Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


And as I've pointed out before, just because the Tories are useless, doesn't make Brexit a bad idea

Under the Tories it does. The implementation is part of the decision. You may think getting your damaged car is a good idea, but you probably think having your damaged car repaired by someone who doesn't know what a car is is a really bad idea.

To use another analogy, we don't yet have the tech for a manned space flight to Mars, but who would argue against it? Very few people I'll wager.

But we wouldn't vote to get an incompetent team to launch it within 2 years whether or not we've figured out how to do it.

For the record I'm not even that against the notion of Brexit itself, had there been any competence and diplomacy at the helm, and some sort of majority. This can only turn out to be a complete clusterfeth because we've handed the control over the biggest decision in living memory to some of the least competent career politicians we've ever encountered.

I keep banging this drum, but the problem is the lack of vision and can do attitude.

If we need more nurses. Train them.

If we lack negotiators. Hire more.

If we need better port facilities at Dover, then build them.

I appreciate the fact that these things take time and money, but all we get from government these days is managed decline.

Brexit is the opportunity for this nation to roll up its sleeves and get stuck in with building stuff.

"Do you wish to jump out of a plane?"

A proud, resonant, patriotic, lower lip trembling "YES!!!!!!"

"The parachute might not work"

"PFFT PROJECT FEAR!!!!!!"

... on the way down ...

"WHY ISN'T THE PARACHUTE WORKING??????"

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I keep banging this drum, but the problem is the lack of vision and can do attitude.

I agree entirely, however...

Brexit is the opportunity for this nation to roll up its sleeves and get stuck in with building stuff.

And it's a missed opportunity because we've still got the same feckless gaks in charge, but with less oversight.

Lots of stuff was getting built... with EU grant money, or to comply with EU directives. We're now going to lose both of those sources or incentives.

Any economic drop due to Brexit (inevitable - even the cost of Brexit itself will hurt here) takes money directly away from these great projects you're dreaming of.

You've set us back decades. There's none of your grand vision we couldn't do more easily before Brexit.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I keep banging this drum, but the problem is the lack of vision and can do attitude.

If we need more nurses. Train them.

If we lack negotiators. Hire more.

If we need better port facilities at Dover, then build them.

I appreciate the fact that these things take time and money, but all we get from government these days is managed decline.

Brexit is the opportunity for this nation to roll up its sleeves and get stuck in with building stuff.

Shame our Government is using it as an excuse to potentially slash workers rights and turn us into a tax haven, yeah?

Live in the now man. Brexit continues to be a disaster. It’s not gonna all come out in the wash. We did tell you so.

 Darkjim wrote:
"Do you wish to jump out of a plane?"

A proud, resonant, patriotic, lower lip trembling "YES!!!!!!"

"The parachute might not work"

"PFFT PROJECT FEAR!!!!!!"

... on the way down ...

"WHY ISN'T THE PARACHUTE WORKING??????"

Well, if I was travelling on Juncker Airways, and heading for a military base being operated by an EU army which we're told will never exist (yeah right) I'd probably want to get off that plane as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I keep banging this drum, but the problem is the lack of vision and can do attitude.

I agree entirely, however...

Brexit is the opportunity for this nation to roll up its sleeves and get stuck in with building stuff.

And it's a missed opportunity because we've still got the same feckless gaks in charge, but with less oversight.

Lots of stuff was getting built... with EU grant money, or to comply with EU directives. We're now going to lose both of those sources or incentives.

Any economic drop due to Brexit (inevitable - even the cost of Brexit itself will hurt here) takes money directly away from these great projects you're dreaming of.

You've set us back decades. There's none of your grand vision we couldn't do more easily before Brexit.

The reason why it will be difficult is because the tentacles of the EU have established such a hold on this nation, we will need a crowbar and TNT to prise them away. And the fact that a generation of politicians have forgotten how to run a nation.

We will learn those skills again. We had them for 300 years and they'll come back.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Well, if I was travelling on Juncker Airways, and heading for a military base being operated by an EU army which we're told will never exist (yeah right) I'd probably want to get off that plane as well.

Only you would chose a quite serious chance of death over some hypothetical that isn't even that bad. What's the big deal if there's an EU army? That's essentially what we've already got, but with some cost savings thrown in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

The reason why it will be difficult is because the tentacles of the EU have established such a hold on this nation, we will need a crowbar and TNT to prise them away. And the fact that a generation of politicians have forgotten how to run a nation.

Can you name a single thing in your grand vision we can't do because of the EU?

Or are you trying to claim our politicians are crap because we're in the EU? That's... incredible. It's even further out there than that £350m a week.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I keep banging this drum, but the problem is the lack of vision and can do attitude.

