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https://twitter.com/Liam_O_Hare/status/875292010609094656

Theresa May just visited #GrenfellTower but left after refusing to meet any residents. Appalling.

... classy as usual there.



..apparently due to "security concerns"

https://twitter.com/Liam_O_Hare/status/875313482412982273

For those asking, Jeremy Corbyn is currently visiting displaced Grenfell residents at St Clement Church.

meanwhile :
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-40286420






that moment when Adele and Jamie Oliver are more effective than the PM of your country.

Corbyn visited and a local resident told him to give the authorities hell.

I think he will oblige with great effect.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40293318?ocid=socialflow_twitter&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=twitter

Heroic public sector staff deserve more pay - Hunt

Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt has indicated he will press the chancellor to give public sector staff more pay.
He made the comments following a speech in which he praised the way NHS staff and the other emergency services responded to the recent terrorist attacks and the Grenfell Tower fire.
He said, in particular, he had "a great deal of sympathy" for the case made by nurses for an end to the pay cap.
The cap means public sector staff rises are limited to 1% a year until 2019........


....The union said a combination of pay freezes and caps has meant that nurses have had a 14% pay cut since 2010.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/24/mps-enjoy-1000-pay-risewhile-public-sector-workers-face-cap/

Feb 2017

MPs will be given a £1,049 pay rise from April which will see their salaries rise to £76,011 while public sector workers face a continued cap.

The Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority has announced that MPs pay will rise by 1.4 per cent, their second hike since the General Election.

... something something money tree...

If you're looking for the Magic Money Tree. I believe it's somewhere in the Tax Evasion Forest.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
What was that again about "learning lessons"?

The cladding used in the recent renovation of the Grenfell Tower in London, where a devastating fatal fire ripped through the building, is similar to the cladding that was used in a residential tower that went up in flames in Melbourne three years ago.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-15/cladding-on-grenfell-tower-similar-to-2014-melbourne-fire/8619522

Why the feth do people have to die, before politicians bother to "learn lessons"?

Apparently a lot of the money was spent on making the building look 'better'. This is an interesting read...
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/skylar-bakerjordan/grenfell-fire_b_17104044.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

The problem is that we have learnt from the mistakes from before but the government kept delaying any plans to review H&S guidelines (one might be slightly suspicious if 40% of the Tories are landlords). These Tories much prefer to hammer people when it goes wrong rather than put costs on businesses to try and prevent it in the first place (as this costs the businesses money). The problem with this approach is it will always end in a disaster because businesses will always try to push the limits to keep costs down. The real lesson won't actually be learnt, which is if you legislate properly you won't have to deal with these circumstances. Yes you can't protect from an asteroid knocking a building down, but there should be no reason in the UK for skyscraper buildings to become a raging inferno in less than half an hour.

Of course having people like this in government doesn't really help.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/grenfell-tower-fire-boris-johnson_uk_594267c2e4b0d31854872fed?ir=UK+Politics&utm_hp_ref=uk-politics


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 reds8n wrote:


Theresa May just visited #GrenfellTower but left after refusing to meet any residents. Appalling

... classy as usual there.


..apparently due to "security concerns"

I think we can agree that she had learnt absolute nothing from the election fiasco. Doesn't want to recognise the people she is meant to represent (compared to who she wants to represent which is the wealthy Tory party donors).

She's just afraid of the challenge. Now where's that chicken song.

The Fire Brigade used to be in legal charge of issuing fire safety certificates.

This was taken away in favour of a semi-voluntary system with lax enforcement, whereby the legal owner (the council) was enabled to hand off "responsibility" to a private company operating the building as an agent.

This clearly has resulted in this appalling and largely avoidable tragedy.

People are rightly very angry. The public inquiry needs to be completed this year, not simply kick the ball into the long grass as so often happens.

I hope Corbyn will keep pushing this in Parliament.

I hope the people of London keep pushing this in public! Corbyn can be the cheer leader but if the public arnt demonstrably behind him in a loud and demanding way all the arguments in parliament won't matter a jot and in the end will just get postponed til they figure out what the Brexit is going on.

TM has already proven time and again that nothing else matters, not the NHS, not education, not human rights. She can change the law on all of these things if it suits, especially if it gets in the way of Brexit. Special circumstances, Special powers or some such right wing jargon.

Seriously, I could hardly believe when she said that about human rights, never was her party agenda so plainly exposed for what it really is. Get in our way and we'll change the law so you can't. Londoners need to demonstrate now before their civil liberties are legislated out from under them.

I'm really serious. The same laws that might allow "suspected terrorists" to be arrested and detained without due course for indefinite periods of time will be used against anyone who stands up for their rights and gets in the way of this party's criminal greed. That's how it's always done, in the name of public safety and then its used for suppression.

