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Frankly, I'm not even that bothered about how corrupt the whole campaign was any more. As far as I can see it was a cess pool of lies, self-interest, and corruption anyway. That is wholly evident to anyone with eyes.
The important thing is that we now make sure that the country doesn't go completely belly up before we get a chance to get back into the EU in about 10 years down the line.
Aye. We knew that sums of money were being twisted into it that shouldn't have been from the minute David Cameron officially deployed the resources of the Government into advertising for one side in particular. It's really a bit late to try and catch that train in any given direction.
Howard A Treesong wrote:I’m tired of accusations of anti-semitism against Corbyn and Labour.
Why? When you get stories like this jumping out on a regular basis:-
It's reached the point now where every time an allegation of anti-semitism comes out, it doesn't even count as news anyone. 'Trick of the right', snorts Len McCluskey. 'We're talking about Israel, not Jews! Don't be silly', says your average Labour councillor. 'It's all fake news and propaganda to drag down the BEST MAN IN THE WORLD', fumes your Momentum campaigner. 'If you can point us to a recording, we'll do something, but until then, we have no comment', dismisses the Labour whip. 'I stood on a stage with all those people saying about horrible things about Jews because it's important to talk to everyone', nods Corbyn.
And yet. One wonders. If there was a genuine low lying anti-semitism in the Labour party, isn't this the exact way you'd try and hide it? Pretend it isn't there, and sweep it all under the rug?
I've given a long and thoroughly substantiated post before (in this thread) as to my reasons as to why I'm quite convinced that it is, indeed, there. And it genuinely worries me that people who are otherwise liberal and left wing seem to have this bizare blind spot where it gets dismissed every time as 'hot air' and 'propaganda' and 'press bias', alongside a healthy dose of whataboutism ('I bet there's as many anti-semites in the Tories!).
There's a been a steady growth in anti-semitism in the UK over the last decade, and it concerns me just how easily people seem to shrug off a reasonably relentless barrage of tiny pebbles with regards to it in the Labour party. And they do it purely because it is the Labour Party. Were it the Tories, I've no doubt the same people would be crowing it from the rooftops. Yet in the name of political partisanship; it gets consigned to a pile marked 'Things that must be devised by The Man to drag down Corbyn', the pile that simply doesn't have to be thought about, that can be instantly dismissed and disregarded so long as no photo of 50 Labour MP's wearing SS outfits surfaces.
Nah, it means nothing. Nothing at all. Change the word 'Jew' for 'Zionist', and it doesn't count anymore. You can say that you're fighting 'Zionism', and talk about those evil 'Zionist bankers controlling the world', or those 'hook nosed Zionists'. Challenged? God, it's just those 'Zionists' trying to shut down debate, and suppress your free speech by mentioning 'anti-semitism.' That's what they do right? After all, you haven't even mentioned Jews once! And thus is any Labour politician or member immediately extricated from any awkward questions. They might be told in your official whitewashed investigation to stop calling people 'Zios', but that's about it. No anti-semitism here. Nothing to see. Just an evil smear by Murdoch/the right/those infernal Je...Zios.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/24 22:28:44
Traditional labour voters are working class and want support against austerity cuts and eroding employment rights.
You're right, but I'm not sure austerity is that much of an open goal for Labour at the moment.
As I see it, to fund a increase in public spending you would need to either raise taxes or raise debt levels.
The message that we (as a country) have to live within our means and balance the books has been quite successful in the last few elections, so I will discount the debt option.
The greatest trick of the right, as they asset strip their countries and steal from taxpayers, is convincing the average voter that national budgets work like household budgets.
Ex-Mantic Rules Committees: Kings of War, Warpath
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The last labour leader was a Jew and beat his own brother to be leader. If there was all this anti semitism in the party you’d think he wouldn’t have much luck or would have used his position to change things. So the Labour Party were happy with either Ed or David Miliband as leader. I don’t think anti semitism is growing in the UK over the last ten years, not to say it doesn’t exist at all, but ‘growing’ isn’t my impression. This continual focus that it’s specifically a Labour problem is nonsense. Suggesting that if the Tories did the same there would be crowing about it, really? The Tories repeatedly display bigotry of various sorts and it just doesn’t get much traction presumably because it’s expected of conservative sorts, but there’s a certain delight when it comes to accusing Corbyn and Labour of being anti semitic. We know that some cases of people like Ken Livingstone can’t open their mouth any more without saying something offensive but that doesn’t mean the labour ranks have endemic anti semitism.
I don’t know if it’s really appropriate for this thread, but I think there is a big issue around where does the line stand between anti-semitism and criticism of Israel. Because whilst I have absolutely no problem with Jews (or any other race or religion). I have a big fething problem with the behaviour of Israel as a political entity.
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
Jadenim wrote: I don’t know if it’s really appropriate for this thread, but I think there is a big issue around where does the line stand between anti-semitism and criticism of Israel. Because whilst I have absolutely no problem with Jews (or any other race or religion). I have a big fething problem with the behaviour of Israel as a political entity.
Tangentially Radio 4 did a nice piece a few weeks ago on the lefts issues with race and religion. Israel/Judaism wasn't mentioned but focused on problems of selection of female muslim candidates and the lack of voices decrying 'negative cultural and societal norms' within minority communities.
Jadenim wrote: I don’t know if it’s really appropriate for this thread, but I think there is a big issue around where does the line stand between anti-semitism and criticism of Israel. Because whilst I have absolutely no problem with Jews (or any other race or religion). I have a big fething problem with the behaviour of Israel as a political entity.
Both sides have blurred the line so much, I doubt if there's a line left anymore.
Legitimate criticism of Israel is often attacked as being anti-Semitic.
On the other side, Jews/Israel are seen as being one and the same, so you get the nonsense of the 'Jewish lobby' controlling the world's media, pulling the strings of the US government etc etc etc
My advice is what it's been for a long, long time: stay the feth away from the Middle East. Jews, Arabs, Sunnis, Shia, Christians, Vulcans, Persians, Romulans, Harkonnen, whatever.
If they want to wipe each other out, good luck to them.
For as long as I live, I do not want to see another British man or woman (it's usually the working classes that get sacrificed) pull on a uniform and die in the Middle East.
