nfe wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Sadly, I'm not a millionaire, and you'll find that most of the middle-class voted Remain. I'm not middle-class either.

I think that everybody, and I mean everybody on dakka, is in complete agreement that most Brexit support came from Britain's working-classes.

Not sure why you thought that a meaningful reply to Thebiggesthat's post, which didn't make reference to your wealth or social class in any way, but people vote against their own interests all the time, so the fact that the bulk of leave voters were working class isn't very meaningful without a wealth of additional data.

jouso wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Common sense but wrong.

Look at the GAT 7 and see how many European countries are in it.

Also the EU has got trade deals in place or coming with countries like South Korea and Canada. Post-Brexit UK will have to negotiate all of those over again.

Yeah, but Kilkrazy, you know as well as I do that nothing stays the same for ever. As Asia and Brazil continues to develop, these countries will eventually overtake Europe in terms of raw economic clout.

1.- is, of course, that by the time those countries' citizens have similar purchasing power as Europe everyone in this board will probably be dead.

2.- is that the EU as a good head start (at least a decade) on having deals with those countries. Better deals, too, because of clout and leverage the UK will lack post-Brexit.

It's an almost textbook definition of shooting yourself in the foot then try to run a marathon.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
For all aspects of the political spectrum. You may want to ask for clarification and evidence whenever you read the following statements in someone's political musings...

1. Everyone knows

2. It's common knowledge

3. Stands to reason

4. It's just common sense

5. It's obvious that

6. Tells it like it is (this is a great time to play a quick game of 'spot the bare faced liar')

Chances are they're signs of someone trying to present wild opinion as popular opinion, and from there trying to make it a 'fact'.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You're also making the mistake of assuming that growth numbers will stay constant ad infinitum. Brazil, China, India etc. are growing rapidly because they had, and still have, a really low standard to start with. It's much easier to have double digit GDP growth when the GDP gonsists of a stick and two leaves than when you're dealing with advanced electronics.

Also, you'd think there's been enough instances of being laughably wrong in this thread that common sense would have been brought behind the proverbial shed and taken out of its misery by now. It's getting to the point where "common sense" is now short-hand for "I haven't actually got a clue, but I'll argue my point anyway!"

So when I say that most of the world's population doesn't live in Europe, please tell me which part of that is wrong.

When I say that Asia's economic growth is outstripping that of Europe's, please tell me which part of that is wrong.

It's gotten to the stage where I can't even say a basic fact such as most of the world lives outside Europe, without you querying it.

It's been a familiar pattern from you these past months. If I say grass is green, you say no. if I say snow is white, you say it's black.

I'm giving you notice now that I'm putting you on ignore. I no longer wish to engage in conversation with you.

Good day to you sir.

 r_squared wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
There does appear to be growing demand for a second referendum now that more information is being presented and the realities and lies have been exposed. I watched a few clips from channel 4 about Leave voters reactions to the 50bn, and a good third said they'd change their vote now if they could.

I think this is somewhat optimistic, as the source below shows. But it's also irrelevant. The referendum that got us into this situation had nothing to do with public demand for one, but instead internal Tory politics. If there is a second referendum it will happen for much the same reasons.

YouGov wrote:Remainers beware: people who think Britain was wrong to vote to leave the EU do not necessarily think the referendum result should be reverse

In a recent YouGov poll for The Times, there appeared to be good news for those who want Britain to remain in the European Union and bad news for those who favour Brexit.

After 16 months of tracking Bregret (or rather, thus far, the relative lack of it), a record high of 47% said they thought Britain was wrong to vote leave the EU, coupled with a record low of 42% saying we were right to do so.

Each individual poll has a margin of error so it is important not to take one set of results out of context. In our most recent poll the numbers have reverted back slightly, with just a 3% gap between right and wrong to leave. However, when you look at the last few months together the trend does seem to be towards slightly more people thinking Britain was wrong to vote to leave the EU.

The average of YouGov’s five most recent polls shows 43% saying we were right to vote to leave and 45% saying we were wrong. By contrast, on average the first five polls of this year saw 46% saying we were right to leave and 42% wrong.



But before anyone gets carried away with the possible implications of this shift, it is important to note that thinking Britain was wrong to vote to leave is not the same as thinking the referendum result should be reversed.

Some Remain voters don’t like the destination, but have strapped in for the ride

In a recent poll we asked Britons which of four different routes they would prefer the Brexit process take. Four in ten (40%) wanted to continue with Brexit on current negotiating terms, whilst 12% wanted Britain to seek a “softer” Brexit – meaning a “go ahead” majority of 52%.

Just 18% wanted a second referendum and a further 14% wanted Brexit abandoned completely, a total of 32% for an “attempt to reverse” Brexit. The remaining 16% said they didn’t know.



