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http://www.euronews.com/2017/10/25/brexit-boss-refers-to-czechoslovakia-in-boast-about-european-intelligence

Brexit chief David Davis made reference to Holland and Czechoslovakia as EU countries as he boasted of his team’s European knowledge.

It happened as Davis, who is leading the UK’s exit from Brussels, was speaking to MPs in London about the progress of negotiations.

Asked what would happen if a deal with the EU was left until the last minute, he suggested Britain would be in a strong position because its diplomats knew what each member state wanted from the final agreement.

“If the experience to date is anything to go by we’ll have a pretty good idea of where their end game is,” he told MPs

“We’ve got a pretty good idea of what the economic interests are of every single member state.

“They are not focussing on [the negotiations] all the time.

“Germany, Austria, Holland and Czechoslovakia are all without governments at the moment so this is not top of their tree.

“Nevertheless we’ve got a pretty good idea of where they will end up at the end of this, even if there are delays on the way.”

I thought Holland was the French Prime minister.

Also, isn't Czechoslovakia part of the Habsburg Empire?

And it's next to East Germany

 Ketara wrote:
From what I read, the MP in question was getting annoyed because his daughter's engineering lecturer was physically handing out literature opposing Brexit and ranting about it in class (instead of teaching engineering). So there is some basis for his motivations beyond the 'Root out the non-believers schpiel' a lot of people are sarcastically pushing.

On the other hand, what a lecturer chooses to say in his class is up to him, and if the students disagree with it or want him to get on with things, it's up to the students to talk to him or the course convenor. Mr 'I want to control what my daughter's lecturers talk about' needs to bugger off.

Yeah I think it might have been a different MP rather than the one researching his book of people for the chopping block.

However I would have liked to have seen the leaflet in question and heard more about the 'rant'. For example the university might have EU work placements under some scheme and that this might all be up in the air because of Wrexit. Therefore the leaflet might have been explaining why the students were not getting a work placement in an engineering company in southern France but instead were getting posted to picking Brussel Sprouts for the Tory party Christmas lunch (not that you really need anymore total sprouts at such a meal).

I can imagine the conversation now. "Hi Dad, we had a lecture today and explained why everything you say is a complete bag of [insert expletive]. I have got to say I totally agree with them"; might not have gone down well....


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 reds8n wrote:
http://www.euronews.com/2017/10/25/brexit-boss-refers-to-czechoslovakia-in-boast-about-european-intelligence

Spoiler:

Brexit chief David Davis made reference to Holland and Czechoslovakia as EU countries as he boasted of his team’s European knowledge.

It happened as Davis, who is leading the UK’s exit from Brussels, was speaking to MPs in London about the progress of negotiations.

Asked what would happen if a deal with the EU was left until the last minute, he suggested Britain would be in a strong position because its diplomats knew what each member state wanted from the final agreement.

“If the experience to date is anything to go by we’ll have a pretty good idea of where their end game is,” he told MPs

“We’ve got a pretty good idea of what the economic interests are of every single member state.

“They are not focussing on [the negotiations] all the time.

“Germany, Austria, Holland and Czechoslovakia are all without governments at the moment so this is not top of their tree.

“Nevertheless we’ve got a pretty good idea of where they will end up at the end of this, even if there are delays on the way.”

Well, well, well, well, well. Looks like the EU owes Britain a wad of cash, and we'll be having that back, thank you very much:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41774817

Or it'll be offset against the divorce bill....

tneva82 wrote:

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Let the good times roll

Economic growth is up: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41747940

And the UK is undergoing a record tourism boom: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-41684952 with NI cashing in.

Yeah, the UK economy ain't perfect, but we're not doing an Oliver Twist impression as some would have us believe

The important thing is to compare it how other nations are doing. Looking at things in isolation can make things look better and worse than they really are. If our growth is 0.4% and everyone else's is 10% then we are falling way behind and relatively we are doing a lot worse. So this is how things compare

Plus brexit hasn't happened. Let's see how well UK does when they lose access to single market and bank's lose their banking passport

That's the common message these days. If something goes wrong in Britain, it's because of Brexit. If something good happens, it's because Brexit hasn't happened. Well it won't work on me


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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Or it'll be offset against the divorce bill....

The EU expects us to hand over money at warp speed, but we'll need a crowbar and TNT to prise our cash from Juncker's hand, if I know Brussels

Dude.

It's £10.1bn tops.

Nationally speaking, that's chickenfeed.

And it's not going to prop up our ailing and failing economy, assuming it doesn't just get absorbed by Tory Donors through further tax breaks.

