Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I see the Tories have decided to launch operation insanity by pledging more money for help to buy...

A property bubble is the last thing we need, and a shameless bribe for votes sees the national debt go up even more

There is some analysis to suggest that all it does is increase house prices. That's not really helpful for younger people. I'm also not sue that the offer on tuition fees is really going to persuade many young people to vote for them.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/help-to-buy-scheme-is-inflating-house-prices-10124042.html

Effectively you are just increasing the debt of first time buyers to increases the value of builders today. I'd be extremely wary of buying an over inflated house (when you are already paying a premium for new builds) that would effectively saddle you with more debt at a time when public debt is increasing massively again and my suspicion is that we will eventually hit another housing crash when house prices over inflate.

What the government really needs to do is have government/council building plan where they bring forward developments at lower prices to act as real competition for the housing market.

Saying the already vast fees, that generations before didn't have to pay, won't go up again is just the sort of 'offer' we've come to expect form the government.

Remember to translate Tory to English....

'We can't' means 'we won't'

Unless it has the suffix 'afford it', when it reads 'you don't deserve it, plebs'

Look at how she promoted the freeze on tuition and that. Offering a 'fairer' deal. Not an actually fair deal.

See, this is why Corbyn continues to gather pace.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

nfe wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
The Labour party have 1970s solutions to 1970s problems, which is all very well and good...except it's 2017

Spoiler:

To anyone who keeps up to date with political, social, andd economic theory, they have extremely up-to-date solutions to very modern problems - they're the only major party in UK politics (both the English and Welsh Greens and Scottish Greens are onto it as well) who've even used phrases like internet of things or smart factories, never mind acknowledged that we need to coompletely reform our economies before everyone gets replaced by machines, whilst everyone else is wandering about thinking petrol cars are at the forefront of technology and economic systems from the 1900s are here forever. Hell, the Tories and Lib Dems slaughtered Corbyn when he mentioned the internet of things on the basis that he was using meaningless buzzwords - but it's Labour that are out of date?

It may surprise some people to know that when I was a lad

I was quite into the Labour party. That was when Neil Kinnock was leader. Corbyn reminds me a lot of him: speaks well, can fire up a crowd, but ultimately falls flat at the end.

Eh, ok? Doesn't really seem like a response to the argument. A shame, because the idea that Labour are only pedalling 1970s solutions to 1970s problems is a common position taken and is worth discussing - tackling why people think that would probably shift a lot of vvoters one way or the other.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Shouldn't you have, you know, had that plan, or at least an embryo of it, BEFORE taking the plunge?

I am not, and have never been, an elected official.

I pay my taxes, obey the laws of the land, and fulfil my civic duty by voting at every election and attending court whenever I have been requested to sit on a jury.

I have fulfilled my part of the social contract between citizen and government.

There's nothing more I can do.

But then you voted whilst being aware that the incumbent party was incapable of making a good job of it.
I do agree the implementation of Brexit so far has been a shambles, but yo be honest I'm nt sure what else you were expecting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Yeah, it's a sorry state of affairs, reds8n.

We're getting to the stage that not only will Trump outlast May, but also to the stage that in comparion to May, Trump looks stable and statesman like

Who could have predicted that? Not I.

As much as I despise Bojo, and God knows I loathe him, I would welcome his appointment as PM for two reasons:

1.He supports Brexit.

2. The huge boost to the Scottish independence campaign that Bojo as PM would provide.

Yeah, the country might go down the pan, but I'm playing the long game here

I find it more than a little concerning that you'd be happy with prime minister Johnson just because he supports Brexit, and you're happy to let the country go down the pan to do so.

Is there any red line for you where you'd decide brexit was a bad idea? Would we need to revert to rolling brown outs and rationed chocolate before you agree it was a failure?

As one half of a couple that casually Chung along on the minimum wage line, Help to Buy houses are still too expensive, and even then they are quite shoddy too. I haven't heard many good things about their construction.

 welshhoppo wrote:
As one half of a couple that casually Chung along on the minimum wage line, Help to Buy houses are still too expensive, and even then they are quite shoddy too. I haven't heard many good things about their construction.

I'm guessing you are referring to affordable houseing rather than Help to Buy?

The biggest issue with all housing in the UK is the cost of the land rather than the building. It's a stupid situation that is entirely a construct of our planning laws and protectionism of the baby boomers and right wing media.

 Steve steveson wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
As one half of a couple that casually Chung along on the minimum wage line, Help to Buy houses are still too expensive, and even then they are quite shoddy too. I haven't heard many good things about their construction.

