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welshhoppo wrote: Still kind of odd considering they did better last week
As for the fire, shocking. But was the gov in charge of maintenance or was it the local council? Genuinely curious.
Yeah.. He won seats. In lib Dems terms he won.
Sure they lost some but ones like Clegg had baggage.
And yeah, shocking fire, they have seemed to pin point and are looking at the cladding added in a refit.
Insulation, cladding, may or may not be at highest grade fire spec...
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
Tim Farron stepping down doesn't sit easily with me either... It kinda feels like a success to bad media practices... And I'm not a fan of the implication that you can't be a practicing Christian and lead a liberal party. On the other hand how enthusiastic would I be for voting for the guy and party if I was queer.
Didn't Lib Dems reduce their proportion of the votes though? They got more seats down to voting patterns but actually lost 45,000 votes compared with 2015. They didn't pick up any of the UKIP deserters (not that that is in any way surprising). As a numbers excercise the Lib Dems continue to lose support. It would be interesting to know how many of those lost voters were due to tactical voting to support "any one but the Tories".
nfe wrote: Imagine you were the ex-housing minister and were now the chief of staff to a Prime Minister whose government rejected increased safety regulation and whose party controlled the council that ignored repeated complaints about the safety standards and refurbishment of a tower block whose upkeep was sold to a private firm and was involved in a catastrophic fire. That would be bad.
An action group for Grenfell Tower accused their landlords of been “evil, unprincipled” and like a “mini-mafia” before a fire ravished the building this morning.
More than 50 casualties have been taken to five hospitals following the inferno, London Ambulance Service chiefs have confirmed
A helicopter ambulance was among dozens of 999 crews scrambled to the scene, but ambulance were unable to confirm the severity of their injuries.
A Met Police spokesman said there have been a number of fatalities following the fire in North Kensington in the early hours this morning.
Questions will now be asked of the property’s management and whether the incident could have been prevented.
According to local blog, the Grenfell Action Group, residents of Grenfell Tower had “warned the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea who own this property and the Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation who supposedly manage all social housing in RBKC on the Council’s behalf” about fire safety issues eight times over the last three years on their blog.
“We have posted numerous warnings in recent years about the very poor fire safety standards at Grenfell Tower and elsewhere in RBKC,” they write, adding “all our warnings fell on deaf ears”.
One excerpt said that “only a catastrophic event will expose the ineptitude and incompetence of our landlord”…. “and bring an end to the dangerous living conditions and neglect of health and safety legislation that they inflict upon their tenants and leaseholders”.
A comment on another blog posted in 2015 warned: “Let’s hope we won’t have any serious fires on any of those estates because it appears that someone’s death is possibly the only thing that might stir the Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation out of its extreme complacency.”
The Labour Party proposed an amendment to the Government’s new Housing and Planning Bill – that would required private landlords to make their homes safe and “fit for human habitation” last year – but it was rejected by the Conservatives. According to Parliament’s register of interests, 72 of the MPs who voted against the amendment were themselves landlords who derive an income from a property.
Over 50 casualties have been taken to five local hospitals and the Metropolitan Police confirm fatalities.
A residents' action group in the west London tower block that was engulfed in flames on Wednesday morning had made repeated warnings about the standard of fire safety in the building and predicted that only a catastrophic event would expose how bad the problem had got.
The Grenfell Action Group used its blog on at least eight occasions in the last three years to say fire safety standards were inadequate in the 24-storey tower and that the building's landlord, the Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation (KCTMO), needed to do more.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
Compel wrote: Tim Farron stepping down doesn't sit easily with me either... It kinda feels like a success to bad media practices... And I'm not a fan of the implication that you can't be a practicing Christian and lead a liberal party. On the other hand how enthusiastic would I be for voting for the guy and party if I was queer.
Just because he may believe one thing personaly does not mean he is againste veryone else.
He is likely, to a certainty able to accept and not have any issues with different person who may live a different life style.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
As for the fire, shocking. But was the gov in charge of maintenance or was it the local council? Genuinely curious.
The local council owns the building but operations were handed over to a private firm several years ago (effectively the private company lease the building for want of a better word) but it's limited for use as social housing (i.e. just couldn't turn it into a load of penthouses).
