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So what do people think about this Salisbury poising, where Corbyn said we should wait til we had proof before sanctioning Russia, May saying she had proof but wouldn't share it with Corbyn, expelling diplomats and then it turning out that we don't, in fact, have any proof:
I wonder will the Tories be so quick to question the party propping them up in government about the Islamophobic content it's party have been involved with int he last few days.
Herzlos wrote: So what do people think about this Salisbury poising, where Corbyn said we should wait til we had proof before sanctioning Russia, May saying she had proof but wouldn't share it with Corbyn, expelling diplomats and then it turning out that we don't, in fact, have any proof:
Is this why the Tories are smearing Corbyn so heavily right now?
That is not exactly saying there is no proof.
We have positively identified the particular nerve agent. We (as in the expert chemists working on this) also know how complex the manufacture, weaponisation, storage, transport and deployment of such an agent would be. That limits the groups capable of producing and using such an agent.
All the MoD is saying is that the analysis of the composition of the nerve agent cannot be used on its own to prove country of origin. It is worth pointing out that the Secret Intelligence Service (colloquially known as MI6) is not part of the Ministry of Defence, but answers to the Foreign Secretary. With that in mind, the sources and information available to SIS would not be automatically shared with the MoD, hence government "used a number of other sources to piece together the conclusions".
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/04/04 12:21:55
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Herzlos wrote: So what do people think about this Salisbury poising, where Corbyn said we should wait til we had proof before sanctioning Russia, May saying she had proof but wouldn't share it with Corbyn, expelling diplomats and then it turning out that we don't, in fact, have any proof:
Is this why the Tories are smearing Corbyn so heavily right now?
Did you read the article you linked?
Gary Aitkenhead, the chief executive of the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory (DSTL) at Porton Down, Wiltshire, told Sky News that the substance required “extremely sophisticated methods to create something only in the capabilities of a state actor. We were able to identify it as novichok, to identify that it was military-grade nerve agent.”
Mr Aitkenhead went on to say: “We have not identified the precise source, but we have provided the scientific info to the government who have then used a number of other sources,” some of them intelligence-based.
A British government spokesperson insisted that the Porton Down assessment was “only part of the intelligence picture”. He continued: “As the Prime Minister has set out in a number of statements to the Commons since 12 March, this includes our knowledge that within the past decade, Russia has investigated ways of delivering nerve agents probably for assassination and as part of this programme has produced and stockpiled small quantities of novichoks, Russia’s record of conducting state-sponsored assassinations and our assessment that Russia views former intelligence officers as targets.
“It is our assessment that Russia was responsible for this brazen and reckless act and, as the international community agrees, there is no other plausible explanation.”
Because I'm pretty sure what you're saying and what the article says are two very different things.
ulgurstasta wrote: Could you point out where the proof for Russian involvement is in that article?
Assuming that you're not just being obtuse, the bits where it talks about the 'wider intelligence picture not disclosed'. The article literally says nothing which alters the status quo of what we already know; namely that the PM says she know with a degree of certainty, from multiple sources, who was responsible.
The OP was implying that some new evidence had come to light revealing this to be untrue, and linked this article. Which says nothing about the veracity or lack thereof in relation to the PM's statement. It's a statement from a chemical weapons lab relating to a separate aspect, and a statement from the British Government saying 'Yeah, we have other stuff from multiple places'. Which hardly jibes with the original statement of 'it turning out we don't, in fact, have any proof'.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/04 13:18:35
And equally, things certainly seem to be a lot less certain than they certainly were a few days back, according to people who certainly should know.
FO have deleted a tweet this morning that asserted Porton Down has certainly established that the source of the agent was Russia. They now say "never had the task to establish the source of the toxic agent", which is fine, except they previously said they did.
It's certainly a bit murkier. I'm reminded of the aftermath of the Manchester bomb attack, when there was certainly a network supporting the bomber, because he couldn't have made it alone. There wasn't, and he did.
Edit - "It would be better to keep the Russian nerve gas stuff in the Russian nerve gas thread." Ah sorry, missed that update.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/04 13:33:03
ulgurstasta wrote: Could you point out where the proof for Russian involvement is in that article?
