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It's really not about the EU taking over us. It's just that trade in the modern world is increasingly international, and economies thus increasingly interconnected. Leaving the EU would be an attempt to be isolationist, but a failed attempt. We don't have the manufacturing or agricultural skills and infrastructure to go it alone any more. We're primarily a service economy and that relies on trade. There is no hard Brexit option that will not be an economic disaster. If we do have to Brexit, the best we can hope is to agree to whichever EU conditions (probably the four freedoms) they insist on so that we stay in the common market.

This is the circular argument that getting out is so hard that we are better off by getting out.

If it was so obvious that we would be better off by getting out there would not be such strong opposition to getting out.

I guess Davis had to say that because he's a useless twerp who hasn't got any substantive facts to present in support of his case.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
David Davis has found it necessary to assure the country that Brexit would not be as bad as a Mad Max style post-apocalyptic wasteland, inarguably a worse situation than Black Death plus Ghengis Khan.

Make of that what you will.

I beg to differ.

I'm a big fan of the Mad Max movies.

I love Fallout too.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
It's really not about the EU taking over us. It's just that trade in the modern world is increasingly international, and economies thus increasingly interconnected. Leaving the EU would be an attempt to be isolationist, but a failed attempt. We don't have the manufacturing or agricultural skills and infrastructure to go it alone any more. We're primarily a service economy and that relies on trade. There is no hard Brexit option that will not be an economic disaster. If we do have to Brexit, the best we can hope is to agree to whichever EU conditions (probably the four freedoms) they insist on so that we stay in the common market.

Example given: The Mini plant at Cowley in Oxford gets engines from Austria which contain spark plugs from Germany, and crankshafts from France that have been finished in Britain. Half the built cars are then exported to the EU.

You can see why the car industry doesn't like not having a customs union.

That's all bad enough.

The UK's problem is that our product import/export industry is much less important that our intellectual services industries (drugs, design, advertising, finance, law, software, etc.)

These sunrise industries are not covered by a simple customs union like Turkey has, so we need a very special deal of the kind that doesn't exist anywhere in the world outside the EU and is still not perfected within the EU.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
David Davis has found it necessary to assure the country that Brexit would not be as bad as a Mad Max style post-apocalyptic wasteland, inarguably a worse situation than Black Death plus Ghengis Khan.

Make of that what you will.

I beg to differ.

I'm a big fan of the Mad Max movies.

I love Fallout too.

So do I but wouldn't want to live in them - not unless I got a major Physical and Psychic boost.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
It's really not about the EU taking over us. It's just that trade in the modern world is increasingly international, and economies thus increasingly interconnected. Leaving the EU would be an attempt to be isolationist, but a failed attempt. We don't have the manufacturing or agricultural skills and infrastructure to go it alone any more. We're primarily a service economy and that relies on trade. There is no hard Brexit option that will not be an economic disaster. If we do have to Brexit, the best we can hope is to agree to whichever EU conditions (probably the four freedoms) they insist on so that we stay in the common market.

I've never denied that we don't live in an inter-connected world where business and fiancé move around, but there needs to be democratic and social balance.

Huge swathes of the globe are being exploited in Africa and Asia, hundreds of millions of people we're talking about here.

Even in the West, in Europe and the USA, millions have also been flung on the scrap heap as globalisation powers ahead and we get Trump and Brexit.

EU defenders always say that's why we need to the EU, to reduce some of these problems, but a lot of these problems were created in Europe by the EU - freedom of movement, letting Greece join the EU (even though they knew full well it was not up to it) and so on...

What annoys me the most is business concerns being spouted left, right, and centre. Obviously, business is important for wealth and prosperity, but if your know your history, business was happy to ally itself with Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, and would have children working down the coal mines if they thought they could get away with it.

Business needs to be respected, but kept away at arm's length from politics and democracy, otherwise we end up like the USA - money buying elections, and all the corruption that brings.

Business is like fire. It will warm you, it will cook your food, but it will burn you if you're not careful.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
David Davis has found it necessary to assure the country that Brexit would not be as bad as a Mad Max style post-apocalyptic wasteland, inarguably a worse situation than Black Death plus Ghengis Khan.

Make of that what you will.

I beg to differ.

I'm a big fan of the Mad Max movies.

I love Fallout too.

So do I but wouldn't want to live in them - not unless I got a major Physical and Psychic boost.

Try the Medical Clinic in New Vegas.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I don't deny that other nations have internal problems - I'm questioning the narrative that is around these days: Britain in trouble, whilst the EU glides serenely along in a state of Zen like calm.

Who's narrative is that? I have never seen it. I think everyone excepts the fact that the EU is not perfect, but it is a better choice for us than leaving.

Or is this more of the exaggeration from the leave camp?

Cast your eyes over The Guardian newspaper if you want proof of where my narrative is coming from.

As far as the Guardian is concerned, Brexit is a greater calamity than the Black Death and Genghis Khan combined.

So you are doing nothing to back your point up, just point vaguely in another direction and hope I don’t notice. How bad anyone says Brexit may be has nothing at all to do with the claim you make that people are saying the EU “glides serenely along in a state of Zen like calm”.