Jadenim wrote: I don’t know if it’s really appropriate for this thread, but I think there is a big issue around where does the line stand between anti-semitism and criticism of Israel. Because whilst I have absolutely no problem with Jews (or any other race or religion). I have a big fething problem with the behaviour of Israel as a political entity.
Tangentially Radio 4 did a nice piece a few weeks ago on the lefts issues with race and religion. Israel/Judaism wasn't mentioned but focused on problems of selection of female muslim candidates and the lack of voices decrying 'negative cultural and societal norms' within minority communities.
This is the logical conclusion of the poison of identity politics.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/25 09:51:50
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Jadenim wrote: I don’t know if it’s really appropriate for this thread, but I think there is a big issue around where does the line stand between anti-semitism and criticism of Israel. Because whilst I have absolutely no problem with Jews (or any other race or religion). I have a big fething problem with the behaviour of Israel as a political entity.
Tangentially Radio 4 did a nice piece a few weeks ago on the lefts issues with race and religion. Israel/Judaism wasn't mentioned but focused on problems of selection of female muslim candidates and the lack of voices decrying 'negative cultural and societal norms' within minority communities.
To some extent we are all racist and bigoted at an instinctual level. It's an evolved trait to protect resources. It is our own higher understanding that fights against this trend. We all have the tendency to put groups of people into bins as it is easier for our brains to compartmentalise rather than consider people as individuals. We are more sensitive to anti-Semitism because of recent history, however there are plenty of other genocides and ethnic cleansing (Egypt, Turkey, Rohinya, Yemen and so forth) that has nowhere near the same level of impact and is less politicised. Hence there is a tendency to over-react when there is any association with those principles. For example Ketara fell into the trap that because they are funding organisations where individuals have been shown to be anti-Semetic that this should be condemned. But it just places everyone into the bin in that Palestinian organisation as anti-Semitic which is just as bad. Yes there are people there that are anti-Semitic, but that isn't helped by the Israeli governments approach to ethnically cleansing areas with Palestinians. That frustration and anger then becomes directed at the populace at a whole because the actions of that government are binned as the actions of a population (which is incorrect but is an evolved trait).
You cannot however solves the problems by avoiding anyone that is bigoted/racist by avoiding and not engaging with them. That is the Tory way (lock them up) etc, which solves nothing because it just generates more distrust, frustration and anger that then gets binned into being against the population as whole. This just perpetuates the cycle. On the other hand providing support to try and get across another view and fund areas where this type of sentiment is prevalent allows people to put forward another view. It is the carrot and stick approach. You provide funding to support a media organisation because the funding becomes the carrot and its withdrawal the stick. That allows you to start influencing the organisations agenda and hence the population and providing an alternative view of the causes of their suppression. The disadvantage to this is that you have to sit side by side by some rather obnoxious people, this is more aligned to Labour/Corbyn's approach. However that does not make that individual anti-Semetic/bigoted/racist and so forth despite what the Tories (and their gutter press) would like us to believe.
We can see this in how NI was taken forward. For years the Tories used stick/arrests/walls/border checks to solve a problem but it only exacerbated the situation. Only when people took the potentially unfavourable view of sitting down with such people that things were moved forward.
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
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"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
The problem being that the left has issues with being unwilling to condone or investigate issues which may directly stem from cultural or racial issues or tradition.
The problem with organisations and groups supporting Palestine is that they have tended to ignore real issues within Palestine regarding the treatment of women, children and LGBTQ peoples. 'Tradition' 'We don't understand their values' 'BUT ISRAEL!'.
In the UK we have issues with a hands off approach to areas in the North and deselection of women councillors where 'cultural traditions should be respected'. That should never be tolerated.
Howard A Treesong wrote: The last labour leader was a Jew and beat his own brother to be leader. If there was all this anti semitism in the party you’d think he wouldn’t have much luck or would have used his position to change things.So the Labour Party were happy with either Ed or David Miliband as leader....This continual focus that it’s specifically a Labour problem is nonsense. Suggesting that if the Tories did the same there would be crowing about it, really? The Tories repeatedly display bigotry of various sorts and it just doesn’t get much traction presumably because it’s expected of conservative sorts, but there’s a certain delight when it comes to accusing Corbyn and Labour of being anti semitic. We know that some cases of people like Ken Livingstone can’t open their mouth any more without saying something offensive but that doesn’t mean the labour ranks have endemic anti semitism.
I'm going to copy-paste some of what I've written in here before, because it very specifically addresses most of what you're saying. I'll spoiler it so as not to bore the masses who've seen it before though.
Spoiler:
I think (and this is speculation below) )that when it comes to anti-semitism in British politics, the left wing are far more susceptible to it these days (i.e. the last thirty/forty odd years)
The right wing used to be terribly anti-semitic, but it was tied in quite inextricably to the disdain the aristocratic classes had for 'the Jew'. I quite regularly read stories about the pre-war upper classes laughing at a Jewish banker falling off a horse, scorning Kind Edward's 'Jewish bankers', or even referring to ones they liked in anti-semitic terms ('He's a Jew but one of the good ones. If you want to negotiate with him though, make sure to get your own lawyer so he doesn't out-Jew you!')
After Hitlerite Germany, the deliberate boosting of Israel as a proxy to oppose the Soviet Union, the purging of Jewish influence from the communist movements, and the seizure of the Conservative party by the middle classes though, the Tories have more or less let go of their institutionalised anti-semitism. They're also more prone to play politics according to realpolitik, and the Israelis have significant military power and the only developed economy in the Middle-East. Human rights concerns are also less of a concern for them. Plus the American Jewish lobby is monied and powerful, and it makes no sense to hack them off.
So whilst you might find some dregs of the old aristocratic anti-semitic disdain in the corners, it's not particularly evident.
The hard left wing in Britain on the other hand, has never lost their historical anti-semitic edge, which has been substantially buoyed in turn by other regional (traditionally anti-semitic) Middle-Eastern powers being very free with cash for anti-Israeli promotional purposes. This has allowed the creation of something of a media juggernaut for attacking the Israeli state; its persistent, unrelenting, and documents everything bad the Israelis do (and invents stuff when they don't). This constant limelight of the Israeli/Palestinian affair (as opposed to most negative stories about human rights, which sink out the news after a week) in turn makes it highly visible to young politically aware types looking for a cause to champion. And those aforementioned regional powers are all too happy to splash the cash a bit to fund rallies and promotional materials.
