Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Count Dankula? Crap tasteless joke invoking a pug equals arrest, trail, conviction, massive fine and criminal record. Girl quotes dead friends favourite rap song as a tribute and gets convicted too?
No, we do not have free speech in this country.
Never have had free speech in the UK. We're one of the most restrictive western democracies in that regard.
The EU, however, has the Charter of Fundemental human rights in which article 11 enshrines the right to Freedom of Expression and information.
Count Dankula? Crap tasteless joke invoking a pug equals arrest, trail, conviction, massive fine and criminal record. Girl quotes dead friends favourite rap song as a tribute and gets convicted too?
No, we do not have free speech in this country.
This is the Tories you understand. They think that the way of dealing with a walnut is to get a lump hammer out and try and smash it into pieces and then wonder why everything else is broken. I have no issues with trying to stop hate rhetoric though I tend to agree that we are moving into thinking offensive is hate (which it is not).
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Count Dankula? Crap tasteless joke invoking a pug equals arrest, trail, conviction, massive fine and criminal record. Girl quotes dead friends favourite rap song as a tribute and gets convicted too?
No, we do not have free speech in this country.
This is the Tories you understand. They think that the way of dealing with a walnut is to get a lump hammer out and try and smash it into pieces and then wonder why everything else is broken. I have no issues with trying to stop hate rhetoric though I tend to agree that we are moving into thinking offensive is hate (which it is not).
The Count Dankula case has nothing to do with the Tories. It was an apolitical prosecution brought by the CPS. It was a case heard at Airdrie Sheriff court involving an offence relating to the Communications Act 2003.
Speaking of Count Dankula...This idiot journalist repeats the phrase "Gas the Jews" several times. Remember folks, context doesn't matter, so this journalist is also a criminal.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Speaking of Count Dankula...This idiot journalist repeats the phrase "Gas the Jews" several times. Remember folks, context doesn't matter, so this journalist is also a criminal.
Very nice.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Future War Cultist wrote: Well sure, the beginnings of this plan probably begin years ago. The timing was just unfortunate.
I honestly don’t care though. It’s no different to how we deal with every other country on the planet.
That is true, we'll revert to the same restrictions as every other country, it's just a shame that the EU is the one collection of countries, right on our doorstep with whom we travel and trade with the most, including Eire. The total cost to the country when you tot it up will be quite high I imagine.
Fancy a £6 charge every time you cross the border? There's plenty who live along there who will be pissed off about that I'm sure.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/27 07:37:34
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
100 Indian doctors coming to the NHS for a 3-year "Earn, Learn and Return" arrangement have had their visas denied because the non-existent (since yesterday) target for the month would be breached.
That's the problem with impossible quotas and stupid direction and understaffed departments; you force the staff to go after the easy targets which are usually the ones we want. But I bet no-one is willing to sink their career by pointing it the quotas are stupid.
The Whitehall department in charge of Brexit has failed to approach a single external company to obtain ideas of how technology will help solve the Northern Irish border issue. Brexit Secretary David Davis has repeatedly claimed that a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic can be avoided using new technology. Just last month, Mr Davis stated that “a whole load of new technology” exists to prevent the need for physical checks and controls at the border. Spider webs and magic But in response to a freedom of information request submitted by i, officials at the Department for Exiting the European Union admitted the number of companies it had spoken to about such technology was “nil”. It comes after a report from the Northern Irish Affairs committee last month stated the Government had provided “no evidence” that a technical solution to the border problem could be found. It will heap yet more pressure on Mr Davis, who was accused of trying to build an invisible border “out of nothing but spider-webs and magic”. The Government has committed to creating a “frictionless” border in Ireland after Brexit in a bid to avoid a return to checkpoints last seen during the Troubles. Failure to agree a suitable solution would see Britain revert to the so-called “backstop solution” of keeping Northern Ireland in the customs union and the single market, something vehemently opposed by the Democratic Unionist Party, which is propping up Theresa May’s government. Mr Davis made his first visit to Northern Ireland since he was appointed Brexit Secretary in July 2016 this week, where he claimed he would reach an agreement with the European Union by October that would keep the border “free from physical infrastructure”. But Labour MP and supporter of Open Britain, Chuka Umunna said: “Ministers keep trying to convince us that fantastical sci-fi technology will solve the problem of the Northern Ireland border, but now we learn they haven’t bothered to seek ideas about how this would actually work. “Unless David Davis possesses so far hidden levels of technical knowledge, such as how to build an invisible border out of nothing but spider-webs and magic, this is yet another example of the Government’s staggering lack of preparation for Brexit.” Evidence Tory MP Antoinette Sandbach added: “The Northern Ireland select committee report demonstrated there are no viable technical solutions anywhere in the world. Policy should be made on the basis of evidence.” Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs paid consultancy firm McKinsey & Company to help design the UK’s Brexit customs proposals only for it to be dismissed out of hand by Brussels. In its letter in response DExEU said: “From the Prime Minister’s Article 50 letter and the Northern Ireland and Ireland position paper published in the summer, to the Prime Minister’s speeches on our future relationship with the EU and the December Joint Report – our unwavering commitment has been to avoid any physical infrastructure, including related checks and controls, on the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland.”