I'm also hearing it's not just cash that the UK is entitled to from the divorce, but physical assets as well.

I fully expect Her Majesty's Government to send the removal vans to Brussels and get them to load up with office equipment, laptops, vending machines, stationery etc etc and bring it back to the people who paid for it i.e people like me!


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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Dude.

It's £10.1bn tops.

Nationally speaking, that's chickenfeed.

And it's not going to prop up our ailing and failing economy, assuming it doesn't just get absorbed by Tory Donors through further tax breaks.

I don't expect 10 billion to bail out the economy, but that 10 billion could pay for upgrades at Dover, or a new IT system for customs, or 10,000 new border staff etc etc

More likely it’ll be wiped out by any drop in the pound before it can offset anything. It’s small potatoes, there’s bigger money elsewhere.

The way our ‘obligations’ to the EU seem so difficult to pin down and seem so open to negotiation as to be meaningless. It’s whatever each side can bamboozle and strong arm out of the other. Further, that the assets we’ve paid into we’re told we have no share in. Apparently once investment goes in it becomes owned by Brussels yet something the 28 members don’t somehow have a share of. While we have made agreements to the value of billions which likely have to be repaid, the EU has billions of investments in cash, property, loans, etc, which our net contributions I’ve many years have undoubtedly helped establish. But we’re told we have no share of them.

I heard that interview while driving to work. I thought it was sadly amusing that the EU is planning 25 years ahead while the UK sadly is failing to plan 2 years ahead.

As far as getting the money back, obviously the EU can scrape up £10 Bn from somewhere if they want to, but why should they rush to do it when it's us who've suddenly decided to stomp off in a huff, leaving the bank in the lurch?

At the risk of being otiose, we wouldn't need to be scraping around for £10 Bn for new border guards at Dover Customs if we stayed in the EU.

This year's budget is shaping up to be a doozy.

Ehm, that's how an investment works. You invest your money in something in order to get advantages for yourself from it. Sometimes the investment fails and you lose your money. You can't just retroactively decide you'd rather have had your money after all.

Do we have any contractual ownership of them?

If it's not in black and white, then we're going to have a hard time getting them to pay any of it to us, especially if we're being difficult about the money we owe them.

Just because we paid in doesn't we're entitled to any of it back - if I chipped in money for a golf clubs clubhouse and then left the club, I wouldn't be entitled to a share of it.

As said, we should be using it as a deduction of the divorce bill, once our Brexit team can tell their arse from their elbow.

That golf clubhouse example was a much better way of putting the point I tried making, thank you.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

That's the common message these days. If something goes wrong in Britain, it's because of Brexit. If something good happens, it's because Brexit hasn't happened. Well it won't work on me

Because it's true, maybe? bad things have happened as direct result of Brexit - the £ tanking, loss of investment and stability, wavering economy.
Anything happening now is still happening in the EU, so if it's good it's likely to be independent of brexit or despite of brexit - things are still working.

I've yet to hear of anything good happening because of Brexit (like investing in the UK because of it), because, I assume (a) no-one knows what the gak it is yet, (b) We can't take advantage of most of the freedom until we've left and (c) I genuinely disagree that most of the good things about Brexit are actually good.

The EU expects us to hand over money at warp speed, but we'll need a crowbar and TNT to prise our cash from Juncker's hand, if I know Brussels

Did you read why the bank is talking about spending 30 years to pay it back? It's because while we own 18% of the value of the bank, it's all paid out in loans, so we can only get it back as the loan is being repaid. Presumably we'll be getting it back pro-rata - so 18% of (repayments - overheads) will trickle back to us.

It's not as if they are sitting on a mountain of cash and just trying to be gakkers about it.

"the economic facts are just such that there are no winners in Brexit"

Is the truest thing I've seen said about Brexit.

Herzlos wrote:
Do we have any contractual ownership of them?

It seems like none of this was made clear cut as it was assumed no one would actually use article 50 to leave the EU. Now both sides are trying to decide what all these agreements actually mean years after signing them.

I don’t think the ‘clubhouse’ example work because a golf club exists as a privately owned body into which people pay to be members, it has established assets of its own before opening to members. You don’t own a section of the green because you joined for a few years. The EU exists entirely because of the members contributions. If a group of people come together to form a company and all pitch in money to start a project, and one leaves, you can’t reasonably say that all the assets belong to ‘the company’, and the individual members themselves have no share of that, it has assets only because they invested into it.

A clubhouse can be created by a group of founding members though - it doesn't need to be funded independently.