I'm guessing you are referring to affordable houseing rather than Help to Buy?

The biggest issue with all housing in the UK is the cost of the land rather than the building. It's a stupid situation that is entirely a construct of our planning laws and protectionism of the baby boomers and right wing media.

It's a bit of both.

There are too many investors around buying up all the cheap houses that normally end up going to first time buyers. They then do these up and knock the things out of our price range.

I could wait around until my parents die I suppose, what's another 20 odd years?

Herzlos wrote:
I find it more than a little concerning that you'd be happy with prime minister Johnson just because he supports Brexit, and you're happy to let the country go down the pan to do so.

Is there any red line for you where you'd decide brexit was a bad idea? Would we need to revert to rolling brown outs and rationed chocolate before you agree it was a failure?

While I have no particular gripe with your opinion, it is at this present moment in time an opinion.

You don't know that Brexit is going to be a failure, you don't know that we're going back to the 70s with brownouts and rationing, so quite acting as if its the inevitable result despite everything that's going on.

Now that's not to say that Brexit is going to be a resounding success and everything's going to be nice and shiny.

I think that in light of recent developments we should all consider the fact that we got to make that decision and can all sit here and discuss it without an appointment at the local A&E (where there is one...)

Cheers

Andrew

We don't know a great deal about what brexit will be at all.
I'm not saying it'll actually take us back to brown outs, though I think it'll certainly be bad.
I'm just curious as to how bad brexiteers are will for it to get for brexit to be justified.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


After Juncker and Macron's speeches, and the crackpot plans they have for the EU's future, I'm amazed anybody would want to remain in the EU.

Except anyone who actually read the books and listened to speeches so they knew where the whole thing was heading?

Herzlos wrote:
We don't know a great deal about what brexit will be at all.
I'm not saying it'll actually take us back to brown outs, though I think it'll certainly be bad.
I'm just curious as to how bad brexiteers are will for it to get for brexit to be justified.

Firstly, I can only speak for myself. I do not think that Brexit is ever going to unjustified. Now, before saying about how its going to affect others, I have young children who will need to be supported and educated and housed and employed in the future. I know that employment and travel will be one of those areas hit in the early stages. But I am optomistic for the future. I think that the EU is in the process of fracturing and getting out now is vital.

Whatever good intent was there at the beginning is long gone and only a husk remains that in the words of the late Carrie Fisher "The more you tighten your grip the more systems will slip through your fingers"

Scottish Independence, Brexit and now Catalan all show that the EU is not prepared to lose any of their aquired power over others.

Cheers

Andrew

I have similar reservations. Now I'm not entirely against the idea of Brexit, but I'm absolutely against the idea of a Brexit without a plan, executed by incompetents.

I can only see it as being justified if we're better off afterwards - bigger economy, less debt, less underemployment. I.e. change for a benefit.

What I'm seeing a lot of though, is people like DINLT who seem happy for seemingly anything to happen as long as he gets his Brexit. I mean, he's acknowledged Boris Johnson would be an awful Prime Minister, but is happy with him getting the job because he supports Brexit. I'm just trying to establish if there's a point where he's no longer happy to pay to get his Brexit, or if he's all for it at literally any cost. More generally, polls have shown that a large number of brexiteers are willing for family members to lose jobs in order to get Brexit.

I'm not picking on you directly, DINLT, but I can never get an answer from this from anyone when I'm discussing it elsewhere, and whilst I don't agree with your stance, I respect your right to have it and the way you're happy to discuss.

Herzlos wrote:

I can only see it as being justified if we're better off afterwards - bigger economy, less debt, less underemployment. I.e. change for a benefit.

The problem is how you quantify the intangible benefits (for example, the constant buck-passing to Brussels and back)/harms (collaboration on various things) and the timescale involved (do we have to be financially better off immediately? Or in five years? Or ten?) and how you'd compare that as against a Britain that had hypothetically stayed within Europe on the same timescale. Ultimately, it's kind of impossible to do.

At the end of the day, nations are resilient things for the most part, and Britain moreso than most out there. Deals can always be renegotiated, alternative links forged, and public memory is short. It is likely nobody will care by 2025 let alone 2040, when we'll all still be sitting here on Dakka complaining about the fact plastic SOB still haven't arrived.

That is of course a big problem that's not possible to satisfactorily answer.

I guess for most you can boil it down to quality of life after a reasonable transition. How do people feel their quality of life (freedoms, security, comfort/wealth) has changed in the 5 years since we leave, compared to the same changes in the Eurozone.