BBC South East has found that not a single @DExEUgov Minister has yet been to see operations at the Port of #Dover. That’s despite concerns over traffic and a steady stream of other politicians coming here for briefings.
Good times.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
You know, with this free speech issue and the business with the Evans boy, i can't imagine why people might turn to the EU for human rights, as it's clear Britain has none.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
BaronIveagh wrote: You know, with this free speech issue and the business with the Evans boy, i can't imagine why people might turn to the EU for human rights, as it's clear Britain has none.
It's an aside, but that little boy is dead - his body just hasn't realised it yet. His brain is literally falling apart - apparently he only has 30% of the white matter in his brain left, the rest is just spinal fluid and water. There's no treatment that's going to bring that back. His parents are understandably clinging on to hope, but I can't see how there is any.
BaronIveagh wrote: You know, with this free speech issue and the business with the Evans boy, i can't imagine why people might turn to the EU for human rights, as it's clear Britain has none.
It's an aside, but that little boy is dead - his body just hasn't realised it yet. His brain is literally falling apart - apparently he only has 30% of the white matter in his brain left, the rest is just spinal fluid and water. There's no treatment that's going to bring that back. His parents are understandably clinging on to hope, but I can't see how there is any.
Exactly. No ethical hospital anywhere would advocate any other course of action than what is being done where he is.
The parents are not the patient and doctors must act in the best interests of the patient, not the parents of the patient. We wouldn't let a child die from blood loss because the parents didn't want them to have a blood transfusion and we should not keep a child technically alive with zero possibility of quality of life or treatment. It isn't even a case of keeping him alive in the hope that there might be treatment in the future. Short of growing him an entirely new brain and somehow being able to transplant that brain there will never be anything we can do for him.
The Evans case is a perfect example of real human rights, where the right of the child to die with dignity is held above the personal desires of the parents. Keeping Alfie alive can not bring him anything but suffering. Him being kept alive can also never bring his parents anything but suffering and a delay of them undergoing the grieving process. He is never going to get better, only worse. His parents need to come to terms to that but Alfie should not be kept suffering for however long it takes for them to do that.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/04/27 13:30:58
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
100 Indian doctors coming to the NHS for a 3-year "Earn, Learn and Return" arrangement have had their visas denied because the non-existent (since yesterday) target for the month would be breached.
The problem is getting worse partly because it has become harder to recruit EU staff.
This is a great way to spread British influence and soft power, and get a good trade deal with India.
Well, we're in agreement about Indian doctors.
Regular posters will know that another hobby horse of mine is global Britain. I read somewhere that in the next 30 years, 90% of global growth will be outside the EU.
That's reason enough to say goodbye to Brussels.
So what does Britain do? I'll give you one word:
India.
Tons of growth, a rising Middle Class that speaks English, and the opportunity to plug gaps in the NHS by grabbing 10,000 Indian doctors, nurses, dentists etc etc
Trade deal and fixing the NHS? Killing two birds with one stone here.
You'd be hard pressed to find anybody, from Land's End to John O'Groats, who would argue against more doctors turning up in Britain.
And before anybody says that the EU being bigger can get a better trade deal, more clout etc etc
Well, to the naysayers I say that by the time any trade deal been Brussels and Delhi gets through the EU grind, and by the time every 3 man regional parliament from Belgium to Estonia has had their veto,
10-15 years will be down the drain. And that's bad for business.