Assuming that you're not just being obtuse, the bits where it talks about the 'wider intelligence picture not disclosed'. The article literally says nothing which alters the status quo of what we already know; namely that the PM says she know with a degree of certainty, from multiple sources, who was responsible.
The OP was implying that some new evidence had come to light revealing this to be untrue, and linked this article. Which says nothing about the veracity or lack thereof in relation to the PM's statement. It's a statement from a chemical weapons lab relating to a separate aspect, and a statement from the British Government saying 'Yeah, we have other stuff from multiple places'. Which hardly jibes with the original statement of 'it turning out we don't, in fact, have any proof'.
You are missing the fact that Porton Down analysis was supposed to show that Russia had manufactured the novichok in question. In fact, the Foreign & Commonwealth office and Boris Johnson both claimed that Porton Down had proof that it was manufactured in Russia, so yeah I would say something seems "untrue" about this!
Take house prices. According to the author Kevin Cahill, the main driver behind the absurd expense of owning land and property in Britain is that so much of the nation's land is locked up by a tiny elite. Just 0.3% of the population – 160,000 families – own two thirds of the country. Less than 1% of the population owns 70% of the land, running Britain a close second to Brazil for the title of the country with the most unequal land distribution on Earth.
TBF that's largely due to the Normans so perhaps we are better off out of Europe.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/04 17:15:23
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
Kilkrazy wrote: Isn't part of a political party leader's job to avoid being manoeuvred into situations which enable him to be smeared?
To flip the point of view, how did Corby's attendance at Jewdas help mend relations with the overall Jewish community, or help to damp down the anti-semitism rumours around the Labour Party?
As a standing MP he is also meant to represent the views and meet his constituents. As has become clear to day this was within his own constituency so your could argue he is obligated to listen to their concerns/voices and so forth. I am not opposed to any politician sitting down with groups that have different (non-extremist views). You can always come to a better consensus by hearing all sides of an argument and making a decision afterwards. Ignoring elements is perhaps the fastest way of creating extreme views as they become more insular and protective of their group.
Actually it might come as a shock in defending May, but she didn't. She was much more savvy with her words than that. The problem is Boris the Clown ran off like a child with a toy telling everyone he had been definitely told that the Russian government were behind the poisoning. Even to the point of posting it on twitter (now withdrawn). That drags May into the issue because either May is excluding Boris from nationally important issues (given his preponderance to mouth off I wouldn't be surprised) or she allowed him to send out this misinformation because it was in his official capacity as a clown...erh sorry.... Foreign Secretary.
can't blame it on the EU now, so we'll blame it on those enviromentalists instead.
Course those will mainly be smaller farms.
.. which could then, say, be bought by larger richer farmers/landowners.
Who would have thought that the Tories want Wrexit to be about benefiting the wealth and their supporters at the expense of the poorer elements. They'll probably sell off land too for housing at lower rates to help Tory supported builders earn more profit too!
Spoiler:
This title is misleading. It isn't the wind farms that cause the pollution. It is that the area in question has many old mine workings and there are pools with heavily contaminated water. It's the land owners failure to clear up the land that is at fault.
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"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
Govt admits (for 1st time) it “likely” had contacts with Libyan Islamic Fighting Group & 17 February Martyrs' Brigade in Libya war of 2011. *These were the groups with which Manchester bomber Salman Abedi and his father reportedly fought in 2011
less than reassured by the ..err... stances..... taken make the twitter guy there as being totally reliable.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/05 06:58:35
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
But what the hell, populism has to have a target and if can’t be the EU now, may as well go for the Muslims(!)
As an aside, I have no idea why this was classed as a Newsbeat story, weird?
It's ironical how Leave.EU use their freedom to talk, to talk about not being allowed to talk about muslims, by talking about muslim things they are not allowed to talk about.
But what the hell, populism has to have a target and if can’t be the EU now, may as well go for the Muslims(!)
As an aside, I have no idea why this was classed as a Newsbeat story, weird?
It's ironical how Leave.EU use their freedom to talk, to talk about not being allowed to talk about muslims, by talking about muslim things they are not allowed to talk about.