Say I + 99 other golfers use a course with no clubhouse, and we all decide to chip in to build a clubhouse, £10k each for a £1m building, once it's built the clubhouse has it's own accounts, incomes etc but all members get the appropriate benefit out of it (use of the clubhouse). I then decide I want to leave, but that doesn't mean I'd get my £10k + interest back.

if we'd chipped in £10k each to buy shares in a clubhouse, then I'd have been entitled to sell my 1% of shares to someone when I left, but again I couldn't expect the club to buy those shares off me just because I left; I'd need someone else willing to buy them.

Anyway, picking apart the analogy (which we all do) doesn't defeat the point - just because we paid money in, doesn't mean we're entitled to get it back.

The EIB is different, because we actually own 18% of the fund, and are entitled to getting it back as it is amortized.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I heard that interview while driving to work. I thought it was sadly amusing that the EU is planning 25 years ahead while the UK sadly is failing to plan 2 years ahead.

As far as getting the money back, obviously the EU can scrape up £10 Bn from somewhere if they want to, but why should they rush to do it when it's us who've suddenly decided to stomp off in a huff, leaving the bank in the lurch?

At the risk of being otiose, we wouldn't need to be scraping around for £10 Bn for new border guards at Dover Customs if we stayed in the EU.

This year's budget is shaping up to be a doozy.

I've seen the EU's 25 plan, as laid out by Macron and Juncker, and I don't like what I heard


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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Ehm, that's how an investment works. You invest your money in something in order to get advantages for yourself from it. Sometimes the investment fails and you lose your money. You can't just retroactively decide you'd rather have had your money after all.

I'd like that investment back.

I'd like the US's gold reserve. Doesn't mean I can have it.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I heard that interview while driving to work. I thought it was sadly amusing that the EU is planning 25 years ahead while the UK sadly is failing to plan 2 years ahead.

As far as getting the money back, obviously the EU can scrape up £10 Bn from somewhere if they want to, but why should they rush to do it when it's us who've suddenly decided to stomp off in a huff, leaving the bank in the lurch?

At the risk of being otiose, we wouldn't need to be scraping around for £10 Bn for new border guards at Dover Customs if we stayed in the EU.

This year's budget is shaping up to be a doozy.

I've seen the EU's 25 plan, as laid out by Macron and Juncker, and I don't like what I heard


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Ehm, that's how an investment works. You invest your money in something in order to get advantages for yourself from it. Sometimes the investment fails and you lose your money. You can't just retroactively decide you'd rather have had your money after all.

I'd like that investment back.

You don't like anything the EU does or doesn't do, so that's hardly a surprise.

I am disappoint that you oppose EU funding for social housing projects, though. Our own government has been a conspicuous failure in this area of policy, which is a source of great trouble and distress to the younger generation.

I'm not blaming Dakka members for this, but ever since the Brexit talks happened, a lot of Remain supporters have smugly asserted that all the woes will be on the UK, and the EU can sail on serenely, as though the Brexit talks were occurring in a bubble.

I say this, because the EU has a Catalonia shaped problem heading its way. The end result could be that the EU moves to get Brexit done and dusted ASAP. Who knows?

And I'll finish by repeating one of my favourite quotes: "a week is a long time in politics."

It would be foolish for either side in the Brexit negotiations to predict what 2019 will look like.

@Kilkrazy. In reply to your earlier point, the EU are bribing us with our own money


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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'd like the US's gold reserve. Doesn't mean I can have it.

Eh? How have you got a claim to the US gold reserve?

Brexit isn't I'm most eu countries top 5 concerns. They don't care when it happens.

I don't think anyone has said brexit will be painless for the eu, just that it'll be an order of magnitude less painful for them than us.

I'll keep asking this until I get an answer; if Britain is willing to take a big hit for ideological reasons, why wouldn't the eu be prepared to take a small hit for ideological reasons?

The brexiteers narrative seems to relovolve around the eu having to give us a good deal because reasons.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I'd like that investment back.

Thats not how it works.

I'd like my gym membership back for the year I didn't use it. It ain't gonna happen

Herzlos wrote:

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I'd like that investment back.

Thats not how it works.

I'd like my gym membership back for the year I didn't use it. It ain't gonna happen

I presume you had a proper legal agreement in place with your gym, and that both parties (you and the gym) knew the score.

There is no such agreement with the EU, because nobody expected A50 to be activated. It was a sham from start to finish. Ergo, both sides could come to whatever agreement they want. Therefore, we might actually get that cash back.

No Deal Is Better Than A Bad Deal.

For Europe, at least.

Pretty sure they're not terribly fussed if we cut off our nose to spite our face....

Remember. They hold all the cards. All. Of. Them.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
No Deal Is Better Than A Bad Deal.

For Europe, at least.

Pretty sure they're not terribly fussed if we cut off our nose to spite our face....

Remember. They hold all the cards. All. Of. Them.

Catalonia's UDI could send unexpected shock waves through Europe. All I'm saying is that it would be foolish to think that absolutely nothing will go wrong for the EU from now until 2020. Or Britain for that matter.

We don't exist in a vacuum. A major terrorist attack, North Korea invading South Korea, Trump resigning, Russian problems in the Baltic, etc etc

any unexpected event could change the whole dynamic of the Brexit talks.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Well, well, well, well, well. Looks like the EU owes Britain a wad of cash, and we'll be having that back, thank you very much:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41774817

Why should this be a surprise? We've invested into the EU since the 1970s and the EIB has been going since the 1950s. Stupidly it is a bank so you would actually be better leaving the money in there and continue to invest in it as the return will pay back the investment. However it has 'European' at the beginning of it and that it is like a red rag regardless of how sensible the idea is for the UK. I feel sorry for the music band Europe, they are probably getting hate mail in the thousands each day simply because of their name...

As already noted it is likely this will be offset against any final EU 'bill' if the UK government in their idiocy thinks it is a good idea to get out sooner rather than later (and hence cut short the investment).


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 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


I don't expect 10 billion to bail out the economy, but that 10 billion could pay [...] or 10,000 new border staff etc etc

It's this sort of statement that makes me wonder about some people's maths...


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 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

That's the common message these days. If something goes wrong in Britain, it's because of Brexit. If something good happens, it's because Brexit hasn't happened. Well it won't work on me

I see exaggeration is the byword then. I don't think anyone blames the Wrexit for any of these...

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/only-a-quarter-of-children-who-need-mental-health-treatment-are-able-to-access-it-report-reveals_uk_59f23956e4b077d8dfc8674b?utm_hp_ref=uk-politics

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41753022

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41778609

On the other hand issues with the economy, declining relative wages, increased costs for import etc etc are a direct impact from Wrexit. I think it is more some Brexiters prefer to deny that the bad things are happening, possible and were predicted. At least some are sensible and just say they don't care how much damage it will do (at least acknowledging there will be lots).

@whirlwind.

You're not suggesting that 10 billion couldn't pay for a few thousand new border staff, or something similar? I may disagree with you a lot, but I refuse to believe that you believe that!

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I'd like that investment back.

Thats not how it works.

I'd like my gym membership back for the year I didn't use it. It ain't gonna happen

I presume you had a proper legal agreement in place with your gym, and that both parties (you and the gym) knew the score.

There is no such agreement with the EU, because nobody expected A50 to be activated. It was a sham from start to finish. Ergo, both sides could come to whatever agreement they want. Therefore, we might actually get that cash back.

I did. So did we. It just doesn't contain a clause on who gets what if anyone is stupid enough to leave. But that doesn't give us care blanche to interpret that to mean what we want; we need to negotiate it with the EU.


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 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
@whirlwind.

You're not suggesting that 10 billion couldn't pay for a few thousand new border staff, or something similar? I may disagree with you a lot, but I refuse to believe that you believe that!

It'd pay for about 250,000 staff for a year, assuming £20k salary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
No Deal Is Better Than A Bad Deal.

For Europe, at least.

Pretty sure they're not terribly fussed if we cut off our nose to spite our face....

Remember. They hold all the cards. All. Of. Them.

Catalonia's UDI could send unexpected shock waves through Europe. All I'm saying is that it would be foolish to think that absolutely nothing will go wrong for the EU from now until 2020. Or Britain for that matter.

We don't exist in a vacuum. A major terrorist attack, North Korea invading South Korea, Trump resigning, Russian problems in the Baltic, etc etc

any unexpected event could change the whole dynamic of the Brexit talks.

Indeed they could, and Europe is far more concerned about those things than us taking our ball home. What events do you see that'll get us more bargaining power?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
@whirlwind.

You're not suggesting that 10 billion couldn't pay for a few thousand new border staff, or something similar? I may disagree with you a lot, but I refuse to believe that you believe that!

The problem is you are out by more than an order of magnitude which suggests a lack of grasp of numbers at this size and what it can and cannot mean. Assuming a £20000 gross wage per border employee, 10billion (which I assume 1x10^10 as the standard term not the old UK billion, which would 1x10^13) gets you 500,000 employees not 10,000!

Honestly, it's not like DINLT said all 10 billion were to be spent on border guards, hence the "etc. etc. etc.". I think it's perfectly clear from his post that such border guards were just one thing of many that the 10 billion could pay for.