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It’s also relevant to point out that the border is only an issue because we are being forced down a hard Brexit; the whole thing could be avoided if we stayed in the customs union or the free trade area, both of which are still options even if we leave the EU.

This was not part of the referendum question, which is a significant part of the problem a lot of us on the remain side have with the whole damn process. The remain position was very clearly defined, whilst the leave side was proposing a whole smorgasbord of wildly different (and often contradictory) ideas. There should have been a parliamentary commission (or similar) to actually work through this and develop a solid proposal for what leave would look like before it was presented to the public. That didn’t happen.

It should have been worked through and subject to parliamentary approval (or even another referendum) before we gave notice to leave. That didn’t happen.

And now the Brexiteers are desperately arguing we the public and possibly even parliament, shouldn’t be given a vote before we leave, even though that’s the only time it will be clear what the hell the whole thing actually means.

Yep!

The core problem is that the government has decided to intepret the referendum result -- Leave the EU -- as an instruction not to join EFTA, or EEA, or have a customs union.

There may be justification for this but it is not the question that was debated and asked, so there isn't any democratic mandate.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The Northern Irish peace process started about 20 years ago.

The history of trouble leading up to it has sadly, been ongoing for centuries.

People may think me heartless, but I really don't want trouble in Ireland, but neither do I want peace at any price, and if you tell millions of voters in Britain that they shouldn't vote on their country's future in case trouble breaks out in Ireland, well, you're effectively robbing these people of agency and causing resentment on both sides.

.

What if trouble in Ireland leads to bombs in Britain will you care then or British soldiers being deployed to the north again?

IMO any form of brexit that causes a border will start up trouble NI:

i) You have a hard border between the Republic and the North, not only will it cause economic problems to NI which will play right into dissident republicans hands, but as soon as you put someone manning a checkpoint on the border someone will end up taking a pot shot at them. All it takes is one or two events and the troubles could easily start up again.

ii) A border between the island of Ireland and Britain will only cause outrage among loyalist peoples and their paramilitary wings.

You say you don't want to get involved with Irish politics but if you're wiling to vote and debate about Brexit you can't ignore Irish politics!

It really is such a shame. All of these incredibly important issues being swept aside because of voter apathy and a minority of the British people got swept up in Daily Mail headlines about 'Bloody immigrants comin ova ere, stealin our jobs!"

On June 23rd 2016, the question on the ballot paper asked if Britain should stay in the EU.

It didn't ask if the British military should bomb Dublin and then invade and occupy the Republic of Ireland.

I, and millions of others had a peaceful vote on the UK's membership of a political and economic union.

And we're being told we shouldn't have voted for Brexit because we don't trust the Irish not to start killing each other again...

That is emotional blackmail towards the people on both sides that voted, and it infantalises the Irish people, because it basically says they need to be watched and they can't be trusted not to start shooting and bombing people.

I cast a vote to peacefully leave a economic union. If groups of people start shooting each other again, then I bear ZERO responsibility for the actions of others.

I will not be blackmailed like that, and I will NEVER bear any responsibility for that if it does happen. Zero, Absolutely fething zero.

Why the hell should I? Answer me that.

It's like the appeasers in the 1930s. Britain better not re-arm in case Hitler gets upset. This is where we're coming from here.

I think you're deliberately missing the point now.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


I will not be blackmailed like that, and I will NEVER bear any responsibility for that if it does happen. Zero, Absolutely fething zero.

Yet responsibility for every bad thing that happens due to Brexit will be pointed right at you since it came about due to your vote. A lot of people aren't going to let your forget or wriggle out of it.

We told you it was a bad idea, we have old you why. You did it anyway because you don't care about the consequences. It can only be your fault.

The effects of voting go beyond national borders as many national issues also have consequences on the international stage. The easiest example is the US, whether you only care for a candidate's domestic policies, voting for them means also acknowledging your vote will have a profound effect on the wider world. In the end you couldn't care less about the wider world, but you're partly responsible as a voter for what happens after you cast your vote.