The main reason there are so many more people wanting Brexit to proceed rather than halted is because some Remain voters, though still thinking that leaving is the wrong decision, believe that the result of the referendum should be respected. (Previous YouGov research on this group labelled them “Re-leavers”). For example, whilst eight in ten (79%) Leave voters pick one of the “go ahead” options, so do 28% of Remain voters.

This might be changing, though.

Over the past few months, Remain voters’ views have started swinging back towards wanting Britain to stay in the EU. While in June a majority of Remain voters (51%) supported a “go ahead” option, by the end of September this had fallen to 28%. Over the same period the proportion of Remain voters backing an “attempt to reverse” approach rose from 44% to 61%.



As we get further and further away from the referendum itself more people might start to think it is legitimate to try to stop Brexit, and eventually there could be a majority that want to stop Brexit.

But for the moment the public still believe that Brexit means Brexit.

Source, from 27 October this year.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

nfe wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Sadly, I'm not a millionaire, and you'll find that most of the middle-class voted Remain. I'm not middle-class either.

I think that everybody, and I mean everybody on dakka, is in complete agreement that most Brexit support came from Britain's working-classes.

Not sure why you thought that a meaningful reply to Thebiggesthat's post, which didn't make reference to your wealth or social class in any way, but people vote against their own interests all the time, so the fact that the bulk of leave voters were working class isn't very meaningful without a wealth of additional data.

I'm all right jack commonly refers to the well to do who've done well for themselves and pulled up the ladder behind them.

Baby-boomers are unfairly seen as living the good life on high value pensions, whilst sitting in ex-council homes in London worth millions, which they were able to buy for £5 back in the 1980s or something. And they all went to Oxford as well, and got grants of £50,000 a year whilst they were there etc etc

The above is the common stereotype abut the baby boomers these days: most of Britain is all living in cardboard boxes, whilst they're living the good life at our expense.

 welshhoppo wrote:
And everyone says the next generation is worse than the one before it.


The baby boomers were luckier and they no doubt believed that the previous generation was better off and they were doing everything to prevent their own growth.

nfe wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

nfe wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Sadly, I'm not a millionaire, and you'll find that most of the middle-class voted Remain. I'm not middle-class either.

I think that everybody, and I mean everybody on dakka, is in complete agreement that most Brexit support came from Britain's working-classes.

Not sure why you thought that a meaningful reply to Thebiggesthat's post, which didn't make reference to your wealth or social class in any way, but people vote against their own interests all the time, so the fact that the bulk of leave voters were working class isn't very meaningful without a wealth of additional data.

I'm all right jack commonly refers to the well to do who've done well for themselves and pulled up the ladder behind them.

Nope. It quite specifically refers to people who put believe everything is hunky dory so long as they perceive their own circumstances to be so. It doesn't matter whether they're millionaires or impoverished, only that they are contented.

Baby-boomers are unfairly seen as living the good life on high value pensions, whilst sitting in ex-council homes in London worth millions, which they were able to buy for £5 back in the 1980s or something. And they all went to Oxford as well, and got grants of £50,000 a year whilst they were there etc etc

The above is the common stereotype abut the baby boomers these days: most of Britain is all living in cardboard boxes, whilst they're living the good life at our expense.

Nobody thinks this. Lots of people do rightly observe that the baby-boomer generation are vastly wealthier than, and have consistently voted to remove opportunities their generation had from, the following generations.

You really need to stop presenting stereotypes that barely exist as dominant narratives.

Mario wrote:

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Deadnight wrote:
and I'd prefer a European army to the damned warmongering NATO regime)

What makes you think the EU won't be just as warmongering?

Big military industrial complexes once established need to find ways to justify their continued existence. And the EU like most Empires is expansionist. It is inevitable that the EU will find itself in conflict with other nations.

It's just less bloody to sell warmongering equipment to third parties and let them blow each other apart than to start wars yourself. That's at least what german arms manufacturers are doing.

 Witzkatz wrote:
I'm pretty sure there was sarcastic disapproval in Mario's post. Like many Western countries, Germany profits from selling arms of all kinds to Saudi Arabia and a few other questionable buyers, but I haven't yet talked to anybody actually being happy about German arms being used in opaque, complex, multi-sided and every changing middle eastern conflicts.

Thebiggesthat wrote:
.....
You may as well hit your head repeatedly against a brick wall. He reads what he wants to read, and replies accordingly.

It's this behavior from others of his age, that are fueling the growing divisions in this country.

MarkNorfolk wrote:

Thebiggesthat wrote:
.....
You may as well hit your head repeatedly against a brick wall. He reads what he wants to read, and replies accordingly.

It's this behavior from others of his age, that are fueling the growing divisions in this country.

I am a year younger, and I don't think like that at all.

 welshhoppo wrote:
And everyone says the next generation is worse than the one before it.


The baby boomers were luckier and they no doubt believed that the previous generation was better off and they were doing everything to prevent their own growth.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Previous generation had nowt. They set up the NHS, and ensured all the things their kids then took away from future generations.

Do....do you actually live in the real world?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Like I said earlier, do I really need to provide a source that says most of the world's population lives outside Europe?

Is it not fair to use a term such as: it's common knowledge that most of the world's population lives outside Europe.

I mean, come on. What do people want from me? A round the world tour?

 Whirlwind wrote:
It's an interesting point that this generation is actually against Wrexit. It really is only the early retirees that (e..g baby boomers) that prefer it. There is thinking that the WWII generation remember the issues that started the whole problems and how it referendums/anti immigration messages/'the world's being mean to us' mentality was used by populists to gain power and retain it. In comparison that is what the Tories are doing, but in a less dramatic style, by killing off debate, using old out dated legislation to force through what they want etc. There is an argument that Baby boomers in general (not all) benefited from a period of sustained growth but and continue to want the best for themselves regardless because of the way they vote (for example even talk about touching the pensions is tantamount to political suicide for the Tories, but happy for the young to indebted for a lifetime etc). It basically comes down to voting what they think is best for themselves (which is by no means prevalent to just that age group, I've heard my brother say the same) but there does seem to be increasing awareness of the damage that causes in the younger generation (likely because they are more exposed to it).

 AndrewC wrote:
I wonder just how many people here actually lived through the troubles? And I mean that in a way that they were actively, cognitivly aware of what was going on?

Unless you are old enough I would ask that you not go slinging accusations about.

I honestly hope that there is not a reoccurence of the violence, because those were very dark days, very much reenacted with the persecution of minority muslims in other countries. However if there is, it is not the sole province of Brexiteers to take responsibility and blame for this. There are two parties to these negotiations and both sides need to take blame. Both parties need to take a long hard look at themselves. Notice has been served to leave the EU. It is then up to both parties to create a solution. Ireland and the EU sticking their heads in the sand saying that its up the the UK to find the solution is deluding themselves. Failure on their side to find that medium solutions puts the blame as squarely on their shoulders as those who voted for Brexit.

Cheers

Andrew

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Our economy is based on low wages. People are paid ‘affordably’ low wages only because food is so cheap, because those prices are based on fruit pickers paid buttons. You could get fruit pickers in the UK if you paid a fair wage, but the food prices would rise. Similarly farmers could be paid properly for milk instead of being ripped off by the supermarkets. Don’t blame UK workers for not wanting to be paid gak wages, or the farmers, or the migrants coming here to live ten to a house to work in a field. Blame the corporate bosses of supermarkets effectiv it running a cartel to depress food prices and pressure food suppliers into taking minimal prices for product.

Ultimately food prices would rise if workers and farmers paid properly and expose just how poor the minimum wage really is. The gulf between the rich and poor has grown under successive governments, and middle earners still support the payment of tax credits to subsidise corporations paying low wages.

Things have to change, everyone lower down needs to earn more and it could be done if government wasn’t hand in glove with these corporations kissing their ass.

 Steve steveson wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
And everyone says the next generation is worse than the one before it.


The baby boomers were luckier and they no doubt believed that the previous generation was better off and they were doing everything to prevent their own growth.

I don’t know what baby boomers believed when they were young, but there is plenty of objective evidence that anyone under 40 now is worse off in almost every way that the over 55s. Wealth, housing, standards of living, pensions, job security, even life expectancy. These are not subjective feelings, they are objective facts. I will work longer, for less, to pay out more and die younger than my parants.

 monarda wrote:


Obviously with an anonymous ballot it isn't possible to know with certainty how a particular demographic voted, but here's the final YouGov poll reweighted to produce the actual outcome. It ought to be broadly correct with the specific potentially out a few percentage points.



I can't find anywhere that breaks down the over 65 result, apart from some pre-poll speculation from a pollster that voters 75+ were less hostile (but still pro-Brexit) than those younger than them.

Herzlos wrote:
28,000 increase in outward migrants too.

Probably explains why apples are rotting in fields unpicked.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:

Ultimately food prices would rise if workers and farmers paid properly and expose just how poor the minimum wage really is. The gulf between the rich and poor has grown under successive governments, and middle earners still support the payment of tax credits to subsidise corporations paying low wages.

 Knockagh wrote:


Absolutely. Unfortunately continued agri subsidies from Brussels have allowed food to be produced at cost price. The cost of production is met by sales and the farmer picks up he subsidy as his salary..... on a good year, a bad year means he is eating into the subsidy to survive. People think agri subs benefit the farmer but reality is the supermarkets gain most. They get a cheap product which they can massively mark up because the farmer will continue to farm because of the sub. Vicious circle with only one winner.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Paying farmers more drives inflation, as the wage increase has to come from somewhere. That leads to increased food prices, which means everyone else wants higher wage increases to cope with rising food prices and so on creating an evil circle.