The result, I think, is that when those younger types grow up a bit and go on to join the left wing parties, they take that mentality with them. Most of them aren't actively anti-semitic, and would be vastly offended if you called them such. But they do treat Israel that little bit differently to all the other human rights offenders, and it sinks into their politics and vocabulary. It's why so often you get left wing politicians getting jumped on for a very badly phrased statement. When you put that next to the more persistent hard left anti-semitic tendencies (who have ideological reasons revolving around Jewish bankers and various such things)?
The result is what you see. There's little in the way of deliberate 'Kill the Jews' stuff, but there is a slightly anti-semitic cultural by-product that has filtered into the left-wing political atmosphere that most aren't even aware of. And it is quite pervasive in that regard. The Lib Dems are just as susceptible to it as Labour; the difference is that the hard left edge isn't present to spur it on. When New Labour was in ascendancy under Blair and the mid to hard left were out in the cold, the more anti-semitic aspects were frozen out along with them. With the rise of Corbyn however, and the movement back to the left wing?
Well, the answer is what you see. People like Galloway (who really are anti-semites) suddenly find that they have allies in the heart of the party once again. And that's a concerning development; one which hasn't been helped by Corbyn doing his level best to suppress anything relating to it and whitewashing the only investigation which took place.
Spoiler:
So. Evidence of a lightly anti-semitic atmosphere pervading the Labour Party. I'll do more than a handful of blog posts or news articles, too (which are all ultimately opinion pieces).
1. Shami Chakrabarti was appointed to lead an enquiry into it recently. Generally considered to be a whitewash on account of the fact that she joined the Labour Party halfway through and then got a job immediately afterwards, her own report actually literally used the phrase 'an occasionally toxic atmosphere' with regards to anti-semitism in Labour, and "too much clear evidence... of ignorant attitudes". The report actually had to recommend that members refrain from using such appealing terms as 'Zio' in everyday discourse and communication. Most organisations don't usually have to actively recommend that sort of thing, you know?
2. The former Head of the Oxford Labour Club (which raises many prominent Labour politicians), upon ceasing to hold his post, said that many members 'have some kind of a problem with Jews'. No less than 32 former chairs and committee members signed an open letter opposing the OULC's decision to engage in a series of anti-apartheid rallies against Israel, describing them as ' little more than a gathering of propagandists seeking to dismantle the only majority-Jewish member-state of the United Nations.'
http://labourlist.org/2016/02/race-row-engulfs-oxford-university-labour-club/
"While the Labour Leader has a proud record of campaigning against many types of racism, based on the evidence we have received, we are not persuaded that he fully appreciates the distinct nature of post-Second World War antisemitism. Unlike other forms of racism, antisemitic abuse often paints the victim as a malign and controlling force rather than as an inferior object of derision, making it perfectly possible for an ‘anti-racist campaigner’ to express antisemitic views. Jewish Labour MPs have been subject to appalling levels of abuse, including antisemitic death threats from individuals purporting to be supporters of Mr Corbyn. Clearly, the Labour Leader is not directly responsible for abuse committed in his name, but we believe that his lack of consistent leadership on this issue, and his reluctance to separate antisemitism from other forms of racism, has created what some have referred to as a ‘safe space’ for those with vile attitudes towards Jewish people. This situation has been further exacerbated by the Party’s demonstrable incompetence at dealing with members accused of antisemitism, as illustrated by the saga involving the suspension, re-admittance and re-suspension of Jackie Walker."
Not quite so complimentary of the Labour Party when you actually read the thing, eh? They very actively state that Corbyn's leadership has led to the creation of a 'safe space' for anti-semitism to flourish.
4. Evidence submitted to the above enquiry included an ESRC research council funded set of polls of the Labour membership. 1031 members was the sample size. Of that, 52% agreed that anti-semitism was a problem in Labour. This fell by about 7% after the party was opened up to Corbyn's newcomers on the £3 vote scheme, and most Labour members thought it was just as bad in other parties.Most of them also believed that it was a tool being used to batter Corbyn with, but the fact remains that about half the party members initially polled thought that there was a real issue with anti-semitism within Labour.
https://esrcpartymembersprojectorg.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/balewebbpolettisubmission4chakrabarti3rdjune2016-1.pdf
5. The endless exposes of Labour activists or appointees suddenly revealed as holding horribly anti-semitic views. I won't bother with names or links, because I could literally spend an hour compiling a long list. Google is there for you if you want it that badly. Start with Ken Livingstone and Naz Shah, as previously stated, and work your down to the low fry like Jackie Walker.
6. Here's the testimony of the Chairman of the Parliamentary Labour Party and NEC:-
"Mr Cryer, Labour MP for Leyton and Wanstead, described a "seeping poison" and warned that future generations might not realise that when it came to Nazism, "we were right and they were wrong".
As chairman of the Parliamentary Labour Party, he sits on the disputes panel of the National Executive Committee, which rules on what members have "said, written or tweeted", he told the audience.
"I have seen some of the tweets from paid up Labour Party members and I am not kidding you, it makes your hair stand up," he said.
Some Labour members dismiss reports of anti-Semitism as a myth, he said.
"But you don't have to look very far before you see it's not a myth...and there's no place in the Labour Party for stuff like that."
Another MP, Wes Streeting, said a "rump" of anti-Semites in Labour should be "driven out" of the party.
"It isn't anti-Semitic to criticise the Israeli government," he said.
"Unfortunately we see too many people examples of anti-Semitic language being used in order to do so."
8. I'm afraid that I will repeat the statement of John Mann, MP and chairperson of the All Party group on anti-semitism, that "Labour has a problem with anti-semitism that must be challenged". It's literally his job to keep an eye on these things, and just attempting to brush it off as party politics doesn't quite fly when seen next to all the other evidence above. If you want an interview where he discusses his personal motivations, try this on for size:-
https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/john-mann-interview-1.432418 Not quite "rahrah down with Corbyn", is it now? Especially given that he's been doing it since 2005, long before Corbyn's ascendancy was anything more one man's dream in a comfy bed after a good fish supper in Islington.
