UK & EU Politics Thread

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**Herzlos**

Do_I_Not_Like_That 724548 9752533 wrote:
I really need to check up on ... before I make sweeping statements like this.

You do. Your enthusiasm is great and you make some great points but you could do with paying more attention to the details and reality. I hope that doesn't sound too bitchy? I can't tell any more.

**Whirlwind**

r_squared wrote:
AndrewGPaul wrote:
reds8n wrote:
..

Spoiler:

So May and Bojo but no Corbyn huh ?

That ... gies me the boak.

Popular searches provided by Pornhub.
Who goes searching for septagenarian wotsits with a toupee in order to bang one out?

I'm a bit confused, why are we looking at 2016 popular searches. Given the May had just stepped into Downing Street, Boris the Clown for some bizarre reason was put into the FO it's not surprising they were more popular searches. I'd be more interested to the see the changes in the 2017 searches.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Whirlwind wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
No disrespect to anybody, but I'm more concerned with climate change than trade deals, WTO, May, Barnier, Juncker et al.

Bad heat waves, drought in Southern Europe, crop failure, and lack of fresh water, are what's in store for the EU nations,

and it's not much better for Britain with rising sea levels.

Sea levels will rise, but the rest is largely uncertain. One potential theory is the gulf stream will move south because of extra cold water from the poles. That would make the UK more akin to what Canada experiences at the same latitude. The EU would then get mild and very wet (especially on the coast). We simply don't know how everything will pan out and that's the great risk with climate change. We are charging headlong, in reality ignoring the experts with a blind hope it will be all right on the night. What is probably likely to happen though is that it will generate mass migration that makes what is going on now seem like nothing.

This what I'm saying: the UK needs to start preparing ASAP. To hell with HS2, get the flood defences fixed.

From a EU point of view, if more migrants are headed their way, especially from sub-Sahara Africa (who'll suffer terribly from drought this century

) then they'd better have a contingency plan in place.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Whirlwind wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
No disrespect to anybody, but I'm more concerned with climate change than trade deals, WTO, May, Barnier, Juncker et al.

Bad heat waves, drought in Southern Europe, crop failure, and lack of fresh water, are what's in store for the EU nations,

and it's not much better for Britain with rising sea levels.

Sea levels will rise, but the rest is largely uncertain. One potential theory is the gulf stream will move south because of extra cold water from the poles. That would make the UK more akin to what Canada experiences at the same latitude. The EU would then get mild and very wet (especially on the coast). We simply don't know how everything will pan out and that's the great risk with climate change. We are charging headlong, in reality ignoring the experts with a blind hope it will be all right on the night. What is probably likely to happen though is that it will generate mass migration that makes what is going on now seem like nothing.

This what I'm saying: the UK needs to start preparing ASAP. To hell with HS2, get the flood defences fixed.

From a EU point of view, if more migrants are headed their way, especially from sub-Sahara Africa (who'll suffer terribly from drought this century

) then they'd better have a contingency plan in place.

**GoatboyBeta**

Aaaand Green is out http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42434802

The porn on the computer was IMO icky but not something to make a huge fuss about. However as is often the case its the cover up and lies that are the real issue. Especially when he's also accused of using his position to make "unwanted advances" to women.

**Whirlwind**

r_squared wrote:

WTO rules are a base framework for those to use who haven't negotiated a better deal, we shouldn't be relying on them for very long at all if possible. They don't cover a huge amount of legislation and agreement wrt to air travel, science and security for example. It will take a huge amount of effort and expense to sort out those deals and agreements all over again from scratch, and we will very much be the weaker cousin if we come to sort out a deal with the EU after spending time operating under WTO rules. It really should be avoided, which is why the vast majority of other nations try to avoid relying on them solely.

It's not as simple as this. We still have to negotiate with the WTO to agree the terms we go back to them under.

https://www.monckton.com/brexit-mean-uk-wto/

In the light of its co-existence with the EU in the WTO, the rights, commitments and concessions of the UK under WTO rules are currently tied in with those of the EU. Following Brexit, the UK will no longer be covered by the common schedules which the EU submitted for all its Member States. The application, therefore, of WTO law on the UK following Brexit will depend on resetting the terms of the British membership in the Organisation. This would be the case across a wide range of economic activities covered by the WTO agreements. The schedules of concessions and commitments on market access, for instance, as well as the UK’s list of exemptions from the MFN treatment obligation would have to be reset and resubmitted. They would also have to be accepted by the other WTO parties.

