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My opposition to the EU is well know, but given the sheer ineptitude of the government, the presence of utter buffoons in the cabinet, and a PM so out of her depth, she'd struggle in a shallow puddle,
a Norway/EFTA/Liechtenstein option may be our best bet to salvage something from this fiasco. The golden opportunity of Brexit has been squandered by people who couldn't organise a funeral in a graveyard,
so we may need a Norway style deal to buy us some time...
Naturally, I reserve the right to backtrack on this at any time...
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
But a Norway style deal is fundamentally worse in every way to just staying in. Why not just stay in until you have a competent government who can actually deliver? (which will be never if they don't learn to actually evaluate stuff to see if it is feasible or even true before they promise it to the UK public)
During that time you can also be pushing for reform from within, which would be easier if people elected MEPs who will actually turn up and contribute and form relationships with their colleagues from other countries. You know, get widespread support rolling for reforms by co-operation with other member representatives, like how every political establishment works.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/30 12:34:19
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Why not just stay in until you have a competent government who can actually deliver?
I'm not waiting until 2550 for Brexit!
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Why not just stay in until you have a competent government who can actually deliver?
I'm not waiting until 2550 for Brexit!
Is Brexit really Brexit if you end up abiding for the same rules and paying into the EU while having no say in the whole thing?
We have a governing class who clearly can't govern, and a British population who have gotten the government they deserve, by way of voting for these fethers year after year.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/30 12:51:01
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Brexit remains to have been sold entirely on a pack of lies by hard right shysters.
Nobody can define what we want from it, likely because of so many lies being spun in order to sell it in the first place.
Many now recognise this. Some want to apply the breaks, some want to reverse, but a dangerous core of absolute lunatics demand full steam ahead straight over the cliff, because braaaaahn people.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Because Brexit for too many has become a cult, rather than something to be carefully considered.
One need only look at how the gutter press report on it to see that.
I could say similar things about die-hard EU supporters.
And you'd be wrong. It's not the Remain supporters that have led the UK into a quagmire of awful options despite warnings from people who spend their entire working careers working with questions like these.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Brexit remains to have been sold entirely on a pack of lies by hard right shysters.
Nobody can define what we want from it, likely because of so many lies being spun in order to sell it in the first place.
Many now recognise this. Some want to apply the breaks, some want to reverse, but a dangerous core of absolute lunatics demand full steam ahead straight over the cliff, because braaaaahn people.
Macron and Juncker's speeches clearly show that Remain wasn't a vote for the status quo, either.
The EU has always been on a trajectory to ever closer union.
Every bureaucracy in human history has always wanted more.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote: That's very wonderful, but it doesn't solve the problem.
As I always say, there's not a lot we can do about it.
Let's hold our fire until 2019.
Personally, I remain an optimist. Other people will obviously have their own views on it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/30 13:04:36
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
I could say similar things about die-hard EU supporters.
I've never encountered a die-hard EU supporter (which you probably think I am because I keep asking questions).
There's a lot of people who don't particularly like the EU but don't want to vote for the mystery box. Lots who think Brexit will be worse.
In the software field I'm in, there'sa saying that people are stubbornly reluctant to change, and that you need to produce something twice as good as the incumbent to get them to move. Brexit so far can't even deliver nearly as good as being in the EU when you actually look at the details. If you want Remainers to get behind Brexit, show us all the improvements it brings to be worth the upheaval. I've een asking that for 2 years and have got nothing that passes any basic sniff test.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Nobody has been able to explain to me why an ever closer and ultimately federal Europe is such a bad thing.
Well, beyond senseless twaddle like 'WW2, speaking German now. 1966. Two World Wars, One World Cup. ENGERLAND ENGERLAND'.
Seriously. The world is getting smaller. Markets are getting bigger. Why shouldn't Europe federalise? And why shouldn't we be part of that?
Because a gilded cage is still a prison...
Arguing that we should surrender our national sovereignty in case we have another world war, is not showing faith in humanity. No offence intended.
Europe is no longer the centre of the world. The power has shifted across the Atlantic and to the East.
The days of European powers drawing lines on a map to divide up continents is long over. We couldn't start a world war even if we wanted too.
The world's most powerful military nation would quickly step in and end it to protect its vast business interests.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Brexit remains to have been sold entirely on a pack of lies by hard right shysters.
Nobody can define what we want from it, likely because of so many lies being spun in order to sell it in the first place.
Many now recognise this. Some want to apply the breaks, some want to reverse, but a dangerous core of absolute lunatics demand full steam ahead straight over the cliff, because braaaaahn people.
Macron and Juncker's speeches clearly show that Remain wasn't a vote for the status quo, either.
The EU has always been on a trajectory to ever closer union.
At the very least the UK would have a say, and history has shown the UK getting their way above the opinions of France and Germany, like eastwards expansion or shutting down proposals for enhanced military cooperation or increased banking supervision.
And when not, the UK also has a history of opting out, too.
Macron and Juncker's speeches clearly show that Remain wasn't a vote for the status quo, either.