I also provided another link just yesterday about two Labour Councillors driven out by anti-semitic taunts, and the complete ignoring of their reports by a Labour whip (who in turn is known for retweeting stuff comparing Gaza to the Holocaust).
The sources above involve multiple MP's and people who have been intimately involved with the Labour Party over the last few years. Please browse and consult them before dismissing the whole thing as 'nonsense'.
I don’t think anti semitism is growing in the UK over the last ten years, not to say it doesn’t exist at all, but ‘growing’ isn’t my impression.
By every recorded measure currently in place, it has been on the rise over the last five years or so. Everything from hate speech and crime figures, through to the actual conclusions by at least two Parliamentary Committees set up to investigate the topic.
https://antisemitism.uk/crime/
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/25 12:27:16
Howard A Treesong wrote: The last labour leader was a Jew and beat his own brother to be leader. If there was all this anti semitism in the party you’d think he wouldn’t have much luck or would have used his position to change things.So the Labour Party were happy with either Ed or David Miliband as leader....This continual focus that it’s specifically a Labour problem is nonsense. Suggesting that if the Tories did the same there would be crowing about it, really? The Tories repeatedly display bigotry of various sorts and it just doesn’t get much traction presumably because it’s expected of conservative sorts, but there’s a certain delight when it comes to accusing Corbyn and Labour of being anti semitic. We know that some cases of people like Ken Livingstone can’t open their mouth any more without saying something offensive but that doesn’t mean the labour ranks have endemic anti semitism.
I'm going to copy-paste some of what I've written in here before, because it very specifically addresses most of what you're saying. I'll spoiler it so as not to bore the masses who've seen it before though.
Spoiler:
I think (and this is speculation below) )that when it comes to anti-semitism in British politics, the left wing are far more susceptible to it these days (i.e. the last thirty/forty odd years)
The right wing used to be terribly anti-semitic, but it was tied in quite inextricably to the disdain the aristocratic classes had for 'the Jew'. I quite regularly read stories about the pre-war upper classes laughing at a Jewish banker falling off a horse, scorning Kind Edward's 'Jewish bankers', or even referring to ones they liked in anti-semitic terms ('He's a Jew but one of the good ones. If you want to negotiate with him though, make sure to get your own lawyer so he doesn't out-Jew you!')
After Hitlerite Germany, the deliberate boosting of Israel as a proxy to oppose the Soviet Union, the purging of Jewish influence from the communist movements, and the seizure of the Conservative party by the middle classes though, the Tories have more or less let go of their institutionalised anti-semitism. They're also more prone to play politics according to realpolitik, and the Israelis have significant military power and the only developed economy in the Middle-East. Human rights concerns are also less of a concern for them. Plus the American Jewish lobby is monied and powerful, and it makes no sense to hack them off.
So whilst you might find some dregs of the old aristocratic anti-semitic disdain in the corners, it's not particularly evident.
The hard left wing in Britain on the other hand, has never lost their historical anti-semitic edge, which has been substantially buoyed in turn by other regional (traditionally anti-semitic) Middle-Eastern powers being very free with cash for anti-Israeli promotional purposes. This has allowed the creation of something of a media juggernaut for attacking the Israeli state; its persistent, unrelenting, and documents everything bad the Israelis do (and invents stuff when they don't). This constant limelight of the Israeli/Palestinian affair (as opposed to most negative stories about human rights, which sink out the news after a week) in turn makes it highly visible to young politically aware types looking for a cause to champion. And those aforementioned regional powers are all too happy to splash the cash a bit to fund rallies and promotional materials.
The result, I think, is that when those younger types grow up a bit and go on to join the left wing parties, they take that mentality with them. Most of them aren't actively anti-semitic, and would be vastly offended if you called them such. But they do treat Israel that little bit differently to all the other human rights offenders, and it sinks into their politics and vocabulary. It's why so often you get left wing politicians getting jumped on for a very badly phrased statement. When you put that next to the more persistent hard left anti-semitic tendencies (who have ideological reasons revolving around Jewish bankers and various such things)?
The result is what you see. There's little in the way of deliberate 'Kill the Jews' stuff, but there is a slightly anti-semitic cultural by-product that has filtered into the left-wing political atmosphere that most aren't even aware of. And it is quite pervasive in that regard. The Lib Dems are just as susceptible to it as Labour; the difference is that the hard left edge isn't present to spur it on. When New Labour was in ascendancy under Blair and the mid to hard left were out in the cold, the more anti-semitic aspects were frozen out along with them. With the rise of Corbyn however, and the movement back to the left wing?
Well, the answer is what you see. People like Galloway (who really are anti-semites) suddenly find that they have allies in the heart of the party once again. And that's a concerning development; one which hasn't been helped by Corbyn doing his level best to suppress anything relating to it and whitewashing the only investigation which took place.
Spoiler:
So. Evidence of a lightly anti-semitic atmosphere pervading the Labour Party. I'll do more than a handful of blog posts or news articles, too (which are all ultimately opinion pieces).
1. Shami Chakrabarti was appointed to lead an enquiry into it recently. Generally considered to be a whitewash on account of the fact that she joined the Labour Party halfway through and then got a job immediately afterwards, her own report actually literally used the phrase 'an occasionally toxic atmosphere' with regards to anti-semitism in Labour, and "too much clear evidence... of ignorant attitudes". The report actually had to recommend that members refrain from using such appealing terms as 'Zio' in everyday discourse and communication. Most organisations don't usually have to actively recommend that sort of thing, you know?