Can you backup your claim, or is it yet more Brexit lies?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

What annoys me the most is business concerns being spouted left, right, and centre. Obviously, business is important for wealth and prosperity, but if your know your history, business was happy to ally itself with Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, and would have children working down the coal mines if they thought they could get away with it.
:

I’m feeling like you are losing the argument so resorting to emotional attacks now.

Business concerns are important because without a healthy economy there won't be wealth to tax and spend on infrastructure, education, social security and so on.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


As far as the Guardian is concerned, Brexit is a greater calamity than the Black Death and Genghis Khan combined.

Can we have an actual citation for this statement please?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Even in the West, in Europe and the USA, millions have also been flung on the scrap heap as globalisation powers ahead and we get Trump and Brexit.

EU defenders always say that's why we need to the EU, to reduce some of these problems, but a lot of these problems were created in Europe by the EU - freedom of movement, letting Greece join the EU (even though they knew full well it was not up to it) and so on...

Why are either of these representative of people being thrown on the scrapheap? Freedom of movement provides the opportunity to work anywhere in the EU unconstrained. That's improving people prospects and choices and not being limited by a few companies in one country that can dictate the terms. It has allowed people from lower incomes in the EU to work in wealthier countries spreading that wealth more evenly. Yes there are still issues, but that the wealthy aren't being taxed appropriately is individual nation's creation and if anything the EU / ECJ has done more for trying to balance these issues (e.g. preferential tax treatment in EIRE, awarding damages against Google for deliberately down rating smaller competitor businesses and so on). The same goes for Greece, yes is wasn't well off but then again that allows a distribution of wealth across the nations that is fairer and more balanced and doesn't favour a few wealthy countries.

What annoys me the most is business concerns being spouted left, right, and centre. Obviously, business is important for wealth and prosperity, but if your know your history, business was happy to ally itself with Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, and would have children working down the coal mines if they thought they could get away with it. [\quote]

The EU is none of these things and not every company takes this approach (e.g. several are pulling adverts from the Daily Fail etc.).

You can never extract business and politics completely. A successful country needs successful businesses and they hence need to help the government of the day achieve this. That way you can afford the services you need. What we want to avoid is excessive greed and systems that favour the wealthy and allow them to hoard that wealth getting ever richer vs those not at the top because that then reduces their ability to succeed (and not simply be stepped on).

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Business concerns are important because without a healthy economy there won't be wealth to tax and spend on infrastructure, education, social security and so on.

They are important, but they are not the be all and end of a democracy. Look at history and how many laws were passed to reel in business: anti-trust laws, laws against monopolies, minimum wage, maternity leave, and the attempt by business to crush trade unions back in the day, and 100 other things etc etc

Let's not pretend for a minute that the majority of business interests would have voluntary submitted to these.

Lobbying MPs has had a toxic effect on our democracy these past decades. You yourself cited the example of the working time directive the other day, when business strong armed the UK government to get Britain an opt-out.

Bozza's put his foot in his mouth and shot himself in it again.

Ha ha! He is such a clown!

Is there a parallel universe where such a lying incompetent self-serving toad isn't Foreign Secretary and PM in waiting?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


EU defenders always say that's why we need to the EU, to reduce some of these problems, but a lot of these problems were created in Europe by the EU - freedom of movement, letting Greece join the EU (even though they knew full well it was not up to it) and so on...

Lots of government produced problems are blamed on the eu. The eu ain't perfect but it improves more things than it hinders.

What annoys me the most is business concerns being spouted left, right, and centre.

Business is kind of fundamental to the economy and let's face it; most individuals involvement with the eu is a week or 2 in Spain in the summer, and don't really know or care about the intracacies of the relationship


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Let's not pretend for a minute that the majority of business interests would have voluntary submitted to these.

And that's exactly why we need the eu.

Herzlos wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


EU defenders always say that's why we need to the EU, to reduce some of these problems, but a lot of these problems were created in Europe by the EU - freedom of movement, letting Greece join the EU (even though they knew full well it was not up to it) and so on...

Lots of government produced problems are blamed on the eu. The eu ain't perfect but it improves more things than it hinders.

Not to mention all the complaints about "red tape" and how bad it is.

Herzlos wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Let's not pretend for a minute that the majority of business interests would have voluntary submitted to these.

And that's exactly why we need the eu.

Indeed and lets not forget that the Tories are bank rolled by such large companies that want to see minimum controls to allow maximum exploitation of the populace. The EU actually provides some controls for the nut case, we don't really care about the populace, party.

The same party we just handed extra powers too?

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. By choosing to stay in the customs union (or not leaving the eu as it’s also known), Corbyn has decided to say piss off to the labour heartlands who voted to leave and instead cozy up to the businesses and rich remainer areas of the south. How nice of him.