That's not the British way. Our way is to start an inquiry that takes many years to reach a conclusion. In this case, though, there is serious and fully justified public anger based on the realistic suspicion that council tenants have been left to die in order to save money.

Apparently it would cost about £200-350 K to retro-fit a sprinkler system to a tower block like Grenfell. This would not necessarily prevent the building from burning down from exterior cladding fire, but it would greatly improve the chances of the people to get out safely. That sounds like a lot of money but it's actually only about the annual salary + benefits of a lot of council leaders.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
That's not the British way. Our way is to start an inquiry that takes many years to reach a conclusion. In this case, though, there is serious and fully justified public anger based on the realistic suspicion that council tenants have been left to die in order to save money.

Apparently it would cost about £200-350 K to retro-fit a sprinkler system to a tower block like Grenfell. This would not necessarily prevent the building from burning down from exterior cladding fire, but it would greatly improve the chances of the people to get out safely. That sounds like a lot of money but it's actually only about the annual salary + benefits of a lot of council leaders.

That's only about 2k per flat of a large block.
When your talking saving lives that's reasonable easily.

 jhe90 wrote:

That's only about 2k per flat of a large block.
When your talking saving lives that's reasonable easily.

Exactly. It's peanuts.

Any idea what the rent in a block like that is?

Good of Tobias Ellwood to tell everyone on Question Time that Theresa May refused to meet residents because they're security threats. Some laugh.

I've had a quick Google.

Rent was about 2k a month.


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/uk/817026/London-fire-Grenfell-Tower-Latimer-Road-flats-rent/amp

And you could buy one for about 250,000 pre renovation.

While it does seem crazy that building regs appear to permit the use of flammable cladding like this (apparently in the US its illegal to use in buildings over 4 stories)

its incorrect to say it was just used to make the block look better, it was also used to add external insulation (and improving thermal efficiency of their housing stock appears to have been a legal obligation on councils)

no excuse for using dangerous rubbish to do it though

nfe wrote:
Good of Tobias Ellwood to tell everyone on Question Time that Theresa May refused to meet residents because they're security threats. Some laugh.

Security wasn't a problem for Brenda and the Duke of Cambridge.

Queen and Prince William visit Grenfell Tower centre
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40298473

It turns out it would have cost about £138,000 to install sprinklers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40290158

There has never been a multiple loss of life from a fire developing in a building protected by a properly designed, installed and maintained fire sprinkler system.

I've a friend who works in the industry.

I've not got much out of her, mostly because I've not asked, but I know she's peeved at the Beeb for not getting a suitably qualified person to comment, instead choosing a litigation solicitor....who are of course well noted for their even handed and bipartisan approach to such things.

I also know she's shocked at the cladding that was used.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/16/sun-journalist-grenfell-tower-victim-hospital?CMP=share_btn_tw

King’s College hospital is to lodge a complaint with the press watchdog over a journalist who allegedly impersonated a friend of a victim of the Grenfell Tower fire in order to get an interview with him.

The hospital is to file a complaint with the Independent Press Standards Organisation (Ipso) about the behaviour of the Sun reporter. It has also written to News UK, the publisher of the Sun, Times and Sunday Times, about the incident.

“Following an incident at King’s College hospital, we have formally written to the Sun and will be informing the Independent Press Standards Organisation,” said a spokeswoman for King’s College hospital NHS foundation trust. “We are unable to comment on the specifics until our complaint has been investigated.”

It is understood that the Sun was trying to get an interview with Mario Gomes, a resident on the 21st floor who has been hailed as a hero after racing back into the building to find his 12-year-old daughter.

Sources say a Sun journalist has been accused of attempting to impersonate a friend of Gomes to hospital staff in order to interview him.

News UK claims a Sun journalist had lined up an interview with Gomes via mobile phone messages after being given his number by someone at Grenfell Tower who knew him.

A different Sun journalist, however, made the approach to staff at the hospital for the interview which Gomes then declined because the reporter allegedly claimed to be a friend. News UK denies the reporter attempted to impersonate a friend.

Ipso has not not yet received an official complaint relating to journalists impersonating friends of victims to gain access to any hospital.

Such a complaint would be investigated under clause 8 of the editors’ code, relating specifically to hospitals, which has two rules. It states: “Journalists must identify themselves and obtain permission from a responsible executive before entering non-public areas of hospitals or similar institutions to pursue inquiries.

classy as ever.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
While it does seem crazy that building regs appear to permit the use of flammable cladding like this (apparently in the US its illegal to use in buildings over 4 stories)

its incorrect to say it was just used to make the block look better, it was also used to add external insulation (and improving thermal efficiency of their housing stock appears to have been a legal obligation on councils)

no excuse for using dangerous rubbish to do it though

It was both, it clearly states that it was chosen to improve the buildings appearance as well as improve insulation in the planning application/permission.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-cladding-fire-cause-improve-kensington-block-flats-appearance-blaze-24-storey-west-a7789951.html

To quote

Due to its height the tower is visible from the adjacent Avondale Conservation Area to the south and the Ladbroke Conservation Area to the east

The changes to the existing tower will improve its appearance especially when viewed from the surrounding area.

to accord with the development plan by ensuring that the character and appearance of the area are preserved and living conditions of those living near the development suitably protected

and so on.