2. The former Head of the Oxford Labour Club (which raises many prominent Labour politicians), upon ceasing to hold his post, said that many members 'have some kind of a problem with Jews'. No less than 32 former chairs and committee members signed an open letter opposing the OULC's decision to engage in a series of anti-apartheid rallies against Israel, describing them as ' little more than a gathering of propagandists seeking to dismantle the only majority-Jewish member-state of the United Nations.'
http://labourlist.org/2016/02/race-row-engulfs-oxford-university-labour-club/
"While the Labour Leader has a proud record of campaigning against many types of racism, based on the evidence we have received, we are not persuaded that he fully appreciates the distinct nature of post-Second World War antisemitism. Unlike other forms of racism, antisemitic abuse often paints the victim as a malign and controlling force rather than as an inferior object of derision, making it perfectly possible for an ‘anti-racist campaigner’ to express antisemitic views. Jewish Labour MPs have been subject to appalling levels of abuse, including antisemitic death threats from individuals purporting to be supporters of Mr Corbyn. Clearly, the Labour Leader is not directly responsible for abuse committed in his name, but we believe that his lack of consistent leadership on this issue, and his reluctance to separate antisemitism from other forms of racism, has created what some have referred to as a ‘safe space’ for those with vile attitudes towards Jewish people. This situation has been further exacerbated by the Party’s demonstrable incompetence at dealing with members accused of antisemitism, as illustrated by the saga involving the suspension, re-admittance and re-suspension of Jackie Walker."
Not quite so complimentary of the Labour Party when you actually read the thing, eh? They very actively state that Corbyn's leadership has led to the creation of a 'safe space' for anti-semitism to flourish.
4. Evidence submitted to the above enquiry included an ESRC research council funded set of polls of the Labour membership. 1031 members was the sample size. Of that, 52% agreed that anti-semitism was a problem in Labour. This fell by about 7% after the party was opened up to Corbyn's newcomers on the £3 vote scheme, and most Labour members thought it was just as bad in other parties.Most of them also believed that it was a tool being used to batter Corbyn with, but the fact remains that about half the party members initially polled thought that there was a real issue with anti-semitism within Labour.
https://esrcpartymembersprojectorg.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/balewebbpolettisubmission4chakrabarti3rdjune2016-1.pdf
5. The endless exposes of Labour activists or appointees suddenly revealed as holding horribly anti-semitic views. I won't bother with names or links, because I could literally spend an hour compiling a long list. Google is there for you if you want it that badly. Start with Ken Livingstone and Naz Shah, as previously stated, and work your down to the low fry like Jackie Walker.
6. Here's the testimony of the Chairman of the Parliamentary Labour Party and NEC:-
"Mr Cryer, Labour MP for Leyton and Wanstead, described a "seeping poison" and warned that future generations might not realise that when it came to Nazism, "we were right and they were wrong".
As chairman of the Parliamentary Labour Party, he sits on the disputes panel of the National Executive Committee, which rules on what members have "said, written or tweeted", he told the audience.
"I have seen some of the tweets from paid up Labour Party members and I am not kidding you, it makes your hair stand up," he said.
Some Labour members dismiss reports of anti-Semitism as a myth, he said.
"But you don't have to look very far before you see it's not a myth...and there's no place in the Labour Party for stuff like that."
Another MP, Wes Streeting, said a "rump" of anti-Semites in Labour should be "driven out" of the party.
"It isn't anti-Semitic to criticise the Israeli government," he said.
"Unfortunately we see too many people examples of anti-Semitic language being used in order to do so."
8. I'm afraid that I will repeat the statement of John Mann, MP and chairperson of the All Party group on anti-semitism, that "Labour has a problem with anti-semitism that must be challenged". It's literally his job to keep an eye on these things, and just attempting to brush it off as party politics doesn't quite fly when seen next to all the other evidence above. If you want an interview where he discusses his personal motivations, try this on for size:-
https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/john-mann-interview-1.432418 Not quite "rahrah down with Corbyn", is it now? Especially given that he's been doing it since 2005, long before Corbyn's ascendancy was anything more one man's dream in a comfy bed after a good fish supper in Islington.
I also provided another link just yesterday about two Labour Councillors driven out by anti-semitic taunts, and the complete ignoring of their reports by a Labour whip (who in turn is known for retweeting stuff comparing Gaza to the Holocaust).
The sources above involve multiple MP's and people who have been intimately involved with the Labour Party over the last few years. Please browse and consult them before dismissing the whole thing as 'nonsense'.
I don’t think anti semitism is growing in the UK over the last ten years, not to say it doesn’t exist at all, but ‘growing’ isn’t my impression.
By every recorded measure currently in place, it has been on the rise over the last five years or so. Everything from hate speech and crime figures, through to the actual conclusions by at least two Parliamentary Committees set up to investigate the topic.
https://antisemitism.uk/crime/
Your argument would have much more traction if you didn't focus solely on the Left.
But the partisanship of the evidence you have presented in that regard means that you are much more willing to overlook or completely ignore inherent racism, bigotry and anti-semitism which is the hall mark of the right wing.
Desperately trying to conflate anti-Israeli sentiment with outright racism, which might not be great but is a whole level different from the active and numerous racist parties that abound within the Right wing of politics.
To quote the old adage, "First remove the beam out of your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye."
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"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
I'm not sure, 'Hey, someone else anti-semitic too' is quite the robust defence you think it is. Saying, 'there's no anti-semitism in the Labour Party', and then when multiple well placed sources are presented which would indicate it is, responding, 'Well, it's elsewhere too' isn't addressing anything I'm saying. It's a sidestepping, a changing of the subject, an attempt to shift the focus of the topic in question. Whether it's true or not (I couldn't say, I've not seen much to support it, but that doesn't mean I've seen anything to disprove it either), it's really not got a lot to do with the question of 'Is there a subtle and soft pervasion of anti-semitism within the Labour Party currently?'
Even Jon Lansman, the founder of Momentum, one of the most prominent Corbynites right now said 'There is antisemitism in the Labour Party...There’s the antisemitism that arrives from the Israel-Palestine conflict. We all understand that when that conflict heats up, it results in dreadful antisemitism. It shouldn’t result in that, but it does....there is a lot of denial of antisemitism”. He also said that they should 'stamp it out, oppose it, make clear it is unacceptable. It has to be dealt with.' That's the sort of words and action that I would expect and respect from any moral Labour member, the desire to seek out such things and eliminate them. Not just dismissing and ignoring them on the basis of 'Well, the Tories do it too, leave Corbyn alone!' Which sadly, is how much of the dialogue goes.