You mean all those areas that have changed their mind now they know the impact on their area? Or the ones that voted Labour in 2017 when their position on customs union was that it was a possibility and no deal was not an option? Sounds to me like Corbyn is doing exactly what is in his mandate from the last manifesto.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

They are important, but they are not the be all and end of a democracy. Look at history and how many laws were passed to reel in business: anti-trust laws, laws against monopolies, minimum wage, maternity leave, and the attempt by business to crush trade unions back in the day, and 100 other things etc etc

Let's not pretend for a minute that the majority of business interests would have voluntary submitted to these.

Lobbying MPs has had a toxic effect on our democracy these past decades. You yourself cited the example of the working time directive the other day, when business strong armed the UK government to get Britain an opt-out.

Your using an example of a time where the UK government gave in to business to opt out of an EU regulation as an example of why workers are better off out of the EU?

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Oh yeah, I almost forgot. By choosing to stay in the customs union (or not leaving the eu as it’s also known), Corbyn has decided to say piss off to the labour heartlands who voted to leave and instead cozy up to the businesses and rich remainer areas of the south. How nice of him.

The areas that'll be hurt worst by a bad brexit deal and no customs union?
I think he's doing the correct thing, even if it generates some brexiteer rage.

Youy'll be shocked to know that The Sun and rees-mogg have been lying to people.

Again.

https://twitter.com/StevePeers/status/968775024017625088

Yes! Lets slash tariffs on things the UK produces so we can get cheap imports! I'm sure farmers will love being undercut by cheap beef, tomato's and milk! What a boon to our rural economy Brexit will be! Ignoring the fact that those savings are a total lie.

..it's the lack of understanding of basic maths one finds most disheartening.


with regards to exports :

https://uktradeforum.net/2017/09/20/what-chlorinated-chicken-tells-us-about-brexit/

lexibility is costly. And it is far from clear that slightly cheaper chicken is worth a hard Irish border, worth Welsh sheep farmers having to helicopter their produce into France (Calais isn’t currently an EU approved border inspection post able to deal with third-country imports of animal origin), or worth the UK having to introduce an entirely new third-country authorisation and auditing regime.

I'm sure it's eminently practical to airlift lamb etc etc about the place.

Red Alert warning for snow issued for where am I up here

First time we've ever had one. If I'm lucky, they'll find my frozen body in the Spring.

I still have a lot of old, rare Citadel miniatures from the 1980s laying around, so my last will and testament is to have them auctioned off and the proceeds donated to dakkadakka.

On a serious note, we often fall out over politics, but best of luck to everybody today and tomorrow with the weather.

Keep warm, and don't travel until you have to.

Good luck to you too!

I saw the Red Alert a few minute ago on the BBC.

We won't get it that bad in the wilds of rural Oxfordshire, but it was down to -6 last night so it's a bit nippy by normal standards!

Best of luck to you guys, we are feeling the same here on the northern continental part. My city of Lübeck on the Baltic coast was hit with -20°C this night, and we are having Russian levels of knee-deep snow like we didn't get for years up here. Make sure you don't get stuck with your car in some remote place, and get some hot tea and cocoa ready in your homes.

And since we are on that topic for a second, even though I'm not posting much here I'm a big fan of this thread and reading it daily. I'm very glad it didn't get locked like the US politics one and everybody is getting along - kind of.

Theresa May rejects EU's draft option for Northern Ireland

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43224785

So, TM agrees to fudge in December, hails it as great victory.

EU write down fudge.

TM says "no UK prime minister could ever agree".

Except herself, 3 months ago.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Oh yeah, I almost forgot. By choosing to stay in the customs union (or not leaving the eu as it’s also known), ....

Just so we're clear, he is talking about a customs union not the customs union. We cannot stay in the customs union, but we can create a new customs union.

You will be getting what you want, for us to leave the EU, and we will forge a new trade deal with the EU, part of which will be creating a new customs deal for us, or a new customs union if you will.

What's the problem with that? Especially as a customs arrangement will be essential if NI is continue in anyway as it is now.

 Witzkatz wrote:
I'm very glad it didn't get locked like the US politics one and everybody is getting along - kind of.

That's just because we save all our most vitriolic personal attacks for the strongly worded letters we send to each other.

 Darkjim wrote:
Theresa May rejects EU's draft option for Northern Ireland

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43224785

So, TM agrees to fudge in December, hails it as great victory.

EU write down fudge.

TM says "no UK prime minister could ever agree".

Except herself, 3 months ago.

You forgot the step three months ago where everyone apart from the most hard-core leavers said it would not work and they were dismissed.

The problem with the proposed new customs union is the trade-offs between various factors:

The UK wants
Tariff and inspection free movement of goods, services and capital.
The right to negotiate trade deals outside the EU without EU oversight.
No EU immigration.
No EU determined standards and specifications (no jurisdiction of the ECJ.)

To achieve this, firstly the EU needs to give up freedom of movement of people.

Secondly there is a very difficult problem of how to achieve perfect agreement of standards and specifications for everything exported from the UK, which may have been imported from outside the EU (e.g. US chlorine washed chicken.)

At the moment, no-one knows how this can be achieved in practice, and Brexiteers rely on Handwavium to explain it.