In the light of the above, a process of negotiation would ensue between the UK and the WTO parties. Given that the existing arrangements constitute part of a package deal, resetting their terms would not be a straightforward exercise: it would entail a complex process which could take time and the successful outcome of which would depend on the political will of the other WTO parties. This point has been made by the WTO Director-General Roberto Azevêdo on a number of occasions (for instance, in his interview in the Financial Times on 26 May 2016).

The WTO rules have been viewed as a safe fall back option for the trade relations between the UK and the rest of the world following Brexit. The application of these rules, however, would not be automatic. The process of resetting and negotiating the terms of British membership in the WTO would require considerable work.

**r_squared**

GoatboyBeta wrote:
Aaaand Green is out http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42434802 The porn on the computer was IMO icky but not something to make a huge fuss about. However as is often the case its the cover up and lies that are the real issue. Especially when he's also accused of using his position to make "unwanted advances" to women.

Didn't David Davis threaten to quit if Green was ousted? Could be very interesting if he does.
Vote of no confidence and GE by next year?

If that happens, I genuinely believe we could be looking at a truly socialist labour govt, as people go, what the feth, we're screwed anyway, might as well give the other lot a go.

**Whirlwind**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Sea levels will rise, but the rest is largely uncertain. One potential theory is the gulf stream will move south because of extra cold water from the poles. That would make the UK more akin to what Canada experiences at the same latitude. The EU would then get mild and very wet (especially on the coast). We simply don't know how everything will pan out and that's the great risk with climate change. We are charging headlong, in reality ignoring the experts with a blind hope it will be all right on the night. What is probably likely to happen though is that it will generate mass migration that makes what is going on now seem like nothing.

This what I'm saying: the UK needs to start preparing ASAP. To hell with HS2, get the flood defences fixed.

From a EU point of view, if more migrants are headed their way, especially from sub-Sahara Africa (who'll suffer terribly from drought this century ) then they'd better have a contingency plan in place.

If all the icesheets melt not even barriers will help. You are talking metres here. That means not only coastal sections, but every god damn river will rise as well (especially near the sea). London is particularly vulnerable. It doesn't also help that the south east is slowly rebounding after the last ice age. The ice over Scotland pushed down Scotland but raised the SE. Now the ice has gone it is in reverse. It takes a long time as rock doesn't relax very quickly but it's still happening. If you get this and extreme cold, you might also find it is the UK populace migrating!

As for migrants it won't be just an EU issue, it will be a global issue. The UK won't avoid it either.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

r_squared wrote:
GoatboyBeta wrote:
Aaaand Green is out http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42434802 The porn on the computer was IMO icky but not something to make a huge fuss about. However as is often the case its the cover up and lies that are the real issue. Especially when he's also accused of using his position to make "unwanted advances" to women.

Didn't David Davis threaten to quit if Green was ousted? Could be very interesting if he does.
Vote of no confidence and GE by next year?

I think you'll find he does the typical Tory thing. Do the complete opposite of what they promised....

**Howard A Treesong**

GoatboyBeta wrote:
Aaaand Green is out http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42434802 The porn on the computer was IMO icky but not something to make a huge fuss about. However as is often the case its the cover up and lies that are the real issue. Especially when he's also accused of using his position to make "unwanted advances" to women.

Other than he’s massively wasting work time downloading porn. Who the hell does than on company time, so to speak. And then he continues to deny having anything to do with it but really as explanations go that isn’t good enough.

**Steve steveson**

Far be it from me to defend a Tory MP, but “company time” or “wasting work time” isn’t really an issue for MPs. It’s not a job with a set of defined responsibilities and goals like you and me. Really he did nothing illigal and apparently MPs are not bound by IT rules (although this seems wrong, but presumably the law is all they have to worry about) so really he did nothing wrong. People may not like that he was looking at porn, but that’s not illigal and something I would guess almost everyone here does.

**Kilkrazy**

Indeed. However, the key point is that he had to go because of the misdemeanour of being found out lying about it.

This is bad news for May, as Green was a long-standing friend and ally.

**Steve steveson**

Yes. I can’t see this government lasting very much longer. May just doesn't have the leadership or management skills to hold all of this together. She’s rearranging deckchairs at the the moment in an attempt to hide the iceberg. All it will take is one big scandal or another disagreement in the Tory party and they will tear themselves apart. The only those she has is that no one exploits any issues for fear of being branded a traitor by the red tops.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Howard A Treesong wrote:
GoatboyBeta wrote:
Aaaand Green is out http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42434802 The porn on the computer was IMO icky but not something to make a huge fuss about. However as is often the case its the cover up and lies that are the real issue. Especially when he's also accused of using his position to make "unwanted advances" to women.