If we need more nurses. Train them.

If we lack negotiators. Hire more.

If we need better port facilities at Dover, then build them.

I appreciate the fact that these things take time and money, but all we get from government these days is managed decline.

Brexit is the opportunity for this nation to roll up its sleeves and get stuck in with building stuff.

Shame our Government is using it as an excuse to potentially slash workers rights and turn us into a tax haven, yeah?

Live in the now man. Brexit continues to be a disaster. It’s not gonna all come out in the wash. We did tell you so.

We had workers rights long before the EU rolled into town. We legalised same sex relations in 1967, which predates our 1973 EEC entry.

We legalised same sex marriage years before Germany, but of course, it's Britain that's the nation of oppression and bigotry and so on...

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Which is why you should take into consideration whether the government is capable enough to handle such talks and negotiations before insisting they do so.

It was pointed out many times that the UK lacked negotiation experience compared to the EU and that our cabinet ministers were useless. Don't blame the government for being useless in important negotiations when you knew they were useless but insisted they begin negotiations anyway.

And as I've pointed out before, just because the Tories are useless, doesn't make Brexit a bad idea

If we were to judge aviation solely on the basis of the Wright brother's plane, we'd have never have gotten off the ground.

Except the Wright Brothers did get off the ground, thus proving the feasibility of heavier than air powered flight.

Nobody has yet proved any feasibility of our government to successfully negotiate Brexit.

The tories being useless does make Brexit a terrible idea at this time. That does not mean it is a terrible idea in the future when we (supposedly) have a competent government and more civil servants with trade negotiation experience.

But we would never have gotten another chance for Brexit. It was now or never.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:
Can you name a single thing in your grand vision we can't do because of the EU?

Negotiate our own trade deals.

With what clout?

You....you do know that the Empire is long gone, and our industry all but gutted, yeah?

Tell me. What do we have to offer they can’t get elsewhere, like from Europe?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


But we would never have gotten another chance for Brexit. It was now or never.

And you chose making a royal arse of it now?
You'd have been able to do it again later if the will of the people was really there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:
Can you name a single thing in your grand vision we can't do because of the EU?

Negotiate our own trade deals.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I keep banging this drum, but the problem is the lack of vision and can do attitude.

If we need more nurses. Train them.

If we lack negotiators. Hire more.

If we need better port facilities at Dover, then build them.

I appreciate the fact that these things take time and money, but all we get from government these days is managed decline.

Brexit is the opportunity for this nation to roll up its sleeves and get stuck in with building stuff.

Shame our Government is using it as an excuse to potentially slash workers rights and turn us into a tax haven, yeah?

Live in the now man. Brexit continues to be a disaster. It’s not gonna all come out in the wash. We did tell you so.

We had workers rights long before the EU rolled into town. We legalised same sex relations in 1967, which predates our 1973 EEC entry.

We legalised same sex marriage years before Germany, but of course, it's Britain that's the nation of oppression and bigotry and so on...

Not the country, the current Government.

My only hope here is that the Tories screw this up so hideously, that their lack of a scapegoat this time round buries them and neoliberalism for good, it’s been nothing but destructive.

Herzlos wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Well, if I was travelling on Juncker Airways, and heading for a military base being operated by an EU army which we're told will never exist (yeah right) I'd probably want to get off that plane as well.

Only you would chose a quite serious chance of death over some hypothetical that isn't even that bad. What's the big deal if there's an EU army? That's essentially what we've already got, but with some cost savings thrown in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

The reason why it will be difficult is because the tentacles of the EU have established such a hold on this nation, we will need a crowbar and TNT to prise them away. And the fact that a generation of politicians have forgotten how to run a nation.

Can you name a single thing in your grand vision we can't do because of the EU?

Or are you trying to claim our politicians are crap because we're in the EU? That's... incredible. It's even further out there than that £350m a week.

Eh? The evidence is all around us. We're struggling to negotiate with the EU because we've never had to negotiate these things for decades...because the EU done it for us.

When a government delegation went to the USA a few months back to talk potential trade deals with the Yanks, it was like Homer Simpson hiring Lionel Hutz and putting him up against Mr Burns' army of Ivy league lawyers.

Again, that was because normally, Brussels' army of top class lawyers would have previously fought that battle for us.

We as a nation have abdicated responsibility for far too long.

Oh FFS.

The Tories are incompetent, and their lies have landed us in a complete mess.

Nobody has been able to offer a single law ‘foisted’ upon us by the EU. Nobody.

The whole anti-EU rhetoric is bull poop. And always has been. But here we are. In a mess. And now you’re blaming it on the EU. Then top it off by saying we’ve abdicated responsibility? Like you just did. Blaming the EU for lies you continue to repeat.