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
But what the hell, populism has to have a target and if can’t be the EU now, may as well go for the Muslims(!)
As an aside, I have no idea why this was classed as a Newsbeat story, weird?
Leave.EU have just given the remain side a massive stick if there is another referendum... how totally stupid of them, but then no one ever accused the far right of being Mensa candidates.
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
But what the hell, populism has to have a target and if can’t be the EU now, may as well go for the Muslims(!)
As an aside, I have no idea why this was classed as a Newsbeat story, weird?
Leave.EU have just given the remain side a massive stick if there is another referendum... how totally stupid of them, but then no one ever accused the far right of being Mensa candidates.
That is true. We now have evidence that they really are bigoted idiots. But then it's not like there wasn't things they displayed that showed that before. Some people just chose to ignore it (or worse agreed with it).
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
I don't believe you could have found a jury in Britain that would convict a 78-year-old who was defending himself and his disabled wife from two armed burglars in their 30s.
I don't believe you could have found a jury in Britain that would convict a 78-year-old who was defending himself and his disabled wife from two armed burglars in their 30s.
I am pleased with the news and whole-heartedly agree with the decision, but I am very annoyed about the way this has been treated in the media. The police were doing their jobs; the guy killed someone with a weapon, the police have a duty to take him in to custody and interview him. I could understand the kerfuffle if they’d charged him or it had gone further, but it hadn’t.
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
Jadenim wrote: I am pleased with the news and whole-heartedly agree with the decision, but I am very annoyed about the way this has been treated in the media. The police were doing their jobs; the guy killed someone with a weapon, the police have a duty to take him in to custody and interview him. I could understand the kerfuffle if they’d charged him or it had gone further, but it hadn’t.
Yep, sounds like the police did exactly what they are supposed to do and that, in this case, the processes worked as intended.
The only thing you can hope to do when confronted by anyone angry about this person being arrested is try to explain why, for the sake of our understanding of justice, this was the correct outcome. Some people want to get angry about anything that goes against their sense of natural justice, oblivious to an understanding that natural justice is not justice.
US trade department drafted a wish list of trade requirements that would apply to post Brexit uk. None of it could be described as good.
As the article describes, chlorine washed chicken has become something of a totem with regards trading with the US.
Would all those people who voted for Brexit, desperate to take back powers from the EU, be happy to relinquish all those powers to the US in the hopes of getting a trade deal? Take back all those powers that we played a large role in, only to cede them to another body over which we will have no control at all? Isn't Brexit-land a wonderful place to be.
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I don't believe you could have found a jury in Britain that would convict a 78-year-old who was defending himself and his disabled wife from two armed burglars in their 30s.
I’m not clear why they needed to arrest the old man, couldn’t he have just made a statement? They kept him at a police station for two nights, who was caring for his disabled wife? The stress of all this could really harm his health.
The guy who died was already wanted by police, his whole scum family are criminals. I read elsewhere that he came from a traveller camp so undoubtedly the police didn’t have a fixed address for the villain and they all collude to cover for each other and prevent police finding anyone. He should have been in a cell not out robbing more old people in the night. He got exactly what he deserved. My concern now is that this hateful family of criminals that rob old people will target this old couple for revenge, they’ll live out their final years in constant fear of reprisal.
Because being arrested sets into motion certain legal rights and procedures.
Just one example, the right to a lawyer for the interview. If he wasn't arrested he wouldn't have the right to a lawyer without paying for that lawyer himself.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Due process has to be followed in any case. If they didn't arrest and subsequently release him there would be complaints about special treatment and police not doing their job.
He probably didn't need to be in for 2 nights though
Howard A Treesong wrote: I’m not clear why they needed to arrest the old man, couldn’t he have just made a statement?
I refer to my previous comment about natural justice not being the same as justice, and about people not understanding this.
Someone was killed. They HAD to arrest him. It was the only right thing to do.
He got exactly what he deserved.
Ease up there Judge Dredd, summary executions aren't a legal recourse on our streets just yet.
It isn't about what he deserved, it is about what is just, proportionate and reasonable.
