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Herbington wrote:

r_squared wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
...Well straws are actually good for your teeth....

Granted that's true, not so good for the nostrils of your local Olive ridley sea turtle.

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/08/150817-sea-turtles-olive-ridley-marine-debris-ocean-animals-science/

Im always amazed where is see this video posted. This is filmed by a friend of mine. We used to work for the same sea turtle conservation organisation. They've also found a different turtle with a plastic fork embedded in her nostril.

Ketara wrote:The trick is to get a permanent, dishwasher cleanable straw that you can reuse.

Whilst that is preferable (i have some), its not entirely feasible for restaurants/bars. Paper or bamboo straws should work for them though!

Paper straws used to be everywhere in the 70s and 80s, hardly ever see them anymore. Maybe they're the answer?

That Sea turtle video could end up being like the duck wrapped up in those plastic 6 pack rings for beer cans. Generations of kids from the 80s have diligently snipped them apart with scissors before tossing them in the bin because of that campaign.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
I'm amused that the Tory attempts to smear Corbyn with espionage scandals have resulted in a popularity boost for Labour. This kind of thing is just likely to make even more former Tory voters realise that May and co. are completely betraying the best interests of the country. They should be working out what they want from Brexit* and taking care of the economy, and instead they're wasting time with a Cold War style Red Scare?

*Well, they should have worked that out a year ago really

Sat through Liam Fox on he Andrew Marr show refusing to say whether his colleagues that have said Corbyn is a ‘traitor’ and ‘sold secrets’ to the soviets should apologise or conversely that he agree with those statements. He said over and over that he agreed that Labour Left undermined us in the Cold War, but he just couldn’t find it in himself to either agree Corbyn was a traitor or say that apologies were in order for making false statements. It’s really sad that politicians are so stuck to the party line that they’ll back up colleagues blatantly in the wrong. Everyone would have more respect for MPs if they would acknowledge when someone fethed up in their own party even if they continue to support them in the long term. But this flat refusal to give a yes or no as to whether Corbyn was rightfully called a ‘traitor’, and if not then whether an apology should be made, is just pathetic.

Even more baffling is that the guy already acknowledged it was wrong, so admitting he was wrong and apologised for it would kill that line off questioning right off

The Tories.

will kick and scream and break the party apart over brexit, throwing each other under the next available bus. But will stand fast in the face of saying something that will make a story fething disappear.

I'm no friend of Corbyn, but, for feths sake....

 Howard A Treesong wrote:

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
I'm amused that the Tory attempts to smear Corbyn with espionage scandals have resulted in a popularity boost for Labour. This kind of thing is just likely to make even more former Tory voters realise that May and co. are completely betraying the best interests of the country. They should be working out what they want from Brexit* and taking care of the economy, and instead they're wasting time with a Cold War style Red Scare?

*Well, they should have worked that out a year ago really

Sat through Liam Fox on he Andrew Marr show refusing to say whether his colleagues that have said Corbyn is a ‘traitor’ and ‘sold secrets’ to the soviets should apologise or conversely that he agree with those statements. He said over and over that he agreed that Labour Left undermined us in the Cold War, but he just couldn’t find it in himself to either agree Corbyn was a traitor or say that apologies were in order for making false statements. It’s really sad that politicians are so stuck to the party line that they’ll back up colleagues blatantly in the wrong. Everyone would have more respect for MPs if they would acknowledge when someone fethed up in their own party even if they continue to support them in the long term. But this flat refusal to give a yes or no as to whether Corbyn was rightfully called a ‘traitor’, and if not then whether an apology should be made, is just pathetic.

Best part :

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2011/oct/18/liam-fox-security-risk-report

"Liam Fox put the security of himself and his officials at "risk" on overseas visits by releasing details of his diary to Adam Werritty, the cabinet secretary Sir Gus O'Donnell has concluded in his report into the former defence secretary."

The usual cloud cuckoo land policy stance by Labour with their announcement on the customs union.

I've been saying this for 18 months, but when are Labour and the Tories going to learn that Britain is not negotiating with itself?

The whole house of cards collapses if the EU says no...

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
The usual cloud cuckoo land policy stance by Labour with their announcement on the customs union.

I've been saying this for 18 months, but when are Labour and the Tories going to learn that Britain is not negotiating with itself? ...

But the thing is, they are. The referendum may have been "won", but the argument sure as hell hasn't been. Consequently May finds herself negotiating with a number of intractables simultaneously, the EU, Labour, the DUP, her own party, and the shadowy ERG.

This has been said before many times, for good reason.

The government needs to make a clear statement of its aims in the negotiation for the post-Brexit status of the UK. The EU cannot decide for us what we want, and they can't negotiate with us if they don't know what they are negotiating about. It's also difficult for the opposition to criticise, oppose or modify the government's position if there isn't one.