India.
and I'm not just saying that because I sold some wargaming stuff to some people there the other week
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
We've already explained multiple times that the percentage of growth is meaningless when one number is much bigger than the other, but instead of having the humility of admitting that you're clueless on the subject you double down on posting the same trashy argument again. You're a sham. While I don't agree with them, at least the other pro-Brexit posters make arguments that last longer than two seconds under scrutiny.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
The issue with India is that it's in the other side of the planet, has access to a wealth of other trading partners, while the same level of close cooperation and integral trade in physical goods and people (skilled professionals) would be dramatically less cost effective in the arenas that the EU currently offers. It will not work as a replacement for EU trade for the next couple of decades or more likely couple generations.
That said, diversifyung and expanding more trade to other areas isnt a bad thing, just dont look to India to be able to fill the coffers the way the EU can in the near future. Even if most global growth is outside the EU...those other areas have a lot of catching up to do, the EU's GDP is 8-10x that of India.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Vaktathi wrote: The issue with India is that it's in the other side of the planet, has access to a wealth of other trading partners, while the same level of close cooperation and integral trade in physical goods and people (skilled professionals) would be dramatically less cost effective in the arenas that the EU currently offers. It will not work as a replacement for EU trade for the next couple of decades or more likely couple generations.
That said, diversifyung and expanding more trade to other areas isnt a bad thing, just dont look to India to be able to fill the coffers the way the EU can in the near future. Even if most global growth is outside the EU...those other areas have a lot of catching up to do, the EU's GDP is 8-10x that of India.
I'm not accusing you of this, you're the innocent party here
but my critics on this forum, always seem to a) mistake Britain for Germany in that we don't make and export stuff on the German scale b) overlook the fact that there these things called boats and aeroplanes that allow us to travel to places like India, and shock horror, send goods on them as well. and c) they always seem to overlook the fact that Britain's strength these days is in services such as intelligence, finance etc. etc. which mostly gets done over this thing called the internet or something
I'm not attacking you, Vaktathi, because you're a fair and even person on these forums
but the other naysayers? They always overlook the fact that Europe is no longer the centre of the world anymore. It's Asia, South America, et al...
As a minor exporter of miniature wargaming supplies, where are my main markets these days?
Australia, New Zealand, India, Asia. That's where the money is.
Europe? Pah! barely gets a look in on my order book. There's one guy or girl in Germany who buys the odd old Magic card or 1980s Citadel villager from time to time, and that's as far as it goes.
I love Europe. Beautiful place, great history and culture. Gave us Kraftwerk and Democracy
But economic growth? Like the good capitalist I am, I'm following the money. And it's way past the Ural Mountains.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Vaktathi wrote: The issue with India is that it's in the other side of the planet, has access to a wealth of other trading partners, while the same level of close cooperation and integral trade in physical goods and people (skilled professionals) would be dramatically less cost effective in the arenas that the EU currently offers. It will not work as a replacement for EU trade for the next couple of decades or more likely couple generations.
That said, diversifyung and expanding more trade to other areas isnt a bad thing, just dont look to India to be able to fill the coffers the way the EU can in the near future. Even if most global growth is outside the EU...those other areas have a lot of catching up to do, the EU's GDP is 8-10x that of India.
I'm not accusing you of this, you're the innocent party here
but my critics on this forum, always seem to a) mistake Britain for Germany in that we don't make and export stuff on the German scale b) overlook the fact that there these things called boats and aeroplanes that allow us to travel to places like India, and shock horror, send goods on them as well. and c) they always seem to overlook the fact that Britain's strength these days is in services such as intelligence, finance etc. etc. which mostly gets done over this thing called the internet or something
I'm not attacking you, Vaktathi, because you're a fair and even person on these forums
but the other naysayers? They always overlook the fact that Europe is no longer the centre of the world anymore. It's Asia, South America, et al..
India accounts for roughly 2% of global trade (mostly to other countries in Asia). EU is 15% and is right at the UK doorstep. India is a mostly closed market for services of the kind the UK excels at, the EU is wide open.
Anyone putting India before the EU in the following 30, 50 or 100 years is delusional. Actually the notion that somehow doing business with one country blocks you from doing so with others is just childish. Trade is not a zero sum game.
Count Dankula? Crap tasteless joke invoking a pug equals arrest, trail, conviction, massive fine and criminal record. Girl quotes dead friends favourite rap song as a tribute and gets convicted too?
No, we do not have free speech in this country.
This is the Tories you understand. They think that the way of dealing with a walnut is to get a lump hammer out and try and smash it into pieces and then wonder why everything else is broken. I have no issues with trying to stop hate rhetoric though I tend to agree that we are moving into thinking offensive is hate (which it is not).