Herzlos wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


But we would never have gotten another chance for Brexit. It was now or never.

And you chose making a royal arse of it now?
You'd have been able to do it again later if the will of the people was really there.

No we wouldn't.

The EU is coalescing into a State in its own right - thats the whole point of the European Project. Eventually at some point in the future, we [the UK] will no longer be a sovereign nation anymore. Which is the express desire of many people in this thread, to erase national boundaries and form a European super state.

It'd be like the American South trying to secede from the USA in the 19th century - it just would not be permitted by the rest of the Union.

This is our last chance to secede peacefully.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Eh? The evidence is all around us. We're struggling to negotiate with the EU because we've never had to negotiate these things for decades...because the EU done it for us.

We've still had to negotiate and deal with stuff though, just not trade deals.

When a government delegation went to the USA a few months back to talk potential trade deals with the Yanks, it was like Homer Simpson hiring Lionel Hutz and putting him up against Mr Burns' army of Ivy league lawyers.

Yeah we're a joke. But you voted to let that joke make the decisions.

Again, that was because normally, Brussels' army of top class lawyers would have previously fought that battle for us.

An army of lawyers that got us good deals whilst we only paid a fraction of their upkeep. Another reason to stay in the EU.

We as a nation have abdicated responsibility for far too long.

Which is the fault of our government, not the EU.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Oh FFS.

The Tories are incompetent, and their lies have landed us in a complete mess.

Nobody has been able to offer a single law ‘foisted’ upon us by the EU. Nobody.

The whole anti-EU rhetoric is bull poop. And always has been. But here we are. In a mess. And now you’re blaming it on the EU. Then top it off by saying we’ve abdicated responsibility? Like you just did. Blaming the EU for lies you continue to repeat.

Eh? For months I've been saying we should build more stuff, go out and get our own trade deals and build this nation up for the future. I'm arguing we need to be more responsible for our own destiny.

That's the opposite of abdication!

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

The EU is coalescing into a State in its own right - thats the whole point of the European Project. Eventually at some point in the future, we [the UK] will no longer be a sovereign nation anymore. Which is the express desire of many people in this thread, to erase national boundaries and form a European super state.

It'd be like the American South trying to secede from the USA in the 19th century - it just would not be permitted by the rest of the Union.

This is our last chance to secede peacefully.

Bullgak. There's no plans anywhere to turn the EU into a United States of Europe, and if it did, it could only do it with the consent of all of the nations under it. We're not going to lose any national identity, or national boundaries, or anything. Parts of the UK have been under various empires for the last 2 millenia, and we haven't lost any real boundaries (beyond those lost in conquest). The Scots, Irish, Welsh, Cornish, Anglians, etc all are still identifiably distinct entities. We've been a UK for a few hundred years now and there's still no consensus on what a gakking bread roll is called. So why do you think we're suddenly going to become generic Europeans?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Nobody has been able to offer a single law ‘foisted’ upon us by the EU. Nobody.

I've found one, involving the certifications for deactiving guns. It's become stricter and thus anyone with a UK deactivated gun needs to get it re-deactivated and taken to an armoury in Birmingham or London for certification, should they want to sell it.

People affected: a few hundred? Cost? A few hundred £ per gun.

Herzlos wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Eh? The evidence is all around us. We're struggling to negotiate with the EU because we've never had to negotiate these things for decades...because the EU done it for us.

We've still had to negotiate and deal with stuff though, just not trade deals.

When a government delegation went to the USA a few months back to talk potential trade deals with the Yanks, it was like Homer Simpson hiring Lionel Hutz and putting him up against Mr Burns' army of Ivy league lawyers.

Yeah we're a joke. But you voted to let that joke make the decisions.

Again, that was because normally, Brussels' army of top class lawyers would have previously fought that battle for us.

An army of lawyers that got us good deals whilst we only paid a fraction of their upkeep. Another reason to stay in the EU.

We as a nation have abdicated responsibility for far too long.

Which is the fault of our government, not the EU.

The situation is what is it, and there's nothing anybody on dakka can do about it, even if we were all 100% pro-EU, which we're obviously not

I'm happy to extend the hand of unity and friendship to my country men and women who voted Remain.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Eh? For months I've been saying we should build more stuff, go out and get our own trade deals and build this nation up for the future. I'm arguing we need to be more responsible for our own destiny.

Trade deals with who for what gain?

What was stopping us build the nation up from within the EU, using all that EU development money and a strong and stable economy?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Nobody has been able to offer a single law ‘foisted’ upon us by the EU. Nobody.