When it comes to Brexit, departure of the UK from the EU has put certain factors that are important in keeping relations in NI relatively harmonious on thin ice. A direct result of the decision that the winning side of voters in the referendum made.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


I, and millions of others had a peaceful vote on the UK's membership of a political and economic union. Whilst being deliberately ignorant and uncaring of the consequences, and only being interfered in flashy headlines and scoffing at 'details' as they're someone else said problems.

Fixed that for you.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


And we're being told we shouldn't have voted for Brexit because we don't trust the Irish not to start killing each other again...

I'm Irish living in Scotland.

And You shouldn't have voted for brexit because it is a colossal act of stupidity. For me, Northern Ireland was a huge consideration. Anything less that giving it its due and proper understanding is insulting. From day 1, people pointed out the risks, problems and consequences of brexit in Northern Ireland. And is not the Irish 'killing each other'. Show some respect. To both sides. As much as many of the Catholics and republican-leaning folks up north consider themselves Irish, rather than British, there's plenty folks on the loyalist/unionist side than consider themselves British. And what's more, as a fellow scot, considering the huge links between the loyalists/unionists In Northern Ireland and the Scots (they're making off the same stock), I would have expected you to have some more understanding of the situation. This is not a case of barbarians you've got no links to on the edge of the empire suffering. These are your own people. They're your own kin, for the most part.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


That is emotional blackmail towards the people on both sides that voted, and it infantalises the Irish people, because it basically says they need to be watched and they can't be trusted not to start shooting and bombing people.

No, it's calling a spade a spade and holding you to account for your vote. It doesnt infantilise my people, it shows up your utter lack of understanding, comprehension and empathy of the situation. Par for the course really, considering your posts here.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I cast a vote to peacefully leave a economic union. If groups of people start shooting each other again, then I bear ZERO responsibility for the actions of others.

I will not be blackmailed like that, and I will NEVER bear any responsibility for that if it does happen. Zero, Absolutely fething zero.

Why the hell should I? Answer me that.

You voted for it. You don't get to shrug your shoulders and wash your hands of he consequences of your actions. That's why.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

It's like the appeasers in the 1930s. Britain better not re-arm in case Hitler gets upset. This is where we're coming from here.

No, where you are coming from is your love of flashy headlines and big bold statements, your contempt for details and the understanding of the nuances of the big picture. It just feels like All you want is your beloved brexit, no matter the cost I need livelihoods or bodies - and then you have the utter cheek to claim you then you will never bear any responsibility and will wash your hands of the actions YOU YOURSELF helped set in motion. How dare you sir. How bloody dare you.

If you read the proclamation of the Easter Uprising of 1916, there's a passage in it that says the destiny of Ireland should be in the hands of the Irish people.

Sounds good to me. No complaints here.

The Republic of Ireland has been a sovereign nation for nearly 100 years, so are they independent or are they not?

Becuase they can't complain if another sovereign nation peacefully exercises its right to stay in or leave a political orginisation that they are both members of.

Not only does Dublin want to have its cake and eat it, it wants to eat every cake in the bakery.

As far as I'm concerned, that is extracting the urine.

As I said earlier, Dublin would have a point if we were attacking them with the army. but we're not. I honestly couldn't give a damn what they think. If they want to decide to stay in the EU, that is their God given right. If we choose to leave, that is our God given right. It's as simple as that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:
I think you're deliberately missing the point now.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


I will not be blackmailed like that, and I will NEVER bear any responsibility for that if it does happen. Zero, Absolutely fething zero.

Yet responsibility for every bad thing that happens due to Brexit will be pointed right at you since it came about due to your vote. A lot of people aren't going to let your forget or wriggle out of it.

We told you it was a bad idea, we have old you why. You did it anyway because you don't care about the consequences. It can only be your fault.

If a shopkeeper sells a knife to a customer, and the customer uses that knife to kill people, that's the shopkeeper's fault?

If a man gets drunk, and kills somebody with a Honda car, that's Honda's fault? Assume the car is 100% in working order.

If I vote to leave the EU, and a terror orginisation in Ireland kills somebody, that's my fault, becuase I told them to kill people, supplied the weapons, and absolved them of personal responsibility? Right?