I hope this status of moribund worthlessness continues until the elections in May. I believe that the Tories are going to get destroyed in them.

After that I hope the Labour Party will have the guts to make a clear declaration of its own EU policy, which looks like being a lot softer than the Tory Hard Brexiteer wing will accept. This gives the chance to split the government's support and force a vote of no confidence based on the Brexit issue. If it doesn't happen in normal business, it will happen through one or other of the votes on the Brexit legislation.

 r_squared wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
The usual cloud cuckoo land policy stance by Labour with their announcement on the customs union.

I've been saying this for 18 months, but when are Labour and the Tories going to learn that Britain is not negotiating with itself? ...

But the thing is, they are. The referendum may have been "won", but the argument sure as hell hasn't been. Consequently May finds herself negotiating with a number of intractables simultaneously, the EU, Labour, the DUP, her own party, and the shadowy ERG.

Not forgetting of course and in addition to... a significant fraction of businesses, civil servants, 30% of the populace (though likely decreasing from polls), other governments (e.g. Japan) and so on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:


After that I hope the Labour Party will have the guts to make a clear declaration of its own EU policy, which looks like being a lot softer than the Tory Hard Brexiteer wing will accept. This gives the chance to split the government's support and force a vote of no confidence based on the Brexit issue. If it doesn't happen in normal business, it will happen through one or other of the votes on the Brexit legislation.

Which is what he has done today. It's really an open goal for Labour with May trying to heard cats and failing miserably. Labour are steadily shifting towards remaining in the EU, but there does seem to be a subtle approach of letting a larger fraction of the populace wake up to the fact that it is an absolutely daft idea leaving. They are also open to a potential second referendum. Given that two years Labour looked like it was about to implode it is strange that the Tories are now the party that is about to do this (although it is a cautionary tale in hoping that Tories sink beneath the waves with a trace - here's hoping!)

Why is Corbyn peddling this idea of staying in the customs union with special terms? That’s never going to happen.

EDIT: Oh wait, now I know why. He’s probably going to try and align with Tory rebels and scupper Brexit altogether. And it’ll probably happen too. I should have known my vote was worth jack gak.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Why is Corbyn peddling this idea of staying in the customs union with special terms? That’s never going to happen.

It might, or it might not.

Essentially the Tory pitch (so far as we know it) is the same, only it's not being in the customs union with special terms that make it like being in the customs union for the good bits we like and outside for everything we don't like. The whole of the last two years has been built on that idea coming true.

The crunch point in both sides is how much of the special terms will the EU grant?

Will they give up the principle of freedom of movement of people, and let us have freedom of movement of capital, for instance.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Will they give up the principle of freedom of movement of people, and let us have freedom of movement of capital, for instance.

Nope. Especially as it's too good for EU to get as much of banking workjobs from UK to Europe.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Why is Corbyn peddling this idea of staying in the customs union with special terms? That’s never going to happen.

It might, or it might not.

Essentially the Tory pitch (so far as we know it) is the same, only it's not being in the customs union with special terms that make it like being in the customs union for the good bits we like and outside for everything we don't like. The whole of the last two years has been built on that idea coming true.

The crunch point in both sides is how much of the special terms will the EU grant?

Will they give up the principle of freedom of movement of people, and let us have freedom of movement of capital, for instance.

"We want to remain aligned in the areas where it suits us, but the freedom to diverge in those areas in which we believe we can gain a competitive advantage over you by doing so"

Yeah, good luck with that.

Ye. The two points the EU has been quite clear on being red lines right from the start were:

No deal must be better than being in the EU.
The four freedoms are fundamental and inextricably linked.

The UK government and anyone involved in leave seem to continue to believe that the EU will move on these. So far the UK government has been the only one delivering ultimatums and then backing down. The EU has been pretty consistent.

That's the way I see it.

Labour's offer is a lot "softer" than the Tories' seems to be, and presumably would lead to a lot more acceptance by the UK of existing EU rules in order to get the advantages of the customs union and so on.

To which Liam Fox and other Brexiteers will say, "This is more or less being in the EU but worse because we have no seat at the top table."

To which I will say, "Durrr... That's always been obvious. Just how stupid are you?"

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Why is Corbyn peddling this idea of staying in the customs union with special terms? That’s never going to happen.

EDIT: Oh wait, now I know why. He’s probably going to try and align with Tory rebels and scupper Brexit altogether. And it’ll probably happen too. I should have known my vote was worth jack gak.

To be fair on Labour their vote support much more favours a soft / no Wrexit (last polls I think were 65% +/- 5%). They also have a generally younger voter base and those with higher education (note doesn't mean intelligence before we get remarks) also generally support Labour more than Tories (though Labour's share starts to be eaten away by LDs at the highest levels). These considerations align with peoples views on Wrexit (in that these groups are generally opposed). Therefore it is not unreasonable to expect Labour to align against the softest possible Wrexit (if eventually cancelling it completely given that population of tomorrow generally don't want it).