Or we can look at the economic numbers; GDP, tax revenue, inflation, since we can at least compare them directly with UK and EU27.

I think most of us can accept a bit of teething pain, but I'd assume most of us would be expecting things to be looking up by the time we hit the 5 year mark.

All it takes is another global recession though, and your data is thrown completely out of whack. Or a totally incompetent UK government for that period where a better one might not have made the same mistakes. Not to mention the difficulties in comparing against our hypothetical nation that stayed within the EU, as we have no idea if events really would have been better, the same, or worse.

For me? The concept that the EU is a guarantor of any kind of human rights beyond those granted by national government was flushed away yesterday when people who dared to stand within 100 metres of a polling booth got their heads cracked in and the EU said nothing. And economics are a rollercoaster that goes up and down all the time anway. Bust and boom is a regular occurrence in our economy.

I suspect the real outcome of Brexit will be 'Minor pain for half a decade followed by a readjustment, and then nobody cares anymore'. Which, to be honest, I'd be satisfied with.

Yeah, there are certainly other events that may skew it, but there will still be a perception about how well it's gone.

How well we handled the next global recession Vs EU27, whether we'd have that recession without Brexit, whether Joe Bloggs would still have a job without Brexit, and so on.

I doubt we'll agree on whether or not it is a success, but I'm sure everyone will have their own metric. I've stated mine, and I'm curious as to what the other side are using as a success metric.

I'm certainly not impressed that the EU has been silent about Catalonia, but it takes them a while to react to anything so we'll see what happens. I don't yet see it as a reason to leave over.

 Ketara wrote:
All it takes is another global recession though, and your data is thrown completely out of whack. Or a totally incompetent UK government for that period where a better one might not have made the same mistakes. Not to mention the difficulties in comparing against our hypothetical nation that stayed within the EU, as we have no idea if events really would have been better, the same, or worse.

For me? The concept that the EU is a guarantor of any kind of human rights beyond those granted by national government was flushed away yesterday when people who dared to stand within 100 metres of a polling booth got their heads cracked in and the EU said nothing.

According to Die Welt Rajoy got an earful from none other than Frau Merkel.

The Commission was more diplomatic:

"We call on all relevant players to now move very swiftly from confrontation to dialogue. Violence can never be an instrument in politics. We trust the leadership of Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy to manage this difficult process in full respect of the Spanish Constitution and of the fundamental rights of citizens enshrined therein."

jouso wrote:

According to Die Welt Rajoy got an earful from none other than Frau Merkel.

The Commission was more diplomatic:

"We call on all relevant players to now move very swiftly from confrontation to dialogue. Violence can never be an instrument in politics. We trust the leadership of Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy to manage this difficult process in full respect of the Spanish Constitution and of the fundamental rights of citizens enshrined therein."

I'm sure all those battered old ladies will sleep better at night knowing that the German Premier dared to be slightly terse with the man responsible. If he orders the killing of a few thousand, will the EU Commission send him to bed without supper?

No, the EU's been very clearly shown to be a bunch of hypocritical fethheads more interested in their own political mongering than their human rights policies. Not that our Government isn't the same, but it certainly punches a hole in any arguments that leaving the EU is making Britain vulnerable to human right abuses by our own government. It turns out your government can literally send the police out by the thousands to kick the crap out of you and the EU doesn't give a damn if it doesn't suit them.

 Ketara wrote:

jouso wrote:

According to Die Welt Rajoy got an earful from none other than Frau Merkel.

The Commission was more diplomatic:

"We call on all relevant players to now move very swiftly from confrontation to dialogue. Violence can never be an instrument in politics. We trust the leadership of Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy to manage this difficult process in full respect of the Spanish Constitution and of the fundamental rights of citizens enshrined therein."

I'm sure all those battered old ladies will sleep better at night knowing that the German Premier dared to be slightly terse with the man responsible. If he orders the killing of a few thousand, will the EU Commission send him to bed without supper?

No, the EU's been very clearly shown to be a bunch of hypocritical fethheads more interested in their own political mongering than their human rights policies. Not that our Government isn't the same, but it certainly punches a hole in any arguments that leaving the EU is making Britain vulnerable to human right abuses by our own government. It turns out your government can literally send the police out by the thousands to kick the crap out of you and the EU doesn't give a damn if it doesn't suit them.

What would you expect the EU to do?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AndrewC wrote:
...Scottish Independence, Brexit and now Catalan all show that the EU is not prepared to lose any of their aquired power over others...

In what way? Scottish independence, Brexit and Catalan are all different events, and were approached differently by the EU as I remember?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
...Yeah, the country might go down the pan, but I'm playing the long game here

If it wasn't for the smiley, I'd almost think you're being serious. But based on your past posts, perhaps you are and you are willing to effectively tear up the country to suit your ideology. Nationalists, generally are prepared to destroy other countries for their nation, not their own. It kind of defeats the point.

I'd at least expect the EU to tell Spain off for sending the police after its own citizens. Seeing as they claim to be the defender of human rights and thus is probably in breach of a few articles.


And seeing as sone people had this notion that us leaving the EU would cause the Tories to strip our human rights away.

Yeah I'm not sure what the EU could have done here. Send in the task force and risk being mistaken for an invasion? Phoned Spain to demand it's stopped?

The EU will, I'm sure, deal with the Spanish human rights abuses but it'll take more than 36 hours.
It's not as if the Spanish government could have done much beyond sending in the army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 welshhoppo wrote:
I'd at least expect the EU to tell Spain off for sending the police after its own citizens. Seeing as they claim to be the defender of human rights and thus is probably in breach of a few articles.

They still can do. The Spanish citizens can also take the police and government to the ECJ to get it dealt with.

Give the EU some time to so something about it before condemning them for inaction.

And seeing as sone people had this notion that us leaving the EU would cause the Tories to strip our human rights away.

And they seem to be. It's not invalidated by this. But if it happens in the UK once we leave we won't have the EU or ECJ to fall back on.

 Ketara wrote:

jouso wrote:

According to Die Welt Rajoy got an earful from none other than Frau Merkel.

The Commission was more diplomatic:

"We call on all relevant players to now move very swiftly from confrontation to dialogue. Violence can never be an instrument in politics. We trust the leadership of Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy to manage this difficult process in full respect of the Spanish Constitution and of the fundamental rights of citizens enshrined therein."

I'm sure all those battered old ladies will sleep better at night knowing that the German Premier dared to be slightly terse with the man responsible. If he orders the killing of a few thousand, will the EU Commission send him to bed without supper?

No, the EU's been very clearly shown to be a bunch of hypocritical fethheads more interested in their own political mongering than their human rights policies. Not that our Government isn't the same, but it certainly punches a hole in any arguments that leaving the EU is making Britain vulnerable to human right abuses by our own government. It turns out your government can literally send the police out by the thousands to kick the crap out of you and the EU doesn't give a damn if it doesn't suit them.

I'm not really sure what people are expecting the EU to do. They've put out a public statement condemning the violence (and that in itself is a political as doing things in the public light is making a strong point). Also we've had several EU MEPs coming out and saying similar things.

On the other hand we haven't heard anything from TM as far as I am aware. Even if there are consequences for Spain (and there probably will be) it's not going to happen overnight and is more likely to be in the form of political/economic pressure to ensure the rights of its populace. What Spain stupidly did was try and prevent the vote through violence (despite being against Catalan's own constitution); what they have managed to do is show a proportion of its population how little it cares and that will result in an inevitable backlash.

 r_squared wrote:


What would you expect the EU to do?

At the very least, have issued a statement along the lines of what Nicola Sturgeon said (which was exceedingly tame itself). Sturgeon has her own game to play with regards to independence shennanigans, but what we saw yesterday could have been copied right out of Franco's playbook. The European statement was the most wishy washy not taking sides load of baloney I've heard in a while. Juncker appears to be very quick off the mark to leak a conversation slagging off the Brexit negotiationing team within 24 hours of meeting them, but when it comes to hundreds of people getting their head kicked in? It appears you can't hear anything for the silence. Where's the joint statement by the EU commission? The public protests by EU champions Merkel and Macron? Where's the leaked conversation from Juncker's office where he decrys the violence and barbarism being endorsed by the Spanish Government?

Where, in short, are all these principles that the European project supposedly upholds? Because from where I'm sitting? When the EU elite has stronger words for the British negotiating team sitting opposite them than the Prime Minister who is quite -literally- ordering and justifying police to illegally bludgeon people's heads in? It puts the lie to the entire European project as being any better than any Tory government. They care about the Realpolitik, and nothing else.

As I said before, I know our government is no better. I'm disgusted by our premier's lack of spine on the matter. But I'm pointing out now that never again can someone claim that by leaving Europe we're being abandoned from the protection of the benign caring EU to the clutches of the evil Tories. Because as we have just seen, a European government can quite literally kick the crap out of their citizens and the EU elite won't say a thing if it doesn't suit them to do so.

 welshhoppo wrote:


And seeing as sone people had this notion that us leaving the EU would cause the Tories to strip our human rights away.

