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Kilkrazy wrote: Not you, then, but a lot of Brexiteers want to get out immediately, whatever the consequences.
Considering how incompetent the Tories are right now, Brexiting ASAP is looking like the sensible option at this moment.
The Tories are that incompetent, they'd probably end up giving Hadrian's wall back to the Italians.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
"Our current government is utterly incompetent. This is the perfect opportunity to completely change our trade interactions with the entire world!"
There's a thread here in the off-topic forum discussing some way of nominating the most preposterous statements of the year and have them compete to be crowned the Most Preposterous. I'd like to make a nomination...
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Kilkrazy wrote: Not you, then, but a lot of Brexiteers want to get out immediately, whatever the consequences.
Considering how incompetent the Tories are right now, Brexiting ASAP is looking like the sensible option at this moment.
How the gak do you come to that conclusion?
Considering how incompetetnt the Tories are right now, you want them as far away as possible as something like Brexit. Whether that's handing over to Corbyn to do it now, or kicking it 5 years down the road, it's going to be better than letting these guys loose on our economy.
But I still feel we're so much better off in it, than next to it. That way we can try to reform it and benefit from membership.
Thats a delusion. There is only one direction in which the EU can ever and will ever reform, and that is "Ever closer union". For anyone who opposes further integration and blurring of national boundaries and sovereignty, the only long term solution is withdrawal.
It'll go in the direction the member nations want. Some of them (all?) have veto abilities and things are voted on. It's delusional to think that the EU is going towards "ever closer union" against the will of all 28 member states. The presidents talk about "ever closer union" in their plans, but they need to get parliamentary approval, they aren't dictators.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/05 14:23:31
The UK agreed with the EU the terms under which the EU quotas would be split between the EU-27 and the UK but:
In a fast-developing second trade spat, Washington has teamed up with Brazil, Argentina, Canada, New Zealand, Uruguay and Thailand to reject Britain’s proposed import arrangements for crucial agricultural goods such as meat, sugar and grains after Brexit. The fact that the U.K.’s opponents include the U.S., Canada and New Zealand is a significant setback because Britain is trying to style its former colonies as natural strategic and commercial allies after it has quit the EU.
ERLIN (Reuters) - German firms with a presence in Britain should make provisions now for a “very hard Brexit”, Germany’s biggest industry group said on Thursday, because the government in London does not know what it wants.
The Federation of German Industries (BDI) accused British Prime Minister Theresa May’s government of lacking a clear strategy on how to exit the European Union after last year’s referendum.
“After four rounds of negotiations, German industry looks with concern at the progress of the Brexit negotiations,” BDI Managing Director Joachim Lang told reporters in Berlin. “The British government is lacking a clear concept despite talking a lot.”
The annual conference of May’s Conservatives showed her party remained deeply divided over Brexit and that a lack of strategy was complicating the negotiations with the EU about Britain’s divorce talks, Lang said.
“German companies with a presence in Britain and Northern Ireland must now make provisions for the serious case of a very hard exit. Anything else would be naive.”
A so-called hard Brexit means no agreement with the EU and Britain falling back on World Trade Organization rules rather than being in a tariff-free single market and customs union with the bloc.
Britain is Germany’s third most important single export destination and its fifth biggest overall trading partner.
The industry group confirmed that it had set up a task force, including major companies, to prepare for a disruptive British departure from the EU.
Sources told Reuters in September that big players such as Airbus (AIR.PA), Siemens (SIEGn.DE) and Deutsche Bank (DBKGn.DE) were taking part.
“The aim of the task force is to identify potential and acute risks arising from Britain’s departure and to present constructive proposals for solutions,” Lang said.
Germany’s VDA automobile association, which represents major manufacturers such as BMW (BMWG.DE), is also involved in the task force meetings on Brexit, a VDA spokeswoman said.
The UK is the second-biggest export market for German car manufacturers with a value of nearly 29 billion euros ($34 billion). German carmakers and suppliers also employ roughly 9,000 people at 95 production sites in Britain.
The BDI and VDA did not name individual companies taking part in the task force meetings.
GROWING NERVOUSNESS
The industry preparations are the result of growing nervousness after slow and acrimonious negotiations so far between Britain’s Brexit minister David Davis and his counterpart at the European Commission, Michel Barnier.