If we go back to the EU red lines presentation



Then we can see Labours vision sits somewhere at the Switzerland / Ukraine level.

I see Boris the Clown is also talking nonsense again this morning. On R4 this morning

https://twitter.com/chunkymark/status/968402633395462144

Mishal: “Jeremy Corbyn is now being backed by CBI and business the Tories are not the party of business any more”
Boris: “i i i well well I well they’re wrong”
Mishal: “But they represent over 200,000 businesses”...

Boris: “One day we won’t talk about Brexit”

And also compares the NI/EIRE border to one between Camden, Islington and Westminster

https://twitter.com/BBCr4today/status/968406960776376320

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Why is Corbyn peddling this idea of staying in the customs union with special terms? That’s never going to happen.

EDIT: Oh wait, now I know why. He’s probably going to try and align with Tory rebels and scupper Brexit altogether. And it’ll probably happen too. I should have known my vote was worth jack gak.

Labour are following exactly the line they had going in to the last election. Soft Brexit or no Brexit.

To follow the argument given to remainers about voting Lib Dem, there was an election and only one party that promised Brexit at all costs and they lost what little power they did have.

This is the democratic process we have in the UK. Parliament is sovereign and can do as they see fit in the best interests of the country, but then pro-brexit voters seem only bothered by the sovereignty of parliament when it is going their way. Don't like what your MP is doing? Lobby them and don't vote for them next time.

I agree. Given that 48+% of people voted for no Brexit, and no-one voted for Hard Brexit, there needs to be a compromise arriving somewhere in the softer end of the spectrum.

if that thwarts Tory Hard Brexit ambitions, they can just suck it up. We're not wrecking the UK's economy to allow them to preserve their tax havens.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I agree. Given that 48+% of people voted for no Brexit, and no-one voted for Hard Brexit, there needs to be a compromise arriving somewhere in the softer end of the spectrum.

if that thwarts Tory Hard Brexit ambitions, they can just suck it up. We're not wrecking the UK's economy to allow them to preserve their tax havens.

There's compromise, and then there's outright stupidity. The EU will never give the UK a special customs deal, because if that happens, Canada, Japan, Australia et al will be on the phone demanding the same, and the phone will be so hot, that Tusk will need oven gloves to pick it up.

And of course, having to ask the EU's permission to sign trade deals with other nations, will go down like the Titanic.

It's cloud cuckoo land stuff from Corbyn, who is trying to appease the Blairites until he's in a position to sweep them away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Why is Corbyn peddling this idea of staying in the customs union with special terms? That’s never going to happen.

EDIT: Oh wait, now I know why. He’s probably going to try and align with Tory rebels and scupper Brexit altogether. And it’ll probably happen too. I should have known my vote was worth jack gak.

To be fair on Labour their vote support much more favours a soft / no Wrexit (last polls I think were 65% +/- 5%). They also have a generally younger voter base and those with higher education (note doesn't mean intelligence before we get remarks) also generally support Labour more than Tories (though Labour's share starts to be eaten away by LDs at the highest levels). These considerations align with peoples views on Wrexit (in that these groups are generally opposed). Therefore it is not unreasonable to expect Labour to align against the softest possible Wrexit (if eventually cancelling it completely given that population of tomorrow generally don't want it).

If we go back to the EU red lines presentation



Then we can see Labours vision sits somewhere at the Switzerland / Ukraine level.

I see Boris the Clown is also talking nonsense again this morning. On R4 this morning

https://twitter.com/chunkymark/status/968402633395462144

Mishal: “Jeremy Corbyn is now being backed by CBI and business the Tories are not the party of business any more”
Boris: “i i i well well I well they’re wrong”
Mishal: “But they represent over 200,000 businesses”...

Boris: “One day we won’t talk about Brexit”

And also compares the NI/EIRE border to one between Camden, Islington and Westminster

https://twitter.com/BBCr4today/status/968406960776376320

I've always respected your right to support the EU, but recent Guardian articles have highlighted trouble in paradise for the EU.

The Balkans is turning into a geo-political nightmare for the EU, and Italy could be all over the shop with these upcoming elections.

And of course, Spain cracking the whip on dissidents in Catalonia. The Man City manager was harassed the other week...

Britain is not alone with problems to seek.

Meanwhile our prospective trade partners outside the EU include the USA, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Turkey, China, and India, all of which are experiencing various degress of internal poltical or social problems.

This is the world. Get over it.

60% of the UK's trade is with the EU or with countries via trade agreements through the EU (Korea, Canada, Japan.)