No that comes from the statement/actions the Tories have previously put forward. Such as removing the primacy of the UK courts and allowing UK Parliament over ride any judgement,

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/03/tories-plan-uk-withdrawal-european-convention-on-human-rights

or allowing UK authorities access to your personal internet data regardless of whether they think you are up to no good (and without court judgements)...those sort of things


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ketara wrote:


As I said before, I know our government is no better. I'm disgusted by our premier's lack of spine on the matter. But I'm pointing out now that never again can someone claim that by leaving Europe we're being abandoned from the protection of the benign caring EU to the clutches of the evil Tories. Because as we have just seen, a European government can quite literally kick the crap out of their citizens and the EU elite won't say a thing if it doesn't suit them to do so.

I'm not entirely sure what you are expecting here. They have put out a statement condemning the violence, individuals MEPs have spoken out (which like out UK government is way of leaking a response 'informally'). The EU is not an individual countries police, it is not going to send people in to sort it out or start meddling with what in some ways is an internal affair (otherwise they get accused of federalising). What is important will be the consequences from Spain's actions and how the EU deal with it internally. They are not making public statements because it is not in there interest to do so (whereas with Wrexit it is). This is no different from any other political organisation. There is no doubt that what happened in Spain is unacceptable, but to criticise the EU, when we do not have the full response internally and externally, is being a bit quick of the mark as evidence of the evil EU not upholding its own values.

 Whirlwind wrote:

I'm not entirely sure what you are expecting here.

A statement that boils down to 'We unilaterally reject the Spanish Government's use of force to resolve internal political problems instead of diplomacy' would be nice. Or as mentioned, a 'leaked' article from Juncker's desk decrying the barbarism inherent in deploying police to smash in people's heads? Or, again as said, a public joint protestation from Macron & Merkel in favour of democracy? I mean, come on, seriously? Me posting on the internet here is about as much as the EU has done on the matter.

Which is in line with what I thought was the case, in all honesty. It's one of the reasons I voted to leave. But I take absolutely no joy in seeing it proved like this, and I've already written to my MP asking him to make a public statement. Won't happen (he's a Tory who fancies himself leader in twenty years), but in that, it would appear that he demonstrates the same actual values as the EU does.

The fundamental problem the Tories face is that free market economics have not made everyone better off.

There are vast swathes of people who haven't benefitted at all from the system. It is also obvious that austerity has been chipping away at public services like the NHS, social care and the roads (potholes, etc.)

Meanwhile the rich, who don't need to worry about healthcare and so on, have kept on getting richer.

Given this clear failure of conventional modern liberal regulation of the free market and redistribution of wealth, May's position is full of contradictions while Corbyn's position makes complete sense.

I thought the EU was supposed to stay out of sovereign countries and respect their sovereignty?

 r_squared wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
...Scottish Independence, Brexit and now Catalan all show that the EU is not prepared to lose any of their aquired power over others...

In what way? Scottish independence, Brexit and Catalan are all different events, and were approached differently by the EU as I remember?

Scottish Independence was greeted from the EU with dire warnings of being at the back of the queue and not being able to get back in. In effect telling us that we should remain with the Union to stay within the EU.

Brexit is a contentious one. But with us constantly being stonewalled at the talks (Lets be fair here talks are going nowhere). The EU negotiation team and the EU President talking at cross purposes. The talk at which the lead EU Negotiator saw his position as to teach the UK the ramifications of leaving. Again, in effect telling us that we should remain within the EU.

And now Catalan in which a member state of the EU uses a level of force that I would expect of a tyrant against unresisting public wanting to exercise their right to freedom of expression of their opinion is met with silence from the EU because the action keeps an area of Spain in the EU.

Seems pretty clear to me. The EU does not want any present members of the EU to leave because they want control and power.

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:

 r_squared wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
...Scottish Independence, Brexit and now Catalan all show that the EU is not prepared to lose any of their aquired power over others...

In what way? Scottish independence, Brexit and Catalan are all different events, and were approached differently by the EU as I remember?

Scottish Independence was greeted from the EU with dire warnings of being at the back of the queue and not being able to get back in. In effect telling us that we should remain with the Union to stay within the EU.

That's what the unionist spokespeople and the bulk of the media told everyone the EU was saying. No official statements were every made by the EU. The opinions given by EU commissioners, lawyers, and negotiators were pretty mixed and ranged from 'you'll get straight in' to 'back of the queue' via 'a new entrant but with accelerated access'.