The Count Dankula case has nothing to do with the Tories. It was an apolitical prosecution brought by the CPS. It was a case heard at Airdrie Sheriff court involving an offence relating to the Communications Act 2003.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion but, please make it an informed one.
Apologies I wasn't clear. I wasn't really intending to criticise the specific case. The person basically was reiterating hate language and deserved to be punished which is what I was trying to say but mangled the sentence. The saluting dog is offensive but on it's own I wouldn't claim is a hate crime (otherwise half of the Fawlty Towers cast would be included). On the other hand saying groups of people should be gassed is a hate crime.
In terms of the Tories I was referring more to their recent attempts to monitor / shut down / someway control social media, internet providers and so forth. The issue with it is that it forces people underground and makes them harder to detect and subsequently can grow without our knowledge or challenge. Despite the issues with Labour and anti-Semitism, regardless of the views on how it is being managed, it is out in the open and hence is easier to lance. The real difficulty comes when it is hidden from view because it makes it much more difficult to treat before the cancer has taken over substantial sections of the body (for example I could point the President's Club as an example). The Tories policy has always to try and mash it with lump hammer until it goes away, however the collateral damage is that we lose more and more freedoms in the process and doesn't really solve the problem because it just manifests in a different way.
Tons of growth, a rising Middle Class that speaks English, and the opportunity to plug gaps in the NHS by grabbing 10,000 Indian doctors, nurses, dentists etc etc
Trade deal and fixing the NHS? Killing two birds with one stone here.
Isn't that akin to slavery though. Exploiting a group of people that we want from another country and then kicking them out once no longer required? Just the use them and abuse them? And this is before that by doing this we are exploiting the really poor because then the people in that country have less doctors/nurses and so forth. So the poorest suffer at the expense of the wealthy (and in comparison poorest in this country is by far better off than the poorest in India).
Europe? Pah! barely gets a look in on my order book. There's one guy or girl in Germany who buys the odd old Magic card or 1980s Citadel villager from time to time, and that's as far as it goes.
There's two issues here. Are you saying that the trade you are doing is already limited by the good you sell abroad. Do they captured at customs when you export them as second hand goods? Do you have customers telling you that the relatively small amount of duty (if any at all) is preventing them from buying more goods from you. If any are no then you are missing the issue that if that growth does happen you are not going to be limited in any way by being in the EU because that trade already happens and will continue to happen.
Secondly as we've talked about before, selling second hand wargaming goods with minimal transport costs is completely different to bulk manufacturing large goods where haulage costs are much more substantial. The reason a lot of our business is to the EU is because it is next door and easy to get to. Start placing tariffs or restrictions on that trade then it becomes a review of ongoing revenue costs vs the capital costs of relocating. If a business gets to the point where relocating will pay back after 15-20 years or so they will be sorely tempted to move because the relatively minor impact on having customs charges to the UK will be massively offset by being in the EU and not having to pay those costs whether in tax, paperwork, or general lorry park delays. It won't happen overnight, but there is a significant risk of slow migration (and in some areas it is already happening).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/27 19:36:01
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Tons of growth, a rising Middle Class that speaks English, and the opportunity to plug gaps in the NHS by grabbing 10,000 Indian doctors, nurses, dentists etc etc
You do realise that the reason the EU doesnt have a free trade agreement with India is because the UK objected to the Indian immigration requirements?
So you're saying that outside the EU the UK is free to do exactly what it prevented the EU doing?
Plus, plenty of people will object to more brown people. Just read the daily mail's online comments.
Very sad, as the parents' hopes and dreams are dashed.
Not unexpected from a medical angle, however.
Not unexpected, inevitable.
The parents hopes and dreams would have been dashed as soon as he landed in Italy anyway. Better for it to happen here where they have friends and family to support them.
This whole thing reminds me of a similar case a while back where someone was denied the right to have a patient undergo an experimental treatment which hadn't even been tested on animals and the doctor pushing for it hadn't even seen the medical notes of the patient in question.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Very sad, as the parents' hopes and dreams are dashed.
Not unexpected from a medical angle, however.
Sad for the family but probably for the best given the circumstances. I appreciate their anguish even if I don’t believe they were really thinking about what was in the best interests of their child.
What I don’t appreciate are all the people who have no connection to the family or any expertise whatsoever, getting involved by protesting and intimidating staff at the hospital. All the idiotic things said about this case by people in he media without any real knowledge of medicine or procedure, