UK & EU Politics Thread

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**Techpriestsupport**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Have your cake and eat it, and cherry picking, appears to be a contagious disease that has reached as far as Brussels, it would seem.

Leave the EU, but still allow the EU the same level of access to Britain's waters???/

The brass neck of these people never ceases to amaze me...

Um, the term 'Brass neck' is unknown to me, could you put it in context here?

**Jadenim**

Cojones?

Basically it’s a suprising, almost outrageous, request or statement, which you would normally expect to be turned down. There’s also an implication that the person making the statement isn’t deserving.

A teenager who sits on the couch for an entire year and then asks their parents to buy them a car for Christmas would be a good example.

**Kilkrazy**

Kroem wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Kroem wrote:
However our electoral system is hugely flawed in that voting proportion is rarely represented equally in parliament.

We had a referendum on proportional representation under the coalition and people didn't want it.

That wasn't on proportional representation. That was on Alternative Voting. They are not the same, despite the Tories attempts to claim as such.

Haha I had to look it up but you're absolutely right! The AV people didn't do a great job of getting their message across there did they...

I voted Yes in that referendum. I don't think AV is a very good system but I thought at least it might open the gate to a more extensive reform of UK constitutional government.

There are many ways we could re-organise the electoral system and the houses of Parliament, and we can take examples and ideas from many countries. For example, the Japanese system involves FPTP constituencies plus a proportional allocation of seats.

**Techpriestsupport**

I'd happy if alternate voting came to america. It won't under our current system. Just something to remember for after the revolution.

**welshhoppo**

Techpriestsupport wrote:
I'd happy if alternate voting came to america. It won't under our current system. Just something to remember for after the revolution.

Can always come back and join the empire.

You will have to start spelling donut like doughnut however.

**Techpriestsupport**

welshhoppo wrote:
Techpriestsupport wrote:
I'd happy if alternate voting came to america. It won't under our current system. Just something to remember for after the revolution.

Can always come back and join the empire.

You will have to start spelling donut like doughnut however.

Sorry, but there will be a nice day in hell before I accept an government with a hereditary monarchy.

**Darkjim**

Impact report released, more or less -

https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/Exiting-the-European-Union/17-19/Cross-Whitehall-briefing/EU-Exit-Analysis-Cross-Whitehall-Briefing.pdf

Check out section 23, to find out what impact Brexit may have on your local area.

Annex A is a lot of fun too. Best impact = not very much, worst impact = Mad Max.

**Kilkrazy**

We had better hope that all the extra sovereignty is nourishing.

**Darkjim**

And that there are a lot of calories in a blue passport.

**Techpriestsupport**

Kilkrazy wrote:
We had better hope that all the extra sovereignty is nourishing.

If not you could always consider eating known brexit supporters. I'm keeping an eye on some known trump voters for when things tank in America.

**Kilkrazy**

I dug up my old blue passport from my cellar last week. It was issued in 1989 and expired in 2001 after an emergency two-year extension.

It's a bit mouldy but I think I can simmer it in a rough cider stock and dress it with shredded Wensleydale, and it will come out quite nice.

The plus is that it is in a leather jacket which will add some good protein. There's no point keeping the jacket because ICAA compliant passports are a different size.

**Techpriestsupport**

Kilkrazy wrote:
I dug up my old blue passport from my cellar last week. It was issued in 1989 and expired in 2001 after an emergency two-year extension.

It's a bit mouldy but I think I can simmer it in a rough cider stock and dress it with shredded Wensleydale, and it will come out quite nice.

The plus is that it is in a leather jacket which will add some good protein. There's no point keeping the jacket because ICAA compliant passports are a different size.

Better idea: use it to bait a trap for a brexit supporter who thinks blue passports are such a big deal. Once you're done eating him you can use the passport as bait for the next one.

**Darkjim**

That does sound nice.

I've got a bloke down the road with a Union Jack on a flagpole in his front garden, I'm going to eat him, and any pets he might have.

**Techpriestsupport**

Darkjim wrote:
That does sound nice.

I've got a bloke down the road with a Union Jack on a flagpole in his front garden, I'm going to eat him, and any pets he might have.

Aaaauuuuugggghhhh! You'd eat a dog or cat? What kind of monster are you?!?! Eating a person stupid enough to vote for a policy or leader who created an utter disaster is one thing, they did something to deserve it. Plus you're helping reduce the moron population a little. But to murder and eat their innocent dog or cat is just barbaric.

**Mr Morden**

kronk wrote:

15 million British Pound Moneys wouldn't pave a city block. In the grand scheme of government spending, it's a meaningless spend.

And thats why you have waste anywhere - because people think X amount does not matter.

**Kroem**

Darkjim wrote:
Impact report released, more or less -

https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/Exiting-the-European-Union/17-19/Cross-Whitehall-briefing/EU-Exit-Analysis-Cross-Whitehall-Briefing.pdf

Check out section 23, to find out what impact Brexit may have on your local area.

Annex A is a lot of fun too. Best impact = not very much, worst impact = Mad Max.

Thanks for sharing, that makes for some quite interesting reading.

It seems that even an FTA scenario (which seems to be what we are heading for) would have a major negative impact from the bits that I read.

**Kilkrazy**

Depends how restrictive an FTA, but it's obvious that the best possible outside the EU deal is going to be worse in some ways than what we have got now. It can't fail to be, because what we have now is nearly 100% frictionless trade.

The really worrying thing about the report is that the best possible non-EU FTAs are likely to add so little to the economy. The Brexit message has always been that any losses from leaving the EU would be more than conpensated for by the huge gains to be had elsewhere.

Still and all and everything, a lot of people will simply see this as more Project Fear, and ignore it. Others will accept their impoverishment as the price of freedom.

For example, Rees-Mogg has said that the report doesn't count because it has been widely mocked [by Hard Brexiteers like him].

**Whirlwind**

Kroem wrote:
Darkjim wrote:
Impact report released, more or less -

https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/Exiting-the-European-Union/17-19/Cross-Whitehall-briefing/EU-Exit-Analysis-Cross-Whitehall-Briefing.pdf

Check out section 23, to find out what impact Brexit may have on your local area.

Annex A is a lot of fun too. Best impact = not very much, worst impact = Mad Max.

Thanks for sharing, that makes for some quite interesting reading.

It seems that even an FTA scenario (which seems to be what we are heading for) would have a major negative impact from the bits that I read.

A quick glance shows £90bn extra borrowing required by 2033/34 under a FTA agreement (which is the most likely scenario).

I think we should get another bus written up. Something along the lines of:-

"Brexit will cost us £1.7bn per week. Let's fund our NHS instead!"

**reds8n**

hey look :

https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/971735569549201408

David Davis lied , repeatedly, to both the public and Parliament.

.... sure any minute now he'll be asked to resign, forced to by a surge of loyal patriots eager to ensure that UK parliament remains blah blah etc etc

Above the 0: the benefits of Brexit

Below the 0: the costs of Brexit

.. shall we put this on a bus then ?

**Darkjim**

PROJECT NEWS. FAKE FEAR. Or something.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

I was watching BBC business news this morning, and they reported that the nations that make up TPP are in Chile ready to put pen to paper.

We're taking 14 trillion dollars worth of economic benefits here.

And to that I say set sail for the Asia Pacific region.

The EU reminds me of a friendly and reliable corner shop. There for you when you need a pint of milk and a loaf of bread on a winter's morning, but limiting on what you can buy.

Asia Pacific on the other hand is like the brand new supermarket that's just opened on the edge of town.

Yeah, there's the small matter of Geography, but Canada, Mexico and the USA are just across the Atlantic, and the rest can be easily reached through the Panama Canal.

People will say that the bulk of our trade is with the EU, and they're right, but let's swap the corner shop for the supermarket and set sail for Asia Pacific.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

reds8n wrote:
hey look :

https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/971735569549201408

David Davis lied , repeatedly, to both the public and Parliament.

.... sure any minute now he'll be asked to resign, forced to by a surge of loyal patriots eager to ensure that UK parliament remains blah blah etc etc

Above the 0: the benefits of Brexit

Below the 0: the costs of Brexit

.. shall we put this on a bus then ?

No disrespect intended reds8n, but that looks like it was cobbled together by a high school geography student.

It looks nothing like the professional standards that a government agency would produce be it EU or UK.

Doesn't seem right to me. I could be wrong.

**A Town Called Malus**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

No disrespect intended reds8n, but that looks like it was cobbled together by a high school geography student.

It looks nothing like the professional standards that a government agency would produce be it EU or UK.

Doesn't seem right to me. I could be wrong.

Section 18.

https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/Exiting-the-European-Union/17-19/Cross-Whitehall-briefing/EU-Exit-Analysis-Cross-Whitehall-Briefing.pdf

This is why people don't take your opinion seriously when it comes to this topic. You would rather believe in some undefined conspiracy than the fact that Brexit is bad.

**Whirlwind**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

No disrespect intended reds8n, but that looks like it was cobbled together by a high school geography student.

It looks nothing like the professional standards that a government agency would produce be it EU or UK.

Doesn't seem right to me. I could be wrong.

Good grief, did you even bother to check the original link and where it came from...

https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/Exiting-the-European-Union/17-19/Cross-Whitehall-briefing/EU-Exit-Analysis-Cross-Whitehall-Briefing.pdf

Does www.parliament.uk indicate at all where the report might have come from...

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

No disrespect intended reds8n, but that looks like it was cobbled together by a high school geography student.

It looks nothing like the professional standards that a government agency would produce be it EU or UK.

Doesn't seem right to me. I could be wrong.

Section 18.

https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/Exiting-the-European-Union/17-19/Cross-Whitehall-briefing/EU-Exit-Analysis-Cross-Whitehall-Briefing.pdf

Bah!

If my tax money is paying for this stuff, the least they can do is make it look modern and not like something from 1970s East Germany.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Whirlwind wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

No disrespect intended reds8n, but that looks like it was cobbled together by a high school geography student.

It looks nothing like the professional standards that a government agency would produce be it EU or UK.

Doesn't seem right to me. I could be wrong.

Good grief, did you even bother to check the original link and where it came from...

https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/Exiting-the-European-Union/17-19/Cross-Whitehall-briefing/EU-Exit-Analysis-Cross-Whitehall-Briefing.pdf

Does www.parliament.uk indicate at all where the report might have come from...

Hey, this is DINLT you're talking to When did I ever bother with facts and figures?

I jest of course.

**Whirlwind**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I was watching BBC business news this morning, and they reported that the nations that make up TPP are in Chile ready to put pen to paper.

We're taking 14 trillion dollars worth of economic benefits here.

The total value of the market within the TPP group is $14trillion dollars. That includes all trade that is already happening anyway. That's not the benefits which is much lower (though hopefully for those involved at least something) because a lot of that trade is already happening. There is a distinct difference. We already have access to some of that market through the EU free trade anyway (e.g. Japan) and to the others through non free trade agreements. You are mis-attributing benefits vs total value of the market.

Yeah, there's the small matter of Geography, but Canada, Mexico and the USA are just across the Atlantic, and the rest can be easily reached through the Panama Canal.

I guess you have looked at too many flat world maps because the Panama Canal is on the equator. You are talking vast distances here.

Interesting piece on the Guardian about UK tax fraud and our inability to deal with it. The EU is taking us to court over this.

The EU executive has said the UK owes €2.7bn (£2.4bn) to Brussels for alleged failure to tackle customs fraud, as it launched legal action against the government.

While the case is unrelated to Brexit, the threat of a hefty payment to Brussels is bound to raise tensions as the UK and EU debate customs arrangements to avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland.

The European commission announced it was sending a letter of formal notice to the government over its refusal “to make customs duties available to the EU budget as required by EU law”. Citing a confidential report by the EU’s anti-fraud office Olaf, the commission said the UK “negligence” had allowed customs fraud that caused a €2.7bn loss to the EU budget. “The UK must assume the financial consequences of its violations of union rules,” the commission said.

A government spokesman said it would respond in due course to the commission, but did not recognise the estimates of alleged duty loss.

The case came to light last year, after EU anti-fraud investigators, accused British customs officials of turning a blind eye to criminal gangs using fake invoices and making false claims about the value of clothes and shoes imported from China. France, Germany, Spain and Italy lost a combined €3.2bn from 2013 to 2016 in VAT revenues, as a result of British failures in handling imports at its ports, according to Olaf.

A letter of formal notice is the first stage in the EU’s legal process against rule-breaking. It could lead to the government being taken to the European court of justice, although most cases are settled without going to a judge.

The British government has agreed that any cases registered at the ECJ on Brexit day, should be allowed to continue to a binding ruling. But the UK wants to ensure British lawyers can continue to be involved, a point that needs to be settled in ongoing Brexit negotiations.

The case helps to explain why EU diplomats mistrust British proposals for an unprecedented customs arrangements that would see the UK collecting EU customs duties on the Irish border. One EU diplomat described the UK as “the weak link in the chain” on customs controls, while a senior French official last year accused the government of not making an effort to stop fraud.

Makes you wonder whether things like this don't help our case when May talks about trying to have an open borders agreement. If the UK can't manage things now how can we expect to when things get worse with Wrexit.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Bah!

If my tax money is paying for this stuff, the least they can do is make it look modern and not like something from 1970s East Germany.

This is a scan of a print out of a power point presentation I think. It was designed for a projector so the colours are made more bold as they have a habit of washing out more subtle displays.

This is also probably after Davis the Dunce decided to drop as much coffee, tea, and other unmentionables all over it to stop people realising just how big of a lie he put forward to parliament and the public.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

@whirlwind.

If faced with the choice of staying with the EU and its 500 million people or the booming markets of Asia/Pacific with 2 billion+ people to tap into, then give me TPP any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

As I've said before, I've sold a ton of miniature war gaming stuff to Australia over the years, so I'm already halfway there.

Common sense also tells me that the USA should be out natural trading partner, what with the ease of a common language and cultural similarities and all that.

Where is our trade deal with the USA? Oh, we don't have one, because the EU doesn't have one with the USA

We're operating with one hand tied behind our backs here.

**Witzkatz**

Please don't take this too personal, DINLT, but your grand strategies about leaving Europe behind and setting sail for the Asian markets literally sounds like you're in the mindest of an Anno 1702 computer game, where the player can easily switch out the AI players he does trade with and go for the most profitable routes.

While the real world is more like Anno 1702, but it's a free-for-all with a few dozen players, who play it COMPETITIVELY and have played it for years, who have already formed alliances and are just waiting to exploit the smaller players whevere the opportunity arises.

It's. not. that. simple. But we had that topic of trade outside of the EU with Asian markets in this thread already, with more business-savvy people than myself pointing out the problems with it, so I'm not going to try and repeat those arguments.

**Whirlwind**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
@whirlwind.

If faced with the choice of staying with the EU and its 500 million people or the booming markets of Asia/Pacific with 2 billion+ people to tap into, then give me TPP any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

As I've said before, I've sold a ton of miniature war gaming stuff to Australia over the years, so I'm already halfway there.

Common sense also tells me that the USA should be out natural trading partner, what with the ease of a common language and cultural similarities and all that.

Where is our trade deal with the USA? Oh, we don't have one, because the EU doesn't have one with the USA

We're operating with one hand tied behind our backs here.

2 billion people is fine, but not when the vast majority of them don't have 2 pence to rub together. It's the value of the market that is important.

Miniatures are easier to transport because they are small and dense but they are never going to set the world on fire and is just a bit part of the economy (and lets not forget that the miniatures market is messed up anyway in Australia with the insane prices they have from a certain company). However this doesn't work when you talk about large bulky items that you can only relatively transport in a small numbers. In those cases it is always more cost effective not to manufacture the parts near where the raw resources are (energy, metals etc) ship them to a destination near to where they are being sold and then build them there (e.g. our car manufacturing). Shipping bulky items across a *globe* is not efficient because the world is not flat as maps suggest - those types of maps make us look much closer to such countries than we really are.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Witzkatz wrote:
Please don't take this too personal, DINLT, but your grand strategies about leaving Europe behind and setting sail for the Asian markets literally sounds like you're in the mindest of an Anno 1702 computer game, where the player can easily switch out the AI players he does trade with and go for the most profitable routes.

While the real world is more like Anno 1702, but it's a free-for-all with a few dozen players, who play it COMPETITIVELY and have played it for years, who have already formed alliances and are just waiting to exploit the smaller players whevere the opportunity arises.

It's. not. that. simple. But we had that topic of trade outside of the EU with Asian markets in this thread already, with more business-savvy people than myself pointing out the problems with it, so I'm not going to try and repeat those arguments.

I think he might be working on the principle that Transmat technology is just at around the corner...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
@whirlwind.

Common sense also tells me that the USA should be out natural trading partner, what with the ease of a common language and cultural similarities and all that.

Where is our trade deal with the USA? Oh, we don't have one, because the EU doesn't have one with the USA

We're operating with one hand tied behind our backs here.

And how is that actually working out?

We have huge steel and Aluminium barriers about to be put in place.

Huge rumoured car tariffs to be put in place

Worse access for airline carriers than we already have.

If nothing more it should show that being small and insignificant relatively is going to leave us with a lot worse deals. It's why the person who shall not be named doesn't like the EU. Not because of the nonsense he spouts it is because more than anything he is a business person that wants to flatten any sort of competition.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Contrary to popular belief, I love Europe: the people, the culture, the history, the food.

But as a trading partner, it's yesterday's news.

A blind man can see that the centre of gravity is shifting from Europe to Asia. We had our day in the sun, and now somebody else is taking up the mantle.

Civilizations rise, civilizations fall...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Witzkatz wrote:
Please don't take this too personal, DINLT, but your grand strategies about leaving Europe behind and setting sail for the Asian markets literally sounds like you're in the mindest of an Anno 1702 computer game, where the player can easily switch out the AI players he does trade with and go for the most profitable routes.

While the real world is more like Anno 1702, but it's a free-for-all with a few dozen players, who play it COMPETITIVELY and have played it for years, who have already formed alliances and are just waiting to exploit the smaller players whevere the opportunity arises.

It's. not. that. simple. But we had that topic of trade outside of the EU with Asian markets in this thread already, with more business-savvy people than myself pointing out the problems with it, so I'm not going to try and repeat those arguments.

I don't mind being criticised - it's good, honest, healthy debate - the backbone of our Western Democracy.

To me, Germany will always be the nation of Goethe and Heinrich Heine.

**jouso**

Tusk takes a hard line re: Ireland border.

EU freezes Brexit talks until Britain produces Irish border solution
Donald Tusk says negotiations will be 'Ireland first' from now on

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-talks-irish-border-tusk-varadkar-northern-ireland-uk-solution-dup-a8246216.html?amp&__twitter_impression=true