You're going to have to provide some evidence for this. There's no indication we wouldn't still be a stubborn thorn in the EUs side if we remained.
Just google it
Macron and Juncker talked of finance ministers, a military force, a parliament for the Eurozone members... a budget...
We're going over old ground here. This is the part where I say Macron is not some random guy down the pub spouting gibberish.
If the head of state of one of the EU's most important members is saying it, then you can guarantee the rest of Brussels is thinking it.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Brexit remains to have been sold entirely on a pack of lies by hard right shysters.
Nobody can define what we want from it, likely because of so many lies being spun in order to sell it in the first place.
Many now recognise this. Some want to apply the breaks, some want to reverse, but a dangerous core of absolute lunatics demand full steam ahead straight over the cliff, because braaaaahn people.
Macron and Juncker's speeches clearly show that Remain wasn't a vote for the status quo, either.
The EU has always been on a trajectory to ever closer union.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Brexit remains to have been sold entirely on a pack of lies by hard right shysters.
Nobody can define what we want from it, likely because of so many lies being spun in order to sell it in the first place.
Many now recognise this. Some want to apply the breaks, some want to reverse, but a dangerous core of absolute lunatics demand full steam ahead straight over the cliff, because braaaaahn people.
Macron and Juncker's speeches clearly show that Remain wasn't a vote for the status quo, either.
The EU has always been on a trajectory to ever closer union.
At the very least the UK would have a say, and history has shown the UK getting their way above the opinions of France and Germany, like eastwards expansion or shutting down proposals for enhanced military cooperation or increased banking supervision.
And when not, the UK also has a history of opting out, too.
Maybe, but I'll repeat what I said last year:
EU to UK: you've had two referendums, you voted twice to stay in. No more fething around!!!! Put up or shut up.
And if I'm being brutally honest, we would not have had a leg to stand on, had we voted Remain, and had the EU laid down the law to us like that...
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Brexit remains to have been sold entirely on a pack of lies by hard right shysters.
Nobody can define what we want from it, likely because of so many lies being spun in order to sell it in the first place.
Many now recognise this. Some want to apply the breaks, some want to reverse, but a dangerous core of absolute lunatics demand full steam ahead straight over the cliff, because braaaaahn people.
Macron and Juncker's speeches clearly show that Remain wasn't a vote for the status quo, either.
The EU has always been on a trajectory to ever closer union.
../
The UK has an opt-out from that.
But how long does the opt-out hold if the other 27 declare an intention o remove it from us?
QMV has been mooted in the past...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/30 13:28:53
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Nobody has been able to explain to me why an ever closer and ultimately federal Europe is such a bad thing.
Well, beyond senseless twaddle like 'WW2, speaking German now. 1966. Two World Wars, One World Cup. ENGERLAND ENGERLAND'.
Seriously. The world is getting smaller. Markets are getting bigger. Why shouldn't Europe federalise? And why shouldn't we be part of that?
Because a gilded cage is still a prison...
A cage that you're going to be in wether you're in the EU or not. The difference is whether you're going to have any influence in shaping the legislation of one of the world's biggest trade blocs. You'll be at the mercy of someone else regardless of what you do. Welcome to not being the world hegemon, it's not that bad really.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
All this stuff about a gilded cage is nonsense. If the EU decided to "impose" every greater union on the UK, how would it enforce its decision?
It seems a bit unlikely the EU would try to invade the UK. The only thing would be to kick the UK out of the EU, which is where DINLT wants to be anyway.
Kilkrazy wrote: All this stuff about a gilded cage is nonsense. If the EU decided to "impose" every greater union on the UK, how would it enforce its decision?
It seems a bit unlikely the EU would try to invade the UK. The only thing would be to kick the UK out of the EU, which is where DINLT wants to be anyway.
If it had stayed a Common Market, instead of angling to be a counter-weight to Washington, we'd all be a lot better off.
Britain has often been accused of living in the past, but I'd say the rest tof Europe is no better. They've never forgiven the Americans for liberating them, and they know that individually, they don't stand a chance against the Yanks, so they did the next best thing: push for a United States of Europe...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/30 13:53:37
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Kilkrazy wrote: All this stuff about a gilded cage is nonsense. If the EU decided to "impose" every greater union on the UK, how would it enforce its decision?
It seems a bit unlikely the EU would try to invade the UK. The only thing would be to kick the UK out of the EU, which is where DINLT wants to be anyway.
If it had stayed a Common Market, instead of angling to be a counter-weight to Washington, we'd all be a lot better off.
How is that an answer to the question Kilkrazy asked? Stop dodging and answer!
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
If it had stayed a Common Market, instead of angling to be a counter-weight to Washington, we'd all be a lot better off.
I disagree; we're much better off because the EU has become what the EU is. You don't like that which is fine.
I'd also argue that Europe is looking to the future more than we are. It's trying to advance everyone in it's remit, pushing science and development, and we're trying to go back to the 50's with it's reduction in environmental standards and workers rights.
Ah, the last bastion of someone who has run out of argument. You made an outlandish claim, I asked you to prove it. "Just google it" is a cop out. Answer the question.