Other than he’s massively wasting work time downloading porn. Who the hell does than on company time, so to speak. And then he continues to deny having anything to do with it but really as explanations go that isn’t good enough.

More importantly, if I was watching bongo on my work PC, I'd be out on my ear before I knew what was happening, as would anyone, except perhaps those paid to edit gentleman's relish videos, on account it'd be really difficult to do their job without it.

Why shouldn't any MP doing the same be fired?

**reds8n**

GoatboyBeta wrote:
Aaaand Green is out http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42434802 The porn on the computer was IMO icky but not something to make a huge fuss about. However as is often the case its the cover up and lies that are the real issue. Especially when he's also accused of using his position to make "unwanted advances" to women.

Has he released a statement yet ?

.... or is he planning on knocking one out later ..?

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5186763/david-davis-wont-quit-over-damian-greens-sacking-despite-threatening-he-would-walk-out-in-protest-at-police-leaks/

David Davis WON’T quit over Damian Green’s sacking despite threatening he would walk out in protest at police leaks

David Davis being untruthful ?!

Such a bold principled stance is bound to be advantageous when he's negotiating on our behalf in the future.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

They really are an absolute shower. I would say 'tcoch, typical Tories', but I think that would be genuinely unfair to the non-Parliamentary Tory Party (just because I don't agree with you, doesn't necessarily mean you're wrong).

But the current Government just seem singularly incapable of getting anything done without messing it right up.

**Kilkrazy**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Howard A Treesong wrote:
GoatboyBeta wrote:
Aaaand Green is out http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42434802 The porn on the computer was IMO icky but not something to make a huge fuss about. However as is often the case its the cover up and lies that are the real issue. Especially when he's also accused of using his position to make "unwanted advances" to women.

Other than he’s massively wasting work time downloading porn. Who the hell does than on company time, so to speak. And then he continues to deny having anything to do with it but really as explanations go that isn’t good enough.

More importantly, if I was watching bongo on my work PC, I'd be out on my ear before I knew what was happening, as would anyone, except perhaps those paid to edit gentleman's relish videos, on account it'd be really difficult to do their job without it.

Why shouldn't any MP doing the same be fired?

An MP is responsible to his constituents and to Parliament as a whole. He isn't an employee of a company to be hired and fired.

**Compel**

One thing that May does seem to be doing alright with is fostering new talent.

I think 10-15 years from now, whatever happens to the tories short term they'll be better off thanks to May.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Really?

Because with the mess they're making of Brexit, and no convenient scapegoat in site, I'd say in 10-15 years they much just be coming back from the political wilderness.

**r_squared**

https://inews.co.uk/news/exclusive-uk-demands-secrecy-brexit-trade-talks-us/

Following on from my concerns about US bluster, now it seems that Liam Fox is attempting to ensure that UK/US trade deals are conducted in secret until 4 years after their completion. So comfortably into Labour's term of office.

That does not bode well at all for the NHS, amongst other things.

We should be very concerned indeed, the only reason for such secrecy would be because they know that the public would not accept what they are doing, and we absolutely should not just trust Liam Fox to not feth this up. We need to demand that parliament has oversight, if we can manage it for Brexit, we can manage it elsewhere.

**reds8n**

.. wonder why 4 years ..?

Might be POTUS term related perhaps ?

.... don't think there's a statute of limitation for anything of 4 years is there ?

https://www.portofrotterdam.com/en/news-and-press-releases/brexit-and-port-of-rotterdam

The United Kingdom, after Russia, is the second country of origin for Rotterdam in terms of volume for goods shipped. After Germany, Belgium and Russia, the United Kingdom is fourth in terms of total throughput with a 40 million tonnes (8.5% of the Rotterdam total throughput). British import from Rotterdam consists mainly of Roll-on / Roll-off (RoRo) cargo, containers and liquid bulk. The British export to the Netherlands consists mainly of liquid bulk (especially North Sea oil) and shortsea and RoRo cargo.

As a result of the Brexit, maintaining the quality and capacity of customs will be the highest priority for the Port of Rotterdam. According to the Dutch customs authorities, as of 30 March 2019 more than a hundred well-trained extra customs officers will be required in the Rotterdam Rijnmond area. In addition to this, extra inspections and inspection points for the Dutch food and consumer product safety authority (NVWA) are needed. Furthermore the necessary additional veterinarians to execute the inspections will be a major challenge as well. Of course, this will also apply to customs in the UK. It remains to be seen whether customs capacity from 2019 can handle all the extra declarations.