However there is nothing intrinsically illegal with using such cladding on the outside of the building as it was likely assessed that you would never get a fire close enough and hot enough to start the material burning. Despite the fact it's happened several times before. But this is a flaw in the guidance and legislation (which is why they are all stating they complied with the rules).

The Maybot's offer of £5 million for emergency supplies adds insult to injury.

Firstly, Londoners have already rallied around so well that the community organisers of the support effort have been turning people and donations away.

Secondly, the victims don't need £5M now, they need £200K in 2016 to install a sprinkler system and fire alarms. If that had been done we would not be looking at a death toll that clearly will climb to about 100.

Thirdly, the local council of Kensington and Chelsea has already organised a very good relief effort to reassure victims about how they will be taken care of and rehoused. Oh! Wait!! They haven't actually done anything!!!

Cue a near riot at the Town Hall as the mayor or "chief executive" refuses to come out and give the people answers to their righteous questions. I wonder how much he is paid?

Channel 4 News reports that people are marching on Westminster this evening.

I decided to take a break from politics for a few days after the election, but God almighty, May's interview with the BBC only confirms that May is one of the most wretched Prime Minister's this nation has ever had the misfortune of suffering!

She is a disgrace. Not fit to hold high office. May has learned nothing from the General Election debacle. She makes David Cameron look like Lloyd George.

The only consolation is that the Tories won't let May fight another General Election. Good riddance to her

Im a little late into the discussion again, but my thoughts on the dreadful fire are as follows:

Firstly it is truly shocking that building regs today don't make it a requirement to have a sprinkler system or roof water tank and corridor hoses in all habitable high rise buildings. So many lives would have been saved if there was a sprinkler system or water source and hoses set up that people could use, if the one staircase had lighting and if the building had a fire alarm on every corridor level. The signs were misguiding and it goes without saying the review after 2009 should have happened.

Secondly all building companies will look to use the cheapest product for maximum profit, technically they met the current standards but that would be the minimum standard. I think more of the cause would be the stupid building facelift in itself. Those old tower blocks would have been better to be demolished and rebuild rather than by covering up the cracks with a modern-to-be-out-if-date fake outer skin which may have proven the fatal blow in the fire.

I will of course wait until the report is out before making a proper judgement, but I think we will see a panic assessment of all similar buildings and rather ironically removal of cladding and such from them. Councils will also be forced to add in addition fire safety precautions, whether that means a water system in each building or getting away with just making everything more fire proof I don't know. I think part of the reason the review was put on hold is down to not hindering the building trade to build as many new buildings as possible.

Now on to PM May, I think the security scare was an excuse for not visiting residents, more likely it was so she wouldn't get heckled and attacked by angry residents who are ironically upset she ignored them. On the other hand so much has already been done was it necessary? Does a countries leader have to have a PR stunt to hug someone in solidarity for good image? Certainly Corbyn thinks so, but it does come across a little cheesy to me.

Finally, I guess no one in building regs ever watched Towering Inferno with Steve Mcqueen? In the film a good 40 odd years ago a similar tower block caught fire very quickly. It didn't have sprinklers but did have I am surprised our buildings today don't have this or something similar retrofitted as regulation.

Onto another political topic, only 3 more days to go, until hopefully the Brexit negotiations steamroller ahead! Unfortunately I listened to the Jeremy Vile show on BBC radio 2 today, and his latest argument was to urge listeners to give up on Brexit because it was going to take to long and now Mrs May no longer has a majority it will be a bad Brexit scenario etc. What droning dribble! Some people (especially in the media) are so concerned with proving themselves right they want Brexit to fail. I for one want to see nothing stopping the process and for a fair and strong negotiation to come out.

I actually started to feel a bit sorry for May at one point, then I remembered the lies, vitriol and hate the right wing press attack dogs pour out on her behalf, and suddenly I'm OK with her being called names.

I really cannot believe that people actually thought she was the reincarnation of Thatcher.

 r_squared wrote:
I actually started to feel a bit sorry for May at one point, then I remembered the lies, vitriol and hate the right wing press attack dogs pour out on her behalf, and suddenly I'm OK with her being called names.

I really cannot believe that people actually thought she was the reincarnation of Thatcher.

Superficial physical similarities?