I'm to blame? Is that the logic at work here?

No liberal, Western democracy can be run on that logic.

You voted for something that puts both Ireland in a really difficult situation. And you've said you don't care because it doesn't directly affect you. No amount of dodgy analogies is going to get you out of it.

Deadnight wrote:And what's more, as a fellow scot, considering the huge links between the loyalists/unionists In Northern Ireland and the Scots (they're making off the same stock), I would have expected you to have some more understanding of the situation. This is not a case of barbarians you've got no links to on the edge of the empire suffering. These are your own people. They're your own kin, for the most part.

Good point; what do you reckon will happen with the sectarian trouble in Glasgow (where DINLT and I live) if the troubles spark afresh? I've seen more red hands I'm peace time than I'd ever like to.

If you voted for Brexit you can't pick and choose which of the effects you would like to say had something to do with you. If there is trouble because of the border, which comes about because of brexit then the people who voted for brexit are in some way responsible, especially since its not exactly a secret that it might not go down well over here.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The effects of voting go beyond national borders as many national issues also have consequences on the international stage. The easiest example is the US, whether you only care for a candidate's domestic policies, voting for them means also acknowledging your vote will have a profound effect on the wider world. In the end you couldn't care less about the wider world, but you're partly responsible as a voter for what happens after you cast your vote.

When it comes to Brexit, departure of the UK from the EU has put certain factors that are important in keeping relations in NI relatively harmonious on thin ice. A direct result of the decision that the winning side of voters in the referendum made.

I do care about the world, but I'm not going to be blackmailed or held hostage by the idea that my vote in a free, fair, and democratic referendum to peacefully leave a trading bloc, somehow absolves other people of personal responsiblity. NEVER! Society can't function under those restrictions.

With all due respect, and no offence intended to you, but your point is nonsense.

If I tell you to murder somebody, is your defence in court going to be that somebody told you to do it?

I'm sure the judge will let you walk away a free person.

I'll just pipe up and say that if the Troubles do spark up again as a direct result of Brexit then I'd support any move to postpone Brexit until it can be resolved. Even indefinitely.

To me, Brexit is worth short term economic damage, but not bloodshed.

I want Brexit, but I have no faith in the ability of this Tory Government to deliver it. I'm starting to come round to the idea that Labour might be better suited to fulfill it.

Deadnight wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


I, and millions of others had a peaceful vote on the UK's membership of a political and economic union. Whilst being deliberately ignorant and uncaring of the consequences, and only being interfered in flashy headlines and scoffing at 'details' as they're someone else said problems.

Fixed that for you.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


And we're being told we shouldn't have voted for Brexit because we don't trust the Irish not to start killing each other again...

I'm Irish living in Scotland.

And You shouldn't have voted for brexit because it is a colossal act of stupidity. For me, Northern Ireland was a huge consideration. Anything less that giving it its due and proper understanding is insulting. From day 1, people pointed out the risks, problems and consequences of brexit in Northern Ireland. And is not the Irish 'killing each other'. Show some respect. To both sides. As much as many of the Catholics and republican-leaning folks up north consider themselves Irish, rather than British, there's plenty folks on the loyalist/unionist side than consider themselves British. And what's more, as a fellow scot, considering the huge links between the loyalists/unionists In Northern Ireland and the Scots (they're making off the same stock), I would have expected you to have some more understanding of the situation. This is not a case of barbarians you've got no links to on the edge of the empire suffering. These are your own people. They're your own kin, for the most part.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


That is emotional blackmail towards the people on both sides that voted, and it infantalises the Irish people, because it basically says they need to be watched and they can't be trusted not to start shooting and bombing people.

No, it's calling a spade a spade and holding you to account for your vote. It doesnt infantilise my people, it shows up your utter lack of understanding, comprehension and empathy of the situation. Par for the course really, considering your posts here.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I cast a vote to peacefully leave a economic union. If groups of people start shooting each other again, then I bear ZERO responsibility for the actions of others.

I will not be blackmailed like that, and I will NEVER bear any responsibility for that if it does happen. Zero, Absolutely fething zero.

Why the hell should I? Answer me that.

You voted for it. You don't get to shrug your shoulders and wash your hands of he consequences of your actions. That's why.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

It's like the appeasers in the 1930s. Britain better not re-arm in case Hitler gets upset. This is where we're coming from here.

No, where you are coming from is your love of flashy headlines and big bold statements, your contempt for details and the understanding of the nuances of the big picture. It just feels like All you want is your beloved brexit, no matter the cost I need livelihoods or bodies - and then you have the utter cheek to claim you then you will never bear any responsibility and will wash your hands of the actions YOU YOURSELF helped set in motion. How dare you sir. How bloody dare you.

This is nothing more than a apology for violence and and the absolving of any responsibility for the individual actions of other people.

This is 2017. You'd have a point if I were voting to send Cromwell's army to Ireland, but it's not the 1650s, and I'm not.

The Irish people can't keep living in the past, and I'm not responsbile for William of Orange, the Battle of the Boyne, Wolfe Tone, Michael Collins, Ian Paisley, The Troubles, or any other action that happened either before I were born, or which I had no part of, if it happend during my lifetime.

It's NOT my problem if the Irish people can't live together in peace. Are they or are they not responsible for their own actions?

This is why I couldn't give a bucket of horsegak for Northern Ireland. I'm getting blamed for exercising my right to vote to peacefully leave a trading bloc.

Nobody voted Yes or No to occupy Ireland.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I'll just pipe up and say that if the Troubles do spark up again as a direct result of Brexit then I'd support any move to postpone Brexit until it can be resolved. Even indefinitely.

To me, Brexit is worth short term economic damage, but not bloodshed.

I want Brexit, but I have no faith in the ability of this Tory Government to deliver it. I'm starting to come round to the idea that Labour might be better suited to fulfill it.

Don't you dare vote to leave the EU, or the Irish might start killing each other again.

Fething hell, society can't fuction like that.

It's sticking two fingers up to millions of voters in the rest of the UK, effectively holding them over a barrel.

I always knew that the Remain argument was bankrupt to its core, but using the threat of violence to stop Leave voters from exercising their right to peacefully vote to peacefully leave a trading bloc is a new low.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The effects of voting go beyond national borders as many national issues also have consequences on the international stage. The easiest example is the US, whether you only care for a candidate's domestic policies, voting for them means also acknowledging your vote will have a profound effect on the wider world. In the end you couldn't care less about the wider world, but you're partly responsible as a voter for what happens after you cast your vote.

When it comes to Brexit, departure of the UK from the EU has put certain factors that are important in keeping relations in NI relatively harmonious on thin ice. A direct result of the decision that the winning side of voters in the referendum made.

I do care about the world, but I'm not going to be blackmailed or held hostage by the idea that my vote in a free, fair, and democratic referendum to peacefully leave a trading bloc, somehow absolves other people of personal responsiblity. NEVER! Society can't function under those restrictions.

With all due respect, and no offence intended to you, but your point is nonsense.

If I tell you to murder somebody, is your defence in court going to be that somebody told you to do it?

I'm sure the judge will let you walk away a free person.

Apologies, the you as in "you couldn't care less about the wider world" was meant as a generalized you, not you personally, I should have worded the example better.

In the end its your choice if you take that risk, you shouldn't consider it blackmail, more of a risk estimation thing. There is a chance and everyone has to weigh for themselves how likely that chance is or if they care about the possible chance of risk involved. It doesn't absolve the others of responsibility, not in the slightest, but people's decisions did influence the buildup to possible consequences. Now if you should feel guilty? That's a tough question, on the one hand people know that there is a possible risk involved, on the other hand people aren't robots mindlessly driven by a single choice of someone else to commit terrible acts.

Actually the murder thing is a bit ironic, as that could literally be the trial of a hitman or any other planned murder by more than one individual. Doesn't absolve the murderer, but its probably dragging the other person down too.

It's almost like you don't understand what a hard border across Ireland means.