Customs declarations may increase waiting times, subsequently increasing costs for freight forwarders, operators and terminal operators as well as creating additional congestion in the port area. Short sea and RoRo terminals expect available waiting space for lorries to be limited. This will be one of the major challenges for Port of Rotterdam authority to facilitate. Not only space at the terminal but also waiting times may have an impact on the use of the public infrastructure and could result in congestion on the route (for example on the highway A15) to terminals.

Can't wait for Operation Stack : Redux to kick down here in Kent.

**Herzlos**

r_squared wrote:
Following on from my concerns about US bluster, now it seems that Liam Fox is attempting to ensure that UK/US trade deals are conducted in secret until 4 years after their completion. So comfortably into Labour's term of office.

Sounds a lot like what the US were trying to do with TPP - Keep it private until it's too late to do anything about it. Because they know it won't go down well with, well, anybody but US companies.

The 4 years is presumably related to how long it'd take to enact some of the changes - harder to roll things back if it's already started.

Everyone who even mentioned sovereignty should be screaming at their MPs about this.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

@reds8n.

We on the Brexit side can also post some links

UK to sign new defence treaty with Poland. This is exactly what I was talking about yesterday

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42432390

Welcome economic boost for Britain's second city as it's selected to host the 2022 Commonwealth Games.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/commonwealth-games/42437441

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Really?

Because with the mess they're making of Brexit, and no convenient scapegoat in site, I'd say in 10-15 years they much just be coming back from the political wilderness.

The Brexit bill passed another hurdle last night in The Commons. It's still on.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Howard A Treesong wrote:
GoatboyBeta wrote:
Aaaand Green is out http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42434802 The porn on the computer was IMO icky but not something to make a huge fuss about. However as is often the case its the cover up and lies that are the real issue. Especially when he's also accused of using his position to make "unwanted advances" to women.

Other than he’s massively wasting work time downloading porn. Who the hell does than on company time, so to speak. And then he continues to deny having anything to do with it but really as explanations go that isn’t good enough.

I freely admit that I'm no expert on IT, and this could be complete horsegak, but somebody, somewhere, was saying that websites can often have dodgy thumbnails embedded in them, and that even if it's a normal website, you may inadvertently pick the thumbnails up.

Like I say, I'm no IT man, so is this possible? Is Green possibly innocent on that account?

Still deserved to go for false statements, mind you.

**reds8n**

..defence treaty with Poland.... went well in 39 eh ?

Birmingham has been named as host city for the 2022 Commonwealth Games - the most expensive sports event to be held in Britain since the London Olympics.

The city's was the only bid submitted to the Commonwealth Games Federation (CGF) by the deadline of 30 September, after it was chosen ahead of Liverpool as Britain's candidate.

After Birmingham's bid was initially deemed to not meet the necessary criteria, previously interested cities such as Victoria in Canada and Kuala Lumpur in Malaysia were given another two months to apply, but no bids materialised.

what a triumph indeed.

Scraped through despite being the only entrant.

.. Still, good for B'ham.

Whilst I don't really give a flying feth about the games or atheltics in general, I'm pleased for those who do and despite being South East based am quite happy it's gone somewhere other than London.

.... do Villa or b'ham city need new stadiums perchance ..?

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Really?

Because with the mess they're making of Brexit, and no convenient scapegoat in site, I'd say in 10-15 years they much just be coming back from the political wilderness.

The Brexit bill passed another hurdle last night in The Commons. It's still on.

I was meaning the general pig's ear they're making of it.

We won't pay a penny! Well, ok. We will. £40,000,000,000.

We'll get a better deal on everything and it'll be easy! Well, ok. No we won't. This is going to be long and drawn out, and our self inflicted 'red lines', only put in place to placate the most swivel eyed amongst the populace are actually boxing us into a corner.

They need us more than we need them! Well, ok. No they don't. Please trade with us. Please? Pretty please with a cherry on top? Go on, we'll be your best friend.

It's a bad idea from the get go, and they're making it worse and worse. Tory Infighting and a dishonesty, Tory supporting media lead to the vote and the outcome. Lie upon lie was spouted, and rubbish campaigns were fought. And now because people in areas of high unemployment think it's all to do with the EU and migrants taking their jobs (and not, you know, an uncaring Westminster), we're about to get a good seeing to politically.