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Ketara wrote: I'm not sure, 'Hey, someone else anti-semitic too' is quite the robust defence you think it is. Saying, 'there's no anti-semitism in the Labour Party', and then when multiple well placed sources are presented which would indicate it is, responding, 'Well, it's elsewhere too' isn't addressing anything I'm saying. It's a sidestepping, a changing of the subject, an attempt to shift the focus of the topic in question. Whether it's true or not (I couldn't say, I've not seen much to support it, but that doesn't mean I've seen anything to disprove it either), it's really not got a lot to do with the question of 'Is there a subtle and soft pervasion of anti-semitism within the Labour Party currently?'
Even Jon Lansman, the founder of Momentum, one of the most prominent Corbynites right now said 'There is antisemitism in the Labour Party...There’s the antisemitism that arrives from the Israel-Palestine conflict. We all understand that when that conflict heats up, it results in dreadful antisemitism. It shouldn’t result in that, but it does....there is a lot of denial of antisemitism”. He also said that they should 'stamp it out, oppose it, make clear it is unacceptable. It has to be dealt with.' That's the sort of words and action that I would expect and respect from any moral Labour member, the desire to seek out such things and eliminate them. Not just dismissing and ignoring them on the basis of 'Well, the Tories do it too, leave Corbyn alone!' Which sadly, is how much of the dialogue goes.
I'm not saying ignore racism on the left, I'm challenging you to acknowledge that it exists on the right. The only overt racist political parties are right wing, but you're so obsessed with Corbyn and the Labour party you're ignoring the racism in the establishment on the right as well. If you truly were seeking a balanced argument you'd be making the case that all this is terrible and should be dealt with. But according to your argument only Labour and the left have a problem.
If Labour truly has a problem with racism, then it's hardly being swept under the carpet is it? I'm sure that the recent expulsions of members like Tony Greenstein who is accused of anti-semitism will prove that the Labour party is not refusing to do anything, but is rather actively attempting to deal with this issue. Many of the investigations into anti-semitism in parliament have had Labour members either taking part or leading them, so its not true to say that Labour as a movement is ignoring the issue.
However, I also believe that the is an element of over exaggeration for many of these "offences" and that is politically motivated by people whose interests lie in trying to use any means to smear the left and the labour party.
Just like Brexiteers are tired of being accused of racism because racists voted in the referendum, I too am tired of being accused, or having the accusation levelled at Labour, that we are racist or anti-semites in denial who refuse to even deal with it when that is patently untrue, especially whilst everyone else is given a free pass.
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
Perhaps I should ask you first - why is the image anti-semetic to see if you understand or whether it is just reaction to the article?
Why is it anti Semitic? I don't know much about the subject and I don't see anything obvious.
It basically infers rich Jewish stereotypical bankers are supressing the masses whilst they play games. It is a lot more subtle than the types national front put forward etc. It can easily be construed as rich people playing games with the lives of the majority instead at first glance.
I'm not saying ignore racism on the left, I'm challenging you to acknowledge that it exists on the right. The only overt racist political parties are right wing, but you're so obsessed with Corbyn and the Labour party you're ignoring the racism in the establishment on the right as well. If you truly were seeking a balanced argument you'd be making the case that all this is terrible and should be dealt with. But according to your argument only Labour and the left have a problem.
It could be argued that Labour are dealing with it much more openly than other parties. The likelihood is that all parties have some issues in this regard. By being open and transparent about the argument it allows higher viligence and early identification. On the other hand we never hear about it from the Tories yet in all probability the problem will just be prevalent there. If they either bury it or ignore it (so it is never in the public realm) then that is by far worse because the behaviour is never challenged and it can take root because it isn't dealt with.
I'd prefer regularly open investigations on the issue to cut out the infection even if it makes a party look worse; than a hidden issue that can grow cancerous because it is ignored. The unfortunate side effect is that the cancerous agent is given free attacks on the group that is investigating any growths. However I'd agree that there is definitely a partisanship attack over the last couple of pages.
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"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
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"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
I'm not saying ignore racism on the left, I'm challenging you to acknowledge that it exists on the right.
Well, yeah. Neo-nazis are usually pretty right wing. But that isn't really what you want me to say, is it?
The only overt racist political parties are right wing, but you're so obsessed with Corbyn and the Labour party you're ignoring the racism in the establishment on the right as well.
I'm also ignoring it in the Liberal Democrats and Putin's party in Russia, as well as global warming, the Japanese defence policy, and many other subjects. I'm referring to something specific (anti-semitism within the Labour party). I'm not talking about an affiliated topic, or a more general spread. I am (believe it or not) permitted to write down my concerns regarding anti-semitism within the Labour party without spending an equivalent amount of time on the Green party. I'm not the BBC, and I'm not making any pretence about dealing with 'anti-semitism in British politics generally' as of this moment. I'm talking about the Labour Party right now. In the same way when I talk about Conservative economic policy, I don't feel the need to start considering SNP economic policy.
I mean, if you want to twist the subject in a wider direction, and kvetch about how other parties are anti-semitic as a related topic, and link in loads of evidence about Jewish Tory or Lib Dem or SNP councillors getting driven out and stuff like that, I'd be cool with that. It'd be interesting! Always happy to learn more. But if that's what you want, you need to stump up and bring some stuff to the table, not just toss off lines about the Tories being as bad. Put a case about the Tories together for me to read, then we can all sit here and complain about anti-semitism in British politics more generally. I have no problem with that.
But according to your argument only Labour and the left have a problem.
Not accurate. I think Labour has the largest problem out of the four largest parties; that most likely it's there to a level I've not heard of in the Tories or Liberal Democrat or SNP. I am however (as stated in my last post) perfectly happy to be proven wrong there.
If Labour truly has a problem with racism, then it's hardly being swept under the carpet is it?
I do have concerns in that direction, and so do very many senior Labour and ex-Labour politicians. The trend seems to be that when overt completely undeniable stuff comes out with a mountain of proof, action is taken. But that's very different to actively seeking out these things and uprooting them, to attempting to initiate a change in the corporate culture (so to speak). That's something I do lay at Corbyn's door personally, I'm afraid. Goes with the 'Labour Party Leader' hat. I don't think he's an anti-semite himself, but I do think that he's quite happy to ignore/look past them in a way that the New Labour lot (to add to their very small pile of credits) was not, and favour people who do hold anti-semitic tendencies because they ally with him on other views he holds.