This isn't an excuse to remain, I'm just reminding you that your vote meant something and you wI'll be held to it. It was your decision to take that leap into the unknown. But when the things we warned you about start to happen you can't wash your hands of it.

You've already told us you want brexit at any cost and don't care about the Irish, and that's fine but you need to own it.

Herzlos wrote:
It's almost like you don't understand what a hard border across Ireland means.

DINLT peacefully cast a vote to peacefully leave a trading bloc of 28 independent nations.

Therefore, Herzlos has the right to kill 50 people with a machine gun. Herzlos is not responsible for Herzlos' actions.

It's DINLT's fault for voting...

That is the logic that people are trying to sell me, and I'm not buying it. Never in a million years

No one is trying to say you voted to invade Ireland or trying to blame you for things that happened in the past.

People are using violence as threat against you, they are using it as an argument as to why they believe brexit was a bad idea and that is that it is going to amplify feelings of tension between two communities Irish nationalists and British Unionists, this isn't going to just be a load of paddies killing each other. In the same way some are asking what is the economic risk worth for leaving europe at what body count will some say this wasn't a good idea.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
It's almost like you don't understand what a hard border across Ireland means.

DINLT peacefully cast a vote to peacefully leave a trading bloc of 28 independent nations.

Therefore, Herzlos has the right to kill 50 people with a machine gun. Herzlos is not responsible for Herzlos' actions.

It's DINLT's fault for voting...

That is the logic that people are trying to sell me, and I'm not buying it. Never in a million years

No. That's not what anyone is saying.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
It's almost like you don't understand what a hard border across Ireland means.

DINLT peacefully cast a vote to peacefully leave a trading bloc of 28 independent nations.

Therefore, Herzlos has the right to kill 50 people with a machine gun. Herzlos is not responsible for Herzlos' actions.

It's DINLT's fault for voting...

That is the logic that people are trying to sell me, and I'm not buying it. Never in a million years

The fact that you keep exaggerating and wilfully miss-representing or miss-interpreting what people are saying to make them look unreasonable tells me you are out of reasonable points.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
On June 23rd 2016, the question on the ballot paper asked if Britain should stay in the EU.

It didn't ask if the British military should bomb Dublin and then invade and occupy the Republic of Ireland. ... ...

You don't half come out with some hyperbolic venting.

We can leave the EU, join the EFTA and have a soft border between NI and Eire. Problem solved.

Where is the difficulty?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

This is nothing more than a apology for violence and and the absolving of any responsibility for the individual actions of other people.

Nothing of the sort - this is a statement of the actual weltpolitik in Northern Ireland. And i find it ironic that you are the one talking about other people trying to absolve themselves of their actions.

You chucked the match at the bonfire. Own it.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

This is 2017. You'd have a point if I were voting to send Cromwell's army to Ireland, but it's not the 1650s, and I'm not.

Ironic, a man talking about this being 2017, - earlier In this very thread it was you invoking the spirit of Britain from the past (including Cromwell as an example ) exceptionalism, never mind that damned war criminal Monty in your avatar.

And yes,I have a point despite your insistence on ignoring facts. It's 2017. It's might be not cromwell or the 1650 but don't be so damned delusional in your fanatical obsession with brexit to try and claim that brexit isn't a big bloody deal, not that it's not a whole host of unneeded And unnecessary problems for a particular part of the world that will do nothing more than create more problems and inflame the situation- and bear this in mind, as bad as the problems are in Northern Ireland (it's never far below the surface), things were generally not kicking off. With brexit, that changes, and that's on you and your fellow brexiteers who have callously and uncaringly voted for this. that would not have happened otherwise. That is not so far from you, geographically or culturally.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

The Irish people can't keep living in the past, and I'm not responsbile for William of Orange, the Battle of the Boyne, Wolfe Tone, Michael Collins, Ian Paisley, The Troubles, or any other action that happened either before I were born, or which I had no part of, if it happend during my lifetime.
It's NOT my problem if the Irish people can't live together in peace. Are they or are they not responsible for their own actions?