All because Tories. And the idiots have no scape goat for when it all inevitably blows up in our faces.

**Herzlos**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I freely admit that I'm no expert on IT, and this could be complete horsegak, but somebody, somewhere, was saying that websites can often have dodgy thumbnails embedded in them, and that even if it's a normal website, you may inadvertently pick the thumbnails up.

Like I say, I'm no IT man, so is this possible? Is Green possibly innocent on that account?

Still deserved to go for false statements, mind you.

It's possible, in that any website can contain any image which needs to be downloaded even if it's not visible. But why would they do that?

Arkams razor and all - you don't get rack up that much naughty content by getting trolled from genuine websites. So he's either lying about that, or been on, I dunno, warez sites or something.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Herzlos wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I freely admit that I'm no expert on IT, and this could be complete horsegak, but somebody, somewhere, was saying that websites can often have dodgy thumbnails embedded in them, and that even if it's a normal website, you may inadvertently pick the thumbnails up.

Like I say, I'm no IT man, so is this possible? Is Green possibly innocent on that account?

Still deserved to go for false statements, mind you.

It's possible, in that any website can contain any image which needs to be downloaded even if it's not visible. But why would they do that?

Arkams razor and all - you don't get rack up that much naughty content by getting trolled from genuine websites. So he's either lying about that, or been on, I dunno, warez sites or something.

Agreed, but the whole situation is a mess, a dumpster fire. A public inquiry needs to be conducted for the following reasons:

Police raiding the Commons without a search warrant.

The police need to be slapped down hard for this.

Police incompetence with the original investigation.

Retired police officers breaching their own code by hanging onto files and evidence.

Gak poor IT security at the heart of Government

A minister of her Majesty's government disgracing the office with his actions

Let's shine the light of a public. inquiry on this wretched nest of vipers.

**Howard A Treesong**

Yet if some police hadn’t wrongfully revealed these things Damian Green’s deception would never have been uncovered. Sometimes you have to break a few rules to publicly expose frauds and liars. Otherwise they can hide and their allies sweep it under the carpet so that they are never held to account.

**welshhoppo**

Howard A Treesong wrote:
Yet if some police hadn’t wrongfully revealed these things Damian Green’s deception would never have been uncovered. Sometimes you have to break a few rules to publicly expose frauds and liars. Otherwise they can hide and their allies sweep it under the carpet so that they are never held to account.

That's the start of a slippery slope that only ends in 1984.

You need to do this things officially and clear. Breaking eggs and omlettes have no place with the police.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Panama Papers as well.

Those weren't legitimately exposed. But look at the crime and dodginess that action has exposed.

**r_squared**

Howard A Treesong wrote:
Yet if some police hadn’t wrongfully revealed these things Damian Green’s deception would never have been uncovered. Sometimes you have to break a few rules to publicly expose frauds and liars. Otherwise they can hide and their allies sweep it under the carpet so that they are never held to account.

Don't get me wrong, I don't care at all if another Tory gets exposed as a liar and booted from office, that's great, but, he hadn't broken the law or ministerial code until he started lying after they were revealed. It's almost like a honey trap, revealing something mildly scandalous in order to see if he'll trip himself up, which he did.

The thing is, we expect and know our politicians to lie to us, they do it ll the time, and in ways sometimes so blatant it takes your breath away, look at Trump for example. Why do we tolerate this, or make excuses I wonder?

Personally I think our Govt and Parliament is in need of total and complete reform, from the ground up. The archaic traditions and ceremony seem important, but are wholly inappropriate if the members cannot act with integrity and with the best interests of the country first and foremost.

I would start by relocating the whole Government to the Midlands, a new Parliament with a new, non-adverserial setup, proportional representationand re-drawing of the constituency borders to reflect current populations, with a mandate to re-draw them every 10 years to keep current.
A second house of representatives to be created, with the hereditary Lords removed. We are a 21st century country, starting out on a new path, and we're saddled with archaic and inefficient Govt because of tradition, it needs to change, and many MPs actually agree with it too.

Also, no more referenda, ever. If you want a voice, use your elected parliamentary representative.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

I think people are missing the point here: if the police are doing this to MPs and Government ministers, then what chance has Joe Public got when dealing with the Police?

The police had no business raiding Green's office, and Labour should have been brought to book for it, and they also tried to stich up Andrew Mitchell.

Now, I don't give two hoots for Tory MPs, but I do care very strongly about the Rule of Law.

After last week's rape trial debacle, the Police are in serious need of a hard slap from the government.