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Meanwhile our prospective trade partners outside the EU include the USA, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Turkey, China, and India, all of which are experiencing various degress of internal poltical or social problems.

This is the world. Get over it.

60% of the UK's trade is with the EU or with countries via trade agreements through the EU (Korea, Canada, Japan.)

I don't deny that other nations have internal problems - I'm questioning the narrative that is around these days: Britain in trouble, whilst the EU glides serenely along in a state of Zen like calm.

That's your narrative.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Meanwhile our prospective trade partners outside the EU include the USA, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Turkey, China, and India, all of which are experiencing various degress of internal poltical or social problems.

This is the world. Get over it.

60% of the UK's trade is with the EU or with countries via trade agreements through the EU (Korea, Canada, Japan.)

I don't deny that other nations have internal problems - I'm questioning the narrative that is around these days: Britain in trouble, whilst the EU glides serenely along in a state of Zen like calm.

Who's narrative is that? I have never seen it. I think everyone excepts the fact that the EU is not perfect, but it is a better choice for us than leaving.

Or is this more of the exaggeration from the leave camp?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Meanwhile our prospective trade partners outside the EU include the USA, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Turkey, China, and India, all of which are experiencing various degress of internal poltical or social problems.

This is the world. Get over it.

60% of the UK's trade is with the EU or with countries via trade agreements through the EU (Korea, Canada, Japan.)

I don't deny that other nations have internal problems - I'm questioning the narrative that is around these days: Britain in trouble, whilst the EU glides serenely along in a state of Zen like calm.

This statement seems slightly ironic given that from what I recall you are very pro-independent Scotland?

Considering the EU negotiations they are remarkably stable with very little divergence publicly from the 27 nations. Unlike the UK which can't decide anything at all useful about Wrexit (partly due to the way it was framed in the first place). Yes there are issues. Add in a society of more than one human and there always will be. The important thing is whether the group of countries can come to an agreed consensus on how to deal with these issues.

There’s the issues with Poland and Hungry. There’s Italy, a ticking time bomb in more ways than one. But there’s no point focusing on that. That’s just another distraction.

I know that remaining in the CU will render the whole thing pointless. Maybe that is the point. More sabotage from a pm who backed remain. Or I would be thinking that if she wasn’t so fething stupid.

Alternatively, Remain was right from the start and it's just not feasible to pull something like this off even if you were competent.

Yeah I think it's less sabotage and realising you can't do the impossible with no majority and no real mandate from the people.

Just like whatever will happen with the Irish border later.
Though that could run for ages, I've seen some claim that cameras and random spot checks don't make it a hard border.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
There’s the issues with Poland and Hungry. There’s Italy, a ticking time bomb in more ways than one. But there’s no point focusing on that. That’s just another distraction.

I know that remaining in the CU will render the whole thing pointless. Maybe that is the point. More sabotage from a pm who backed remain. Or I would be thinking that if she wasn’t so fething stupid.

The Balkans, which to be fair, has been a clusterfeth for a lot of people pre-EU, is looking to be another major pain in the rear for the EU.

Russia can wage a soft power 'war' there, Turkey has influence there, and even China is sticking its beak in with major investment.

The EU is in a catch-22 in the Balkans. If it expands, it throws good money at corrupt governments and has more people moving around, which only adds to immigration fears in other EU nations, and if it does nothing, then it risks losing influence to China/Russia/Turkey.

The EU, being the EU, will do nothing, or will react at glacial pace, fudge it in the hope that something happens, and in the end, will probably see the Balkans slip through its grasp...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Meanwhile our prospective trade partners outside the EU include the USA, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Turkey, China, and India, all of which are experiencing various degress of internal poltical or social problems.

This is the world. Get over it.

60% of the UK's trade is with the EU or with countries via trade agreements through the EU (Korea, Canada, Japan.)

I don't deny that other nations have internal problems - I'm questioning the narrative that is around these days: Britain in trouble, whilst the EU glides serenely along in a state of Zen like calm.

Who's narrative is that? I have never seen it. I think everyone excepts the fact that the EU is not perfect, but it is a better choice for us than leaving.

Or is this more of the exaggeration from the leave camp?

Cast your eyes over The Guardian newspaper if you want proof of where my narrative is coming from.

As far as the Guardian is concerned, Brexit is a greater calamity than the Black Death and Genghis Khan combined.

David Davis has found it necessary to assure the country that Brexit would not be as bad as a Mad Max style post-apocalyptic wasteland, inarguably a worse situation than Black Death plus Ghengis Khan.

Make of that what you will.

The difficulty in getting out of the EU just demonstrates how much it’s taken over us. It was only ever one way.

Also, I guess Davis had to say that on account of all the remoaner screeching going on. We were told we’d sink beneath the waves, that WW3 would break out, and so on. None stop screaming.