Macron and Juncker talked of finance ministers, a military force, a parliament for the Eurozone members... a budget...
And what's that got to do with the Brexit ballot? You're assuming that a vote to stay in is a vote to do what we've been resisting, but suits most of the rest of the union? You're going to have to try harder than that, and show me some actual evidence. Has anyone stated anything that reinforces your claim or are you making inferences that don't exist?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/30 14:11:02
Herzlos, I refuse to believe that you're incapable of going to google or youtube and tying in EU MACRON SPEECH.
A finance minister. A joint defence budget...
Naturally, of course, that's not more EU.
Of course, Macron might just be a figment of my imagination, and these videos don't exist...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/30 14:28:30
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
That's Macron, one of 28, sorry soon to be 27 leaders in the EU.
Do you really think the British are so wet we can't stand up to the Frenchie plans?
If so, then leaving won't make any difference, because once the EU has become a rigid dictatorship, they will simply incorporate the UK using the same magic you proposed they would use when we were members.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/30 14:29:25
I didn't say I can't google, I just said that telling me to google doesn't absolve you from answering the question.
I can't watch videos at the moment (I'm at work), but I'll do so later. Do either of these mention Brexit or the possibility of Remain? Or are these just you firing the first thing that sounds like an answer at me at hoping I'll accept all the inferences and leaps you have to make to have them justify your statement?
For the avoidance of doubt (and to prevent another strawman) I'm well aware of Macron's plans for Europe, and that lots of people want ever closer union. That's not what I asked. What I asked was for you to prove that a Remain vote had any connection to us accepting any of these potential futures for Europe. You still haven't answered that.
Plus as mentioned above. Macron doesn't run the EU, you could argue that Merkel does. Their voices will become louder when ours goes away.
If you were worried about what they'd do with the EU, you'd be campaigning for us to stay in and elect some MEPs with spines.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/30 14:31:45
Kilkrazy wrote: That's Macron, one of 28, sorry soon to be 27 leaders in the EU.
Do you really think the British are so wet we can't stand up to the Frenchie plans?
If so, then leaving won't make any difference, because once the EU has become a rigid dictatorship, they will simply incorporate the UK using the same magic you proposed they would use when we were members.
All I saw from Macron was more red tape and more EU bureaucracy.
If we had Remained, that's what Britain would have been getting...
More Europe, not less...
You can peddle the vote Remain get status quo argument all you want, but that came straight from the horse's mouth.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Herzlos wrote: I didn't say I can't google, I just said that telling me to google doesn't absolve you from answering the question.
I can't watch videos at the moment (I'm at work), but I'll do so later. Do either of these mention Brexit or the possibility of Remain? Or are these just you firing the first thing that sounds like an answer at me at hoping I'll accept all the inferences and leaps you have to make to have them justify your statement?
For the avoidance of doubt (and to prevent another strawman) I'm well aware of Macron's plans for Europe, and that lots of people want ever closer union. That's not what I asked. What I asked was for you to prove that a Remain vote had any connection to us accepting any of these potential futures for Europe. You still haven't answered that.
Plus as mentioned above. Macron doesn't run the EU, you could argue that Merkel does. Their voices will become louder when ours goes away.
If you were worried about what they'd do with the EU, you'd be campaigning for us to stay in and elect some MEPs with spines.
What I asked was for you to prove that a Remain vote had any connection to us accepting any of these potential futures for Europe. You still haven't answered that.
A country that voted twice to stay in the EU has ZERO political capital in order to resist any further EU integration.
David Cameron, and George Osborne, emboldned by a referendum victory that they saw as an endorsement for their premiership, and a Commons that is largely pro-EU, would not have lifted a finger to stop this.
Cameron, being one of the most pro-EU politicians around, would have welcomed it with open arms.
Who would stop him? The Tory-skeptics that had just been crushed in a referendum? They'd be laughed out of town. The Europe problem in the Tory party would have been solved for a generation...
You can peddle the vote Remain get status quo argument all you want, but that came straight from the horse's mouth.
Show me the gakking horses mouth!
That's the president of France, the head of state of one of the most important EU members.
That's not Dave down your local pub saying this...
I need to lie down....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/30 14:44:03
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
I see, so it was yet again an issue with our own politicians then, based on your own interpretation of what Cameron and the Tories would have done. You also ignore that the anti-EU portions of the Tories would not have remained idle if further EU integration had been proposed. They would have certainly used the "We didn't vote to remain in this x years ago" argument that they were using this time in reference to the previous EU referendum.
So what is to prevent the exact same issues coming up when we try to negotiate trade deals with the US and China? When the US healthcare industry wants to buy out parts of the NHS and squeeze profit out of it at the expense of people's lives, do you believe that our politicians are going to be able to stand up to them, or even just have the inclination to do so? After all, the referendum has emboldened the most hard-line aspects of the Tories, there is significant overlap in the portions of the party who are anti-NHS and anti-EU (not to mention anti-human rights etc.).
Also, what red tape has been foisted on us by the EU?
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/01/30 14:52:11
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
a budget... 