In Europe’s biggest economy, companies are now preparing for the worst, including the imposition of tariffs and the risk of a loss of access to London financial markets.
Foreign direct investments from both sides amount to some 140 billion euros and German companies employ roughly 400,000 people in the UK, according to BDI.
The task force, established in early summer, is accelerating its work in regular meetings in Berlin, Lang said. It is expected to present conclusions in December and this could also help shape the position of the next coalition government.
Chancellor Angela Merkel has repeatedly made clear that she regrets the British decision to leave the EU but that London should not expect a special deal and that keeping the remaining 27 member states together is more important for her.
Dampening hopes among some Brexiteers that London could succeed in driving a wedge between governments and companies in other European countries, Lang said German industry fully backed the EU’s negotiation strategy.
“To make it clear: Yes, German industry wants to keep a very close relationship with Britain. But have no doubt: We prioritize the further development of the EU,” Lang said.
“The ball now lies in Britain’s court. The speech by the British prime minister in Florence two weeks ago by no means brought the clarity that had been hoped for,” Lang said, referring to May’s attempt to speed up negotiations.
European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker said on Tuesday that the fourth round of negotiations did not produce enough agreement for the EU to yield to May’s demands for immediate talks on a free trade deal and a transition to it after Brexit.
This is, of course, the trade body that many Leavers swore blind would pressure Merkel to meet their absurd demands.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/05 18:41:12
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
Kilkrazy wrote: Not you, then, but a lot of Brexiteers want to get out immediately, whatever the consequences.
Considering how incompetent the Tories are right now, Brexiting ASAP is looking like the sensible option at this moment.
The Tories are that incompetent, they'd probably end up giving Hadrian's wall back to the Italians.
Is was almost an inevitability from voting Brexit regardless of which party was in power. Just like any project if you start out with no real plan, no idea as to what you want or how to get there then there is only one inevitable outcome. You will get a complete mess, just like any other project.
This all came about because of a political battle in one party, which no one expected to go the way it did. But by doing so there is no idea what anyone wants and they are all scrambling around fighting for different things (apart from Boris the Clown who just wants to make an idiot out of himself).
However I do have a new slogan for the Tory party, one that is more realistic to their aspirations:-
"Strong and Absorbent - because you'll need something to wipe your ass on when you *insert expletive* yourself when the poo hits Wrexit fan"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/05 19:33:55
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Boris is like Farage. He wants all the attention and adulation but none of the responsibility and blame. Seems to me like he wants May to fire him so he can go back to being the adored outspoken outsider.
Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun
Kilkrazy wrote: The EU will be reformed in the ways that the member states want to reform it, influenced more by the most important states like Germany and the UK. If you don't want the EU to become a United States of Europe, the way to prevent that is to stay inside and work against it.
I have to disagree with this supposition. The UK has always been the outsider in the EU Club. You know the type, the scholarship lad in the fee paying college. Tolerated, but never good enough.
The UK has always seen itself as separate from the EU and the EU sees us in a similar light. De Gaul, never wanted the UK in the single market and I think that attitude prevails even today. With that, the UK was never going to influence the workings of the EU as France and Germany have been and are the historic leaders of the countries on mainland Europe, and to be fair I can see why. There is easy access to them with a land border, whereas there is a psychological barrier to the UK as a result of the channel.
Cheers
Andrew
I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!
Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
People are also forgetting their British history here.
For 300 years, it has always been British policy not to let one power dominate Europe, and to remain aloof, but an active observer of what was going on in Europe. Semi-detached in other words.
In many respects, us being in the EU, but never really at home in the EU, kind of fits this long term national trend.
There's a quote from 1713 or something from the Prime Minister, can't remember who, and it goes along the lines of: "10 battles in Europe this year, and not one dead Englishman. A happy state of affairs."
We're never going to lose our island mentality, that's the bottom line here. It's too deep within our national DNA.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
For 300 years, it has always been British policy not to let one power dominate Europe, and to remain aloof, but an active observer of what was going on in Europe. Semi-detached in other words.
In many respects, us being in the EU, but never really at home in the EU, kind of fits this long term national trend.
There's a quote from 1713 or something from the Prime Minister, can't remember who, and it goes along the lines of: "10 battles in Europe this year, and not one dead Englishman. A happy state of affairs."
We're never going to lose our island mentality, that's the bottom line here. It's too deep within our national DNA.
So we should be staying in the EU just to annoy them.
But I still feel we're so much better off in it, than next to it. That way we can try to reform it and benefit from membership.
Thats a delusion. There is only one direction in which the EU can ever and will ever reform, and that is "Ever closer union". For anyone who opposes further integration and blurring of national boundaries and sovereignty, the only long term solution is withdrawal.
But for anyone that wants integration and the eventual establishment of a European Super State, then I'm sure its all fine and dandy for you.
Reform and integration aren't incompatible. Integration doesn't necessarily end in a single state.
For 300 years, it has always been British policy not to let one power dominate Europe, and to remain aloof, but an active observer of what was going on in Europe. Semi-detached in other words.
In many respects, us being in the EU, but never really at home in the EU, kind of fits this long term national trend.
There's a quote from 1713 or something from the Prime Minister, can't remember who, and it goes along the lines of: "10 battles in Europe this year, and not one dead Englishman. A happy state of affairs."
We're never going to lose our island mentality, that's the bottom line here. It's too deep within our national DNA.
So we should be staying in the EU just to annoy them.
That's something I can get behind.
What I'm saying is that us leaving makes sense in terms of historic trends.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/06 07:32:56
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
What I'm saying is that us leaving makes sense in terms of historic trends.
Saying that something makes sense because of how things once where doesn't really make sense. If we all used that kind of logic then germany should still always work against france seeing as they were "arch-enemies" for quite some time...
Yeah, you can use historic trends to try and predict the future, but the world is hugely different from 300 years ago. We're a lot closer with our neighbours now than we used to be and have been reaping the benefits of that relationship.
It's no longer a valid thing to sit back and let the French and Germans chase each other round fields with pike and musket.
After that conference I think getting rid of her is the only way the party can save face. It's the absolute worst timing, do we need to waste even more time on a 3rd leadership contest during Brexit negotiations?
She's an embarrassment and needs to go. Her only ability that got her where she is now is "submarining" and knowing when to shut up when everyone around her is making a fool of themselves. She's got no drive, vision or charisma.
Of all of the replacements circling, who's least terrible? Can we get Cameron back?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/06 08:53:05
Leaders can be loved, and leaders can be feared, but once people start feeling sorry for leaders, it's all over, their authority slowly slips away.
May is the Tory answer to Ed Miliband: well meaning, but totally out of her depth.
I'll tell you one thing, George Osborne must be kicking himself, because if he had held on as an MP for a few more months, he'd be in prime position for a serious crack at the leadership.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
TIme for May to go, and the Tories to wreck Brexit with their incessant infighting.
That done, they Evil Party will be left with absolutely no scape goats this time. Nobody else to pin the blame on. And it will bury them and their politics for a good long while.
And that is what this country needs. When the Express and the Heil can't spin the heat off the Tories, they lose their influence. That is also what this country needs.
It's going to be a terrible time in the short term, but if it destroys the Tory Party as it stands today, it may prove worth it.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Okay, so you want to get rid of May because she's so bad and all, that's nice. Just a question though ; what about the negociations ? Do you really think changing the head once again will go in your favor ? Do youknow how much time left before the date for Brexit happens effectively ? It's not wonder the german industry union is warning their industries to stock from now. Given how far are the negociations and how many months are left, it's really naive to think that they can set everything up in such a short amount of time.
It's time the UK finally do something to get themselves out of this horrible mess. And by that, I mean its people. Or maybe you want to wake up when the whole thing is done and all bridges are burned ? I'm telling you, it will be too late.
I'm still not convinced that we'll actually leave the EU. The Tories will feth up so bad that another election will have to be called, then Labour will get in and cancel the whole shebang at the 11th hour.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/06 12:36:55
Kilkrazy wrote: Cameron is the twonk who got us into this mess.
And yet some people think he's better than May.
Thing is, I don't think "getting rid of her" will solve all the problems. She's a representative, there are many others people thinking the same behind her. If another of the same kind takes her place, it will change nothing.
Meanwhile, the clock is ticking. And I don't think EU will be ready to make gifts to UK. Sure, UK has a fine history and all. But assuming from it that everything will be fine in the future is foolish. Something must be done, and quick. You just can't wait and hope sunshines and flowers will suddenly appear from the sky, just because in the past you always managed to get back on your feet. A lot of empires and countries have fallen in the past because of the pride of their people. UK is no exception to that.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/06 13:11:50
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: I'm still not convinced that we'll actually leave the EU. The Tories will feth up so bad that another election will have to be called, then Labour will get in and cancel the whole shebang at the 11th hour.
I've a feeling that's what's going to happen. Then we'll have to learn why Corbyn's kind of politics don't work all over again.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/06 13:46:51
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: I'm still not convinced that we'll actually leave the EU. The Tories will feth up so bad that another election will have to be called, then Labour will get in and cancel the whole shebang at the 11th hour.
I've a feeling that's what's going to happen. Then we'll have to learn why Corbyn's kind of politics don't work all over again.
Unless, of course, they do work this time. Mays kind of politics clearly isn't working.
Kilkrazy wrote: Cameron is the twonk who got us into this mess.
And yet some people think he's better than May.
More that he's less dreadful than May. He had a bit of character, and you could almost like him if you weren't so creeped out. May has, as far as I can tell, no redeeming features.
Cameron would hopefully stayed vaguely on track and caved in to all EU requests - so we'd get somewhere.
Thing is, I don't think "getting rid of her" will solve all the problems. She's a representative, there are many others people thinking the same behind her. If another of the same kind takes her place, it will change nothing.
It'll solve a problem in that she's directionless and has no control over her cabinet., both of which are undermining our position when it comes to the EU negotiations. There's contradictory reports coming out between May/Davis/Johnson on a weekly basis, she keeps changing her mind about everything and so on. If we can get a replacement that can make a decision and stick with it, and can get his/her staff to stop contradicting him/her every statement, then we'd be getting on much better.
Even a poor stance is better that whatever May is doing, if it's consistent. That way we can get some closure and then we can plan around it and move forward. Currently it's impossible to make any plans or do any negotiating because we still don't know anything about (a) what they want and (b) which of the 3 stooges they should actually be listening to.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: I'm still not convinced that we'll actually leave the EU. The Tories will feth up so bad that another election will have to be called, then Labour will get in and cancel the whole shebang at the 11th hour.
I've a feeling that's what's going to happen. Then we'll have to learn why Corbyn's kind of politics don't work all over again.
Well neo-liberalism hasn't exactly pulled a blinder for the average Joe. Unless you rate success by how many billionaires a country has. The Tories are well meaning, but sometimes callous, buffoons, and many people have had enough of their BS.
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
Of all of the replacements circling, who's least terrible? Can we get Cameron back?
David Davis. I regard him as a bit of a Cincinnatus type figure.
David Davis has been quoted as saying he is leaving after 2019...he's happily preparing his life raft whilst the rest of us drown (and I'm sure he'll find some cushy job somewhere...)
Sarouan wrote: Okay, so you want to get rid of May because she's so bad and all, that's nice. Just a question though ; what about the negociations ? Do you really think changing the head once again will go in your favor ? Do youknow how much time left before the date for Brexit happens effectively ? It's not wonder the german industry union is warning their industries to stock from now. Given how far are the negociations and how many months are left, it's really naive to think that they can set everything up in such a short amount of time.
It's time the UK finally do something to get themselves out of this horrible mess. And by that, I mean its people. Or maybe you want to wake up when the whole thing is done and all bridges are burned ? I'm telling you, it will be too late.
I'm afraid you are thinking too highly of the UK government and populace. Our approach to Wrexit is more along these lines:-
Bart = EU, Homer = UK, children = rest of world watching, helicopter and ambulance = Trump's US
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/06 19:50:05
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Of all of the replacements circling, who's least terrible? Can we get Cameron back?
David Davis. I regard him as a bit of a Cincinnatus type figure.
David Davis has been quoted as saying he is leaving after 2019...he's happily preparing his life raft whilst the rest of us drown (and I'm sure he'll find some cushy job somewhere...)
Right...which only reinforces my perception of him as a Cincinnatus-like figure.
Do you even know who Cincinnatus was?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/06 19:55:30
..hang on ...
