use it much less than our aging population) and takes school places (more an issue that education funding has been cut relatively, we still have less children in the system than we is in the 70s). It is probably better to say there is a significant minority that are both vocal and anti immigration that the tories have tried to persuade to leave ukip and join them for ultra hard Wrexit. The problem being is that we need immigration to keep our economy strong and support the older generation (that ironically make up most of the ukip crowd). Without immigration the number of nurses, farm workers and so on is significantly less and in the long term is likely to have significant impacts and result in major cuts to what we have today (like the nhs).

On aside I see they have resurrected Gove

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/michael-gove-reshuffle-environment-secretary_uk_593d9b57e4b0c5a35ca08058?ir=UK+Politics&utm_hp_ref=uk-politics

As environment secretary which beggars believe, more like "Get rid of the environment secretary". Also can imagine this is the only way May can prevent him from stabbing her in the back.

I sew they hired a necromancer to help build the government.

Unconfirmed reports of activity around Thatchers grave.

I really can't see how anyone can claim Corbs won.


He went against an opponent who shot themselves in both feet, accidentally cut off their head whilst shaving and generally suffered more abuse than OJ Simpson did during the 3 naked gun movies.

He had social media on his side, whilst the Tories managed to make enemies of both old and young people at the same time.

This was Mike Tyson in his peak squaring off against Stephen Hawkin.

And he still lost by 50 seats.
Sometimes I think the plan was for the Tories to mess up so badly that we'd have to witness labour stumble through the Brexit talks and have them come in post Brexit to save the day.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I'm also completely puzzled at the right wing groups on FB not grasping why this was a victory for Corbyn?

I'm sorry, did I miss the moment at which Corbyn became Prime Minister? At best, this is a stalemate.

The Tories won a Pyyhric Victory, whereas Corbyn won a...Laevinic Defeat? Basically, a costly victory VS a not very costly defeat.

This is the best interpretation of events I've read yet.

Clive in Hemel Hempstead on BBC Radio 5 Live wrote:
So the Conservatives won, but lost...
Labour lost, but won...
The SNP won and lost in Scotland
but still won
and the Conservatives won in Scotland
but lost...
UKIP lost but because of Brexit they've
already won...
the winner, Mrs May, is being told to resign
because she didn't win
and she won't
because she won
even though she lost...

So, in summary, it's safe to say, in my view, everyone on every side should get off of their high horses already.

I'd vote for Thatcher. If she weren't dead and I was of voting age. Now there was a real conservative party worthy of leading the country. Before she went a little overconfident in the end and thought she could do anything.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
I'd vote for Thatcher. If she weren't dead I was of voting age. Now there was a real conservative party worthy of leading the country. Before she went a little overconfident in the end and thought she could do anything.

Right now id probably consider Bojo over May.
She messed up hugely, she only in office still because they cannot get rid of her for a few months and need to keep things looking like they working.

Maybe not a full Thatcher. But the Tory party definitely needs to look back at previous times, leaders and such and carefully study what they need to learn from going forward.