 Sentinel1 wrote:

Finally, I guess no one in building regs ever watched Towering Inferno with Steve Mcqueen? In the film a good 40 odd years ago a similar tower block caught fire very quickly. It didn't have sprinklers but did have

Spoiler:

a roof top water tank that they opened up. Gravity caused the water to flood down the floors and douse the fire saving all the people.

I am surprised our buildings today don't have this or something similar retrofitted as regulation.

Ehm. I don't know how to say this, but 40-year-old movies is probably not the place to look for efficient fire-fighting tech.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Sentinel1 wrote:

Finally, I guess no one in building regs ever watched Towering Inferno with Steve Mcqueen? In the film a good 40 odd years ago a similar tower block caught fire very quickly. It didn't have sprinklers but did have

Spoiler:

a roof top water tank that they opened up. Gravity caused the water to flood down the floors and douse the fire saving all the people.

I am surprised our buildings today don't have this or something similar retrofitted as regulation.

Ehm. I don't know how to say this, but 40-year-old movies is probably not the place to look for efficient fire-fighting tech.

The hell you say. Next you'll be telling me a laser swords and hokey religions are no match for a good blaster.

Folks I know little about London politics, but it's abundantly clear that London has deep deep problems. Problems that exist all over but are massively exaggerated in London.
NI has its issues but I will take them any day over Londons issues. I'm no socialist but 2k a month for a small high rise flat? Houses for sale in the 10s of millions. It's obscene.
The more I look at the current mess in UK politics the more it looks like inequality in London is the main issue. It's just not sustainable.

It's like San Diego putting up thousands of million dollar tract houses...surrounded by chaparral shrubland that goes up in flames and burns a hundred thousand acres once or twice a decade like clockwork

 feeder wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
I actually started to feel a bit sorry for May at one point, then I remembered the lies, vitriol and hate the right wing press attack dogs pour out on her behalf, and suddenly I'm OK with her being called names.

I really cannot believe that people actually thought she was the reincarnation of Thatcher.

Superficial physical similarities?

Well theres the hair...and...and...I got nothing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I decided to take a break from politics for a few days after the election, but God almighty, May's interview with the BBC only confirms that May is one of the most wretched Prime Minister's this nation has ever had the misfortune of suffering!

She is a disgrace. Not fit to hold high office. May has learned nothing from the General Election debacle. She makes David Cameron look like Lloyd George.

The only consolation is that the Tories won't let May fight another General Election. Good riddance to her

I wouldn't say thats a consolation. It means we're stuck with the b****.

 Knockagh wrote:
Folks I know little about London politics, but it's abundantly clear that London has deep deep problems. Problems that exist all over but are massively exaggerated in London.
NI has its issues but I will take them any day over Londons issues. I'm no socialist but 2k a month for a small high rise flat? Houses for sale in the 10s of millions. It's obscene.
The more I look at the current mess in UK politics the more it looks like inequality in London is the main issue. It's just not sustainable.

One way is over crowding, several families or large extended family to a flat, to spread the cost. It doesn't matter as long as they work cheap so Costa doesn't get too expensive. Think it's not true? The authorities haven't divulged the population of the building, there could be many many more deaths yet.

 Knockagh wrote:
Folks I know little about London politics, but it's abundantly clear that London has deep deep problems. Problems that exist all over but are massively exaggerated in London.
NI has its issues but I will take them any day over Londons issues. I'm no socialist but 2k a month for a small high rise flat? Houses for sale in the 10s of millions. It's obscene.
The more I look at the current mess in UK politics the more it looks like inequality in London is the main issue. It's just not sustainable.

2k a Month.. For 2 beds, n a old tower block.

Out in the shires North you can get a 3-4 bed house for maybe 700 a month.

2 grand would get you a rather nice property

 jhe90 wrote:

 Knockagh wrote:
Folks I know little about London politics, but it's abundantly clear that London has deep deep problems. Problems that exist all over but are massively exaggerated in London.
NI has its issues but I will take them any day over Londons issues. I'm no socialist but 2k a month for a small high rise flat? Houses for sale in the 10s of millions. It's obscene.
The more I look at the current mess in UK politics the more it looks like inequality in London is the main issue. It's just not sustainable.

2k a Month.. For 2 beds, n a old tower block.

Out in the shires North you can get a 3-4 bed house for maybe 700 a month.

2 grand would get you a rather nice property

.and for the wages many of these people work for, they could be significantly better off if they got a similar job outside of the South, but many fear taking that step, or just think there's no jobs and everywhere else is some sort of backwater wasteland.
I watched a documentary about the housing issue in London, and the real fear was apparent on the faces of those being told they were being housed outside the capital. One family were rehomed in High-Wycombe, not a bad place to live as it happens, and they fought and cried as if they were being condemned to a circle of hell. The father only had a part time job in a convenience store in London, and he was concerned he'd have to commute in! Never occurred that he could pick up an equally gak job just as easy in High-Wycombe.