Another especially stupid one was that we used to have an intuitive colour coded system for our fire extinguishers - until Europe decided we had to follow them and have ours all the same colour with the concession that a bit of colour would be allowed to make it easier oh and pictograms.

What a great step forward - not.

EU development money

EU development money!!!!!!!!!!???????????

We're a net contributor!!!!!!!

We were spending our own money, but somehow, the EU convinced us we should be grateful for getting our own money.

Goebbels was an amateur compared to the Brussels propaganda machine.

God almighty, this is worse than I thought.

I don't blame you, Herzlos, I blame a system, that for decades, convinced large swathes of the British population that we should be grateful for getting money that was ours anyway.

The insidiousness of the EU is something I respect and fear in equal measure.

I need to lie down...

And membership added to our economy. But hey, don’t bring that up. I mean if we start relying on facts, where will it end!

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


The situation is what is it, and there's nothing anybody on dakka can do about it, even if we were all 100% pro-EU, which we're obviously not

I'm happy to extend the hand of unity and friendship to my country men and women who voted Remain.

And I'd take that hand. But I reserve the right to be gakked off about the damage people did to my kids futures because of some misplaced idealism.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

EU development money

EU development money!!!!!!!!!!???????????

We're a net contributor!!!!!!!

We were spending our own money, but somehow, the EU convinced us we should be grateful for getting our own money.

Do you honestly thing our gakshow of a goverment would spent that money in the places the EU is doing it? Have we even proposed spending that money on the sort of development projects the EU did, now that we're not sending it? Is that because we're probably going to be paying more to access the EU now we've left?

You're somehow assuming I think that the EU is building stuff for free but I'm well aware of how it works. I just feel that (a) the membership fee is well worth the benefits it brings and (b) the EU makes better decisions on how money is spent than our current group of country-club-over-country politicians.

I'm not saying the EU is perfect; it's got a lot of problems, and wastes a lot of money. But it's an order of magnitude better than our own government; I view them as the single most dangerous thing to our country.

If anyones buying into the propoganda, it's you.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

EU development money

EU development money!!!!!!!!!!???????????

We're a net contributor!!!!!!!

We were spending our own money, but somehow, the EU convinced us we should be grateful for getting our own money.

Goebbels was an amateur compared to the Brussels propaganda machine.

God almighty, this is worse than I thought.

I don't blame you, Herzlos, I blame a system, that for decades, convinced large swathes of the British population that we should be grateful for getting money that was ours anyway.

The insidiousness of the EU is something I respect and fear in equal measure.

I need to lie down...

You are now comparing the EU to Nazi Germany while complaining about propaganda. Let that sink in for a while.

You are now comparing the EU to Nazi Germany while complaining about propaganda. Let that sink in for a while.

No, I'm comparing one aspect of the EU to one aspect of Nazi Germany. Big difference.

The USA has an army. Nazi Germany had an army. Does that make the USA and Nazi Germany one and the same because of certain similarities?

Of course not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And membership added to our economy. But hey, don’t bring that up. I mean if we start relying on facts, where will it end!

The EU's market share is shrinking compared to the new money of Asia and South America.

I believe that the British cargo ships should be heading for India and China, and not be stuck in the EU.

Not for a minute am I saying we should stop trading with the EU

but we should be chasing the future, not the past, and making Asia the focus for trade.

Gentlemen, gentlemen!

A healthy debate is one thing, but let's not get after each other's throats!

Besides, relax. Kronk has it all figured out!



We have football! And cheerleaders! And Bourbon!

OMG! Totally worth wrecking our economy and international prestige to avoid!

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

The EU's market share is shrinking compared to the new money of Asia and South America.

I believe that the British cargo ships should be heading for India and China, and not be stuck in the EU.

Not for a minute am I saying we should stop trading with the EU

but we should be chasing the future, not the past, and making Asia the focus for trade.

Since the EU is the best part of a decade further into trading deals with most of Asia, and have about 10x our clout, what are you expecting we'll manage to do better with regards to Asia than we get within the EU? Is this hypothetical increase in trade to Asia worth risking any of our trade with the EU?
Bear in mind that some Asian trade goes through the EU.

We already buy and sell a lot of stuff from/to Asia from within the EU.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kronk wrote:

We have football!

No you don't. You've got Womans Rugby

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

The EU's market share is shrinking compared to the new money of Asia and South America.

I believe that the British cargo ships should be heading for India and China, and not be stuck in the EU.

Not for a minute am I saying we should stop trading with the EU

but we should be chasing the future, not the past, and making Asia the focus for trade.

The UK's economy is shrinking compared the new money of Asia because Asia is growing. South American isn't in a great place, overall, though.