Us 'living n the past'? Your the one with monty as an avatar, and constantly harkening back to supposed eras of British exceptionalism and empire.and no, it's got nothing to do with 'living in the past' - I merely understand the current reality on the ground - something your are plainly uncomprehending of. And you celebrate the fact which is more insulting.

And it's insulting to say how you are not responsible for any of this plainly are, AS YOU VOTED FOR BREXIT. Don't you dare shrug your shoulders or try and wash your hands of the consequences of your actions or you are nothing more than an appalling hypocrite.

And it very well might be your problem. Like I aid above, it's not 'the Irish people'. It affects the British too. You sir, are not too far away from it. Are they, or are they not responsible for their own actions. Sure, they pull the trigger, but you are responsible for the catalyst. Yours is the match that lit the bonfire, and it wouldn't have kicked off without that match.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

This is why I couldn't give a bucket of horsegak for Northern Ireland.

And that's why your arguments are empty and devoid of any value. How DARE YOU not give any considerations to the consequences of your actions to other people. HOW DARE YOU. I grew up with this on my radio. Every day, listening to another murder, kneecapping, bombing, of Catholics and protestants. These days were thankfully behind us with a tenuous peace and understanding of all sides. Brexit has upended this. If these days come back, it's because people like you ignored the decades of hard work and sacrifices of those who built the peace process from nothing, and chose their own narrow minded petty and selfish concerns whilst ignoring the bigger pictures and all the warnings and concerns that were evident and in full view from day one.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I'm getting blamed for exercising my right to vote to peacefully leave a trading bloc.

You are getting blamed, quite rightfully for the consequences of your actions - it was never just about voting peacefully to leave a trading bloc. The world is bigger and more complicated than that. And please, don't be so simple minded to ever claim this was the case - you were told from day 1 that this was a problem, amongst a host of others. And that it was far bigger than just this. But you didn't want to deal with it. You don't care. People's lives are 'horsegak' to you. You just follow the big flashy headlines and slogans on a bus, and shrug your shoulders and claim a delighted ignorance and indifference to the details, difficulties and consequences of your very actions. Selfish. Short sighted. And Foolish. And we're the ones thst will have to deal with your bloody tantrum at the end of the day.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
On June 23rd 2016, the question on the ballot paper asked if Britain should stay in the EU.

It didn't ask if the British military should bomb Dublin and then invade and occupy the Republic of Ireland. ... ...

You don't half come out with some hyperbolic venting.

We can leave the EU, join the EFTA and have a soft border between NI and Eire. Problem solved.

Where is the difficulty?

I'd be ok with that.

Now we just have to convince the Maybot.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Now we just have to convince the Maybot.

Can we just hide the old biddy away in a nice Hospice somewhere instead?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
And we're being told we shouldn't have voted for Brexit because we don't trust the Irish not to start killing each other again...

That is emotional blackmail towards the people on both sides that voted, and it infantalises the Irish people, because it basically says they need to be watched and they can't be trusted not to start shooting and bombing people.

I cast a vote to peacefully leave a economic union. If groups of people start shooting each other again, then I bear ZERO responsibility for the actions of others.

I will not be blackmailed like that, and I will NEVER bear any responsibility for that if it does happen. Zero, Absolutely fething zero.

We all have to bear the consequences of our actions whether for good or ill. Yes we cannot always control the actions of others, however we can be aware of the consequences of those actions.

If your drunk brother tries to drive away in a car you have two choices, either try and take away the keys or just turn a blind eye and "well I'm happy to keep drinking it's his responsibility" then you are correct in that assertion. However if your brother then kills someone in a car accident, then although your brother is still responsible you have to accept that you increased that probability by not taking action (and in principle if your action been successful prevented catastrophic damage to both sides). If you pay to go across a bridge and then find things delayed by someone wanting to jump off then your approach is to say "just get on with it" I've paid my £ and you are delaying me. The consequences to you are an inconvenience. The consequences to the other people are permanent (many who will just be in the middle)

The moment we stop worrying about the consequences for our actions is the moment, in my view, we become just base animals. We live in something called society because in principle society cares about what happens and that the actions we take if not carefully managed can lead to severe consequences even if we as individuals are not directly responsible for them.