The reports are that after the 2009 flats fire in London where people died, there was a plan to review the guidance on safety in flats and effectively what the minimum standard is. Tories got in and it kept on being deferred and still hasn't really got off the ground. The Tories policy is that it should be businesses that decide what is 'safe' and they need to report failings to the HSE. Of course that does lead to the situation that companies can cut corners in the assumption that the worst won't happen.
Problem for May is that the person that was responsible for reviewing fire safety on tower blocks was Gavin Barwell who spent four years putting it back and back. He is now Mays Chief of Staff after losing his seat. The previous minister Brandon Lewis on coroner reports that sprinklers should be retrofitted to all old high rises was reported to have said it wasn't the governments responsibility to legislate on this. Noting that the US do require this.
My assumption is that the cladding wasn't properly risk assessed and hence cheap, flammable material was used. No one assessed the chance that the outside of the building might catch fire, but it did. It was warm last night (especially in London) which means that windows would have been open. Updrafts from the fire would have taken burning debris into rooms and hence it spread rapidly.
I expect that someone will get a heavy fine/prison sentence for this.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Henry wrote: Didn't Lib Dems reduce their proportion of the votes though? They got more seats down to voting patterns but actually lost 45,000 votes compared with 2015. They didn't pick up any of the UKIP deserters (not that that is in any way surprising). As a numbers excercise the Lib Dems continue to lose support. It would be interesting to know how many of those lost voters were due to tactical voting to support "any one but the Tories".
You can put me in that category. I voted to stop May and that made the choice Labour. My heart is really with the LD/Greens but without a proportional representation it is a wasted vote.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/14 18:42:38
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
nfe wrote: Imagine you were the ex-housing minister and were now the chief of staff to a Prime Minister whose government rejected increased safety regulation and whose party controlled the council that ignored repeated complaints about the safety standards and refurbishment of a tower block whose upkeep was sold to a private firm and was involved in a catastrophic fire. That would be bad.
I hope heads roll. I fear they wont.
Probably just gonna end up with a slap on the wrist
For example the only group of people that voted for Tories was those that had retired. Those with lower education voted Tory.
There's a direct correlation between voting Remain and voting Labour (assume that this is to try and protect from hard Brexit).
Effectively May has no support other than those that have retired and have a lower education level (because education when they grew up was poor).
There's not much difference between Labour and Cons on wealth. Though if you take Left wing views then they easily out do Tory supporters.
Basically Tories don't speak for anyone other than (generally) the old uneducated part of the population that because they vote in greater numbers have a larger say.
Just more evidence for a move to PR really.
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
I don't buy the victim-playing. It's his own fault that he's incapable of dealing competently with questions, or simply responding honestly to them, not the fault of journalists for pressing a question someone keeps dodging.
If he doesn't think homosexual sex is a sin, he could have said that the first time he was asked instead of dodging it relentlessly for far too long.
His excuse for that is that he believes his religious views don't influence his politics. If that's the case, he shouldn't have told an evangelical magazine that he wished he could make abortion stop but that instead he'd have to try and use science to force legislation to prevent it. He probably should have voted for LGBTQ rights consistently, too, rather than up to the point where they came into conflict with people's religiously-motivated prejudices.
This has nothing to do with someone being persecuted for their religion (he's a white British protestant for goodness sake) and everything to do with being asked questions that pertain directly to his politics and to people's voting interests. Even if he voted against his own beliefs at all times, would you want to vote for someone who thought your nature was innately sinful? You might, but plenty wouldn't, and it's absurd to insist that denying them the opportunity to know is preferable.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/14 18:49:24
Suspect Farron was pressured to step down by his own party.
It'd be hard for the lib dems to criticse the DUP if they/people just point back at Farron and say " but you believe that too".
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
Looks like May made a good impression with the French yesterday. So time for caption competition...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/14 19:18:34
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Compel wrote: Tim Farron stepping down doesn't sit easily with me either... It kinda feels like a success to bad media practices... And I'm not a fan of the implication that you can't be a practicing Christian and lead a liberal party. On the other hand how enthusiastic would I be for voting for the guy and party if I was queer.
Just because he may believe one thing personaly does not mean he is againste veryone else.
He is likely, to a certainty able to accept and not have any issues with different person who may live a different life style.
I agree with you.
I don't have an issue with Farron being Christian and believing that being a homosexual is a sin. I have a problem with him voting on that principle. And he never has. I think it's important that MPs are allowed to have their own private faith beliefs providing they continue impartially to represent the interests of their electors, as Farron did.
There was far too much media "badgering" of individual leaders and candidates about petty points designed to trip them up in the coverage of this campaign. Except May, of course, who kept herself well away from any potentially unsympathetic interviewers.
There was far too much media "badgering" of individual leaders and candidates about petty points designed to trip them up in the coverage of this campaign. Except May, of course, who kept herself well away from any potentially unsympathetic interviewers.
I'm not sure May needed much tripping up, she was quite happy to do that herself...
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
It's one of the things that forms the core of my distrust for the man, especially given he's never chosen to explain it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/14 20:02:04
Mandorallen turned back toward the insolently sneering baron. 'My Lord,' The great knight said distantly, 'I find thy face apelike and thy form misshapen. Thy beard, moreover, is an offence against decency, resembling more closely the scabrous fur which doth decorate the hinder portion of a mongrel dog than a proper adornment for a human face. Is it possibly that thy mother, seized by some wild lechery, did dally at some time past with a randy goat?' - Mimbrate Knight Protector Mandorallen.
Excerpt from "Seeress of Kell", Book Five of The Malloreon series by David Eddings.
"You need not fear us, unless you are a dark heart, a vile one who preys on the innocent; I promise, you can’t hide forever in the empty darkness, for we will hunt you down like the animals you are, and pull you into the very bowels of hell." Iron - Within Temptation
nfe wrote: This has nothing to do with someone being persecuted for their religion (he's a white British protestant for goodness sake) and everything to do with being asked questions that pertain directly to his politics and to people's voting interests. Even if he voted against his own beliefs at all times, would you want to vote for someone who thought your nature was innately sinful? You might, but plenty wouldn't, and it's absurd to insist that denying them the opportunity to know is preferable.
One might also ask the same of Sadiq Khan with him being a Muslim after all...but they won't, because that would be racist. Right?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/14 23:24:24
nfe wrote: This has nothing to do with someone being persecuted for their religion (he's a white British protestant for goodness sake) and everything to do with being asked questions that pertain directly to his politics and to people's voting interests. Even if he voted against his own beliefs at all times, would you want to vote for someone who thought your nature was innately sinful? You might, but plenty wouldn't, and it's absurd to insist that denying them the opportunity to know is preferable.
One might also ask the same of Sadiq Khan with him being a Muslim after all...but they won't, because that would be racist. Right?
Erm... I thought Khan supported gay marriage?
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
nfe wrote: This has nothing to do with someone being persecuted for their religion (he's a white British protestant for goodness sake) and everything to do with being asked questions that pertain directly to his politics and to people's voting interests. Even if he voted against his own beliefs at all times, would you want to vote for someone who thought your nature was innately sinful? You might, but plenty wouldn't, and it's absurd to insist that denying them the opportunity to know is preferable.
One might also ask the same of Sadiq Khan with him being a Muslim after all...but they won't, because that would be racist. Right?
Erm... I thought Khan supported gay marriage?
Yes, but the point being discussed is whether people have a right to know an MP's personal religious beliefs on an issue.
My counter argument is...why are Muslim MP's not subjected to the same treatment?
(thats a rhetorical question by the way. We all know the answer).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Back on the subject of the London tower block fire, riot Police were deployed to protect firefighters against falling debris.
Spoiler:
Automatically Appended Next Post: For feths sake. Apparently £1 million was spent on the flammable exterior cladding to make the building look pretty, but an external fire escape was deemed "too expensive".
fething vile.
And of course, the usual empty platitudes are trotted out. "Lessons will be learned". No they won't, they weren't learned in 2009 when the previous incident of this sort occurred. The only way lessons will truly be learned is if people are criminally prosecuted and punished HARSHLY with significant prison sentences.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/06/15 00:44:12
nfe wrote: This has nothing to do with someone being persecuted for their religion (he's a white British protestant for goodness sake) and everything to do with being asked questions that pertain directly to his politics and to people's voting interests. Even if he voted against his own beliefs at all times, would you want to vote for someone who thought your nature was innately sinful? You might, but plenty wouldn't, and it's absurd to insist that denying them the opportunity to know is preferable.
One might also ask the same of Sadiq Khan with him being a Muslim after all...but they won't, because that would be racist. Right?
Not if he'd expressed extremely conservative, theologically motivated views previously. Farron wasn't attacked on the topic because he was Christian, he was attacked on it because he had expressed views on it before and his voting record demonstrates his commital to LGBTQ rights up to the point the conflict with freedom to religious prejudice (the key problem at the heart of liberalism: what to do when two freedoms cannot coexist in law).
If it was just because he was Christian, then there's a long list of MPs who are far more important who'd get the same treatment. Starting right at the first among equals.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/15 06:30:02
I feel like the only way "lessons will be learned" is when people get off their sympathetic sofas and take to the streets in protest to demand human rights and decent living standards. Its only when the voice of the people can't be ignored or silenced that the government will act to appease them. Otherwise they just keep getting away with it and we all keep letting them. The people have the power.
that only happened due to a fire where 11 people died.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
theCrowe wrote: I feel like the only way "lessons will be learned" is when people get off their sympathetic sofas and take to the streets in protest to demand human rights and decent living standards. Its only when the voice of the people can't be ignored or silenced that the government will act to appease them. Otherwise they just keep getting away with it and we all keep letting them. The people have the power.
There's a list doing the rounds of Tory MPs who defeated an amendment to the housing act to ensure properties are fit for human habitation, who also happen to be Landlords.
This has to be another nail in the coffin of the current incarnation of the Tory party. When such glaring self interest is displayed over the national interest, it's time for a clean out of the political pool.
At the very real risk of political opportunism, we need to keep the spotlight on this completely avoidable tragedy and ensure that Parliament moves swiftly to prevent it happening again. We need to learn to stop doing things on the cheap just because they're cheap. Shift back toward value over cost.
For anyone looking to, there's a genuine fundraising page here. This is one linked to on various national news sites, so seems about as legit as you can hope. Better than joining random ones off social media.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
theCrowe wrote: I feel like the only way "lessons will be learned" is when people get off their sympathetic sofas and take to the streets in protest to demand human rights and decent living standards. Its only when the voice of the people can't be ignored or silenced that the government will act to appease them. Otherwise they just keep getting away with it and we all keep letting them. The people have the power.
How about we do it like they do in China and let a few heads roll, literally?
China reported an estimated 300,000 victims in total.[1] Six babies died from kidney stones and other kidney damage and an estimated 54,000 babies were hospitalized.[2][3] The chemical gives the appearance of higher protein content when added to milk, leading to protein deficiency in the formula. In a separate incident four years prior, watered-down milk had resulted in 12 infant deaths from malnutrition.[4]
The scandal broke on 16 July 2008, after sixteen babies in Gansu Province were diagnosed with kidney stones.[cm 1] The babies were fed infant formula produced by Shijiazhuang-based Sanlu Group. After the initial focus on Sanlu—market leader in the budget segment—government inspections revealed the problem existed to a lesser degree in products from 21 other companies, including an Arla Foods-Mengniu joint venture company known as Arla Mengniu, Yili, and Yashili.[5]
The issue raised concerns about food safety and political corruption in China, and damaged the reputation of China's food exports. At least 11 countries stopped all imports of Chinese dairy products.
A number of criminal prosecutions were conducted by the Chinese government. Two people were executed, one given a suspended death penalty, three people receiving life imprisonment, two receiving 15-year jail terms,[6] and seven local government officials, as well as the Director of the Administration of Quality Supervision, Inspection and Quarantine (AQSIQ), being fired or forced to resign.[7]
The cladding used in the recent renovation of the Grenfell Tower in London, where a devastating fatal fire ripped through the building, is similar to the cladding that was used in a residential tower that went up in flames in Melbourne three years ago.
Who says they've learnt lessons? The same things happen over and over again, even when there's been fatalities, and nothing is ever done to rectify it, other than saying 'lessons have been learnt'.
EDIT: I think this what you're implying Shadow Captain but it's so important I felt the need to repeat it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/15 11:23:59
The cladding used in the recent renovation of the Grenfell Tower in London, where a devastating fatal fire ripped through the building, is similar to the cladding that was used in a residential tower that went up in flames in Melbourne three years ago.
Why the feth do people have to die, before politicians bother to "learn lessons"?
Worse news. Daily mail managed to identify 6-7 other projects done by same company. High rise. With.. Cladding. Old retrofits...
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