Just like Brexiteers are tired of being accused of racism because racists voted in the referendum, I too am tired of being accused, or having the accusation levelled at Labour, that we are racist or anti-semites in denial who refuse to even deal with it when that is patently untrue, especially whilst everyone else is given a free pass.
And that's why you always tilt your lance at me whenever I mention it. You always jump between dismissing it as exaggeration or a smear, before indulging in a bout of whataboutism. You perceive it as a personal attack on you and your party to be vociferously counter-attacked, when in reality? I'm just drawing attention to it because it's anti-semitism. If I had the list of evidence as thick and as strong about the Tories right now, I'd have the exact same problem with them. If it was flagrant racism towards Germans by the SNP, or sexism from Greens, my outlook would be the same.
I suspect this is because of a more general perception you have of me as being right wing or always ragging on labour more generally. Which isn't actually accurate; I just tend not to bother commenting on the (many) flaws of the Tories because yourself and several other consistent posters engage in it so regularly that there's really little need for me to jump on the wagon. There aren't so many people pushing back the other way though; so it tends to look like I go for Labour specifically (when I really have no particular political inclination or preference). I'm naturally a Labour voter if anything at all.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Whirlwind wrote: [ However I'd agree that there is definitely a partisanship attack over the last couple of pages.
Make that the last fifty pages and the Tory party.
I mean, seriously, if I insisted on Labour's inadequacies getting mentioned every time someone slagged off the Tories, this thread would need to have another hundred pages added.
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Let's make sure we stay on topic and don't just whine about the other politics topics that have been banned, I don't want to have to delete any more posts. Thanks
I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own...
Ketara wrote: ... I'm not talking about an affiliated topic, or a more general spread. I am (believe it or not) permitted to write down my concerns regarding anti-semitism within the Labour party without spending an equivalent amount of time on the Green party. I'm not the BBC, and I'm not making any pretence about dealing with 'anti-semitism in British politics generally' as of this moment. I'm talking about the Labour Party right now...
The anti-semitism that is being levelled at many members of the Labour party appears to be due to some of their long held opposition to some policies and actions of the Israeli state. Is being opposed to the Israeli State the same as anti-semitism, some people are arguing that it is and attempting to conflate it to appear so. I think it is entirely possible to oppose Israel, and not be a racist.
It would appear according to the evidence that you have presented that some members of the Labour party are very much against some of the policies of the Israeli state and have used language deemed offensive by some people which I won't repeat here. But suffice to say I had not heard of at least one term and had no idea that another phrase could even be construed as anti-semitic. That is being dealt with, as I mentioned before, by expulsions from the party.
As to racism in the conservative party I would suggest that it is at least as equally prevalent and probably more so than any racism in the Labour party or on the left. For example, Anne Marie Morris' use of the N word during a speech, or her partner ascribing the education crisis to a high birth rate amongst immigrants, or Boris Johnson referring to flag-waving picanninnies or Douglas Ross’ divisive comments pertaining to Gypsy and Traveller communities , Alistair Majury’s tweet using an offensive term for Catholic people suggesting that all Catholics sexually abuse children, and Councillor Robert Davies posting a series of tweets alongside black and white photographs of a group of black people beside a cargo plane, with comments such as “keep your loin cloths with you at all times. Spears go in the overhead locker”.
I found those after only a couple of seconds searching, it not hard to start building a case that any political party has a "problem" and when it is repeated ad-nauseum as in the case of supposed anti-semitism in the Labour party it becomes a convenient stick to beat the party with.
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
Howard A Treesong wrote: The last labour leader was a Jew and beat his own brother to be leader. If there was all this anti semitism in the party you’d think he wouldn’t have much luck or would have used his position to change things. So the Labour Party were happy with either Ed or David Miliband as leader. I don’t think anti semitism is growing in the UK over the last ten years, not to say it doesn’t exist at all, but ‘growing’ isn’t my impression. This continual focus that it’s specifically a Labour problem is nonsense. Suggesting that if the Tories did the same there would be crowing about it, really? The Tories repeatedly display bigotry of various sorts and it just doesn’t get much traction presumably because it’s expected of conservative sorts, but there’s a certain delight when it comes to accusing Corbyn and Labour of being anti semitic. We know that some cases of people like Ken Livingstone can’t open their mouth any more without saying something offensive but that doesn’t mean the labour ranks have endemic anti semitism.
Good point. Are there rogue elements in the Labour party who are anti-Semitic? Absolutely, and they should be ran out of town.
But given the prominent positions Ed and David Miliband have had in the Labour party over the years, I'm not buying this idea that the Labour party is a hotbed of anti-Semitism.
As I've said before, If Labour are getting a hard time in the British press over anti-Semitism, then the free pass that the Tories got when it came to backing the apartheid regime in South Africa, should also end.
Our current speaker of the House of Commons being a prime example.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
The anti-semitism that is being levelled at many members of the Labour party appears to be due to some of their long held opposition to some policies and actions of the Israeli state. Is being opposed to the Israeli State the same as anti-semitism, some people are arguing that it is and attempting to conflate it to appear so. I think it is entirely possible to oppose Israel, and not be a racist.
By all means. As I posted some time back, there's nothing with opposing the Israeli state. I'm certainly no fan. I don't like the blatant racism against their arabic population inculcated in their state apparatus, I'm not a big fan of the degree to which religion mixes into their government generally, and I think they have a real problem with regards to leniency towards certain Jewish fanatical citizens who break the law with regards to house settlements. I also think they are too quick to brutal counterstrikes (but at the same time, I recognise historically why the chain of hatred makes that the case, and also that they are not alone in that in the region).
The weird thing is though, I managed to state all that with ever mentioning the word 'Zionism' or a single comparison to the Holocaust. If you look into the dossier I posted earlier on that Palestine Live organisation; you'll see no such delicacy. It's just screenshot of page after page of links and articles being shared about evil Zionists controlling the media, out to take over the world, committing the sorts of atrocities normally associated with WW1 propaganda of Germany, and so on. And that's the sort of material that floats about the left wing quite extensively; I've certainly heard of a few cases of the Lib Dems getting nailed on that regard along with the Labour Party.
I read one chap who put it perfectly. I'll paraphrase (I'm going from memory), but he essentially said, 'Lots of people challenged over anti-semitic remarks immediately start attacking on the basis that such accusations prevent legitimate criticism of Israel. But that's starting from a completely imaginary premise; nobody ever said you can't criticise Israel.' And he's right. It is the standard defence of anti-semitism, because it allows you to hide behind a cloak of 'Look at me being persecuted for expressing my freedom of speech!' There are a bare handful of people who use the same terminology with legitimate complaints; but the vast majority I have ever seen or heard of are simply converting the word 'Jew' into 'Zionist'. Therein lies the problem.
It would appear according to the evidence that you have presented that some members of the Labour party are very much against some of the policies of the Israeli state and have used language deemed offensive by some people which I won't repeat here. But suffice to say I had not heard of at least one term and had no idea that another phrase could even be construed as anti-semitic. That is being dealt with, as I mentioned before, by expulsions from the party.
I don't think it's sufficient action; and I think that the more subtle 'swap the word Jew for Zio and we're good' kind is currently flourishing because the incumbent leader is happy to turn a blind eye to any case which involves any form of deniability. Given that that was the conclusion reached even by his own enquiry, I don't think that's too unreasonable a view.
As to racism in the conservative party I would suggest that it is at least as equally prevalent and probably more so than any racism in the Labour party or on the left. For example, Anne Marie Morris' use of the N word during a speech, or her partner ascribing the education crisis to a high birth rate amongst immigrants, or Boris Johnson referring to flag-waving picanninnies or Douglas Ross’ divisive comments pertaining to Gypsy and Traveller communities , Alistair Majury’s tweet using an offensive term for Catholic people suggesting that all Catholics sexually abuse children, and Councillor Robert Davies posting a series of tweets alongside black and white photographs of a group of black people beside a cargo plane, with comments such as “keep your loin cloths with you at all times. Spears go in the overhead locker”.
I have no difficulty in believing that more general 'racism' in the Conservative party would be more prevalent than in the Labour party. I've seen some Tories come out with some nasty stuff over the years.
I am interested though, as to whether or not anti-semitism specifically is prevalent there; given the context of this specific conversation. I actually just did some digging, and the worst I could find was one immediately dropped Conservative candidate called Obaid Khan back in 2013/14, and one comment by Tory MP Andrew Bridgen:
Have you got anything you could add? Because given that you asserted the Tories are just as bad on the issue of anti-semitism specifically, I am having difficulty finding much material to support that conclusion.
Again - this is not defending anti-Semitism of any stripe. Simply pointing out the ridiculous hypocrisy here.
Yes, yes. And discussing female rape without mentioning male rape in the same breath, is of course, hypocrisy of the exact same level. Or ever discussing right wing terrorism without Islamic terrorism. etcetc
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To the best of my knowledge, I don't think a similar scenario has ever happened in the Labour party.
Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: If you know your British history, then you'll know that in 1940, the then defence minster, was forced out of office for being Jewish.
To the best of my knowledge, I don't think a similar scenario has ever happened in the Labour party.
Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.
We're talking about the last thirty years or so (contemporary politics). By all means, if we're going to start raking up what the Lib Dems thought in 1910 or suchlike, I have no idea what might fall out of the sack.
Have to agree with Ketara that it's a bit weak to bring up the Tories when the discussion is explicitly on anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. It's blatant Whataboutism.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: If you know your British history, then you'll know that in 1940, the then defence minster, was forced out of office for being Jewish.
To the best of my knowledge, I don't think a similar scenario has ever happened in the Labour party.
Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.
We're talking about the last thirty years or so (contemporary politics). By all means, if we're going to start raking up what the Lib Dems thought in 1910 or suchlike, I have no idea what might fall out of the sack.
Let me say that I don't give two hoots for the Labour party or the Tories. Secondly, Anti-Semitism should be ran out of town.
But what annoys me is the double standards, hence the historical example.
If people are going to rake over what Corbyn said in the 1980s with regard to Israel, East Germany, IRA, Soviet union, Hezbollah, or whatever, then it's only fair that the Tories should be reminded of their support in the 1980s for Chilean dictators, Saddam Hussein, and Apartheid South Africa.
Fair is fair, but we don't get that in the media. Remember the Daily Mail and Ed Miliband's father?
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Errr....okay? I asked you for your stuff on current Tory anti-semitism, which you mentioned in a manner as if there was no doubt about it and piles of evidence. I'm actually interested, so I'm mildly surprised that you want to end the conversation there.
I have no problem with anti-Semites getting the boot, but IMO, I think the problem of anti-Semitism being a major issue in Britain is off the mark.
If we look at the facts:
1. Ed Miliband and David Miliband. Pretty self-explanatory there.
2. The 2015 UK general election. Labour got 9.3 million votes. For argument's sake, let's say 30% of Labour voters voted for Labour because of their local MP, rather than their leader. So that leaves us with 6.5 million voters casting a vote for an openly Jewish political leader. I'm sure somebody else can do the math(s) but that a pretty solid chunk of the votes.
Some people would have us believe that Britain is morphing into the Third Reich, when the evidence shows that anti-Semitism is practiced by a tiny percentage of crackpots and racists.
Errr....okay? I asked you for your stuff on current Tory anti-semitism, which you mentioned in a manner as if there was no doubt about it and piles of evidence. I'm actually interested, so I'm mildly surprised that you want to end the conversation there.
If people are going to rake over what Corbyn said in the 1980s with regard to Israel, East Germany, IRA, Soviet union, Hezbollah, or whatever,
Did I miss that? I can't see it on this page.
It's been on previous pages and in the mainstream media, as well you know.
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"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Guys you have a user here very clearly and very patiently trying to discuss a specific mindset within a specific party. The whataboutism, random off topic tangents to the 40s, none of that is really showing the politeness that his effort should be rewarded with. If you don't want to discuss his topic then don't discuss it, but please dont just reference it, quote him expecting a response but then not engage with him at all . It's just not cricket.
I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own...
but that a pretty solid chunk of the votes.