The NI issue is tricky, wounds are starting to heal and people are getting use to a life where they don't have to worry about bombs under cars etc. However wounds are still fresh, it will take 3-4 generations to completely heal so that no one alive remembers the damage it caused, the parents/children lost. The question is whether putting all that at risk is worth what, in the end, is a political issue. You can still have your hard Wrexit in four generations but at least then the risk of violence and bloodshed should be lessened.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Now we just have to convince the Maybot.

Can we just hide the old biddy away in a nice Hospice somewhere instead?

The problem is that she is basically just a sock puppet for the Hard Brexiteers in the Tory Party. We have to figure out how to replace Maybot with someone who isn't controlled by Bozo and chums.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In totally unrelated news, the Daily [Hate] Mail and Katie Hopkins have parted company after another expensive case of damages for her lies and libels,

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
On June 23rd 2016, the question on the ballot paper asked if Britain should stay in the EU.

It didn't ask if the British military should bomb Dublin and then invade and occupy the Republic of Ireland. ... ...

You don't half come out with some hyperbolic venting.

We can leave the EU, join the EFTA and have a soft border between NI and Eire. Problem solved.

Where is the difficulty?

The difficulty? The difficultty is that I, and millions of others, are being robbed of the right to peacefully chose the destiny of Britain's future, because another so called sovereign nation might get upset. Again I ask: is the Republic independent or not? Never in a million years would I dare dictate to the Republic if they should stay in or leave the EU, so I'll be damned if Dublin is laying down the law to us.

This is a textbook example of wanting to have their cake and eat it.

We can't choose to leave the customs union or single market, because people might start killing each other? .

That is blackmail. Political blackmail. If that's the best argument Remain have to offer, then they deserved to lose.

So what's this I hear on the news about a divorce deal being reached?


I'd share news, but I'm on my mobile. So you'll have to search yourselves!

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
And we're being told we shouldn't have voted for Brexit because we don't trust the Irish not to start killing each other again...

That is emotional blackmail towards the people on both sides that voted, and it infantalises the Irish people, because it basically says they need to be watched and they can't be trusted not to start shooting and bombing people.

I cast a vote to peacefully leave a economic union. If groups of people start shooting each other again, then I bear ZERO responsibility for the actions of others.

I will not be blackmailed like that, and I will NEVER bear any responsibility for that if it does happen. Zero, Absolutely fething zero.

We all have to bear the consequences of our actions whether for good or ill. Yes we cannot always control the actions of others, however we can be aware of the consequences of those actions.

If your drunk brother tries to drive away in a car you have two choices, either try and take away the keys or just turn a blind eye and "well I'm happy to keep drinking it's his responsibility" then you are correct in that assertion. However if your brother then kills someone in a car accident, then although your brother is still responsible you have to accept that you increased that probability by not taking action (and in principle if your action been successful prevented catastrophic damage to both sides). If you pay to go across a bridge and then find things delayed by someone wanting to jump off then your approach is to say "just get on with it" I've paid my £ and you are delaying me. The consequences to you are an inconvenience. The consequences to the other people are permanent (many who will just be in the middle)

The moment we stop worrying about the consequences for our actions is the moment, in my view, we become just base animals. We live in something called society because in principle society cares about what happens and that the actions we take if not carefully managed can lead to severe consequences even if we as individuals are not directly responsible for them.

The NI issue is tricky, wounds are starting to heal and people are getting use to a life where they don't have to worry about bombs under cars etc. However wounds are still fresh, it will take 3-4 generations to completely heal so that no one alive remembers the damage it caused, the parents/children lost. The question is whether putting all that at risk is worth what, in the end, is a political issue. You can still have your hard Wrexit in four generations but at least then the risk of violence and bloodshed should be lessened.

So Britain can't leave the EU for at least 50 years in case people in Northern Ireland start shooting each other again?

No liberal democracy on Earth could function under those restrictions.

It's blackmail, pure and simple, and I'm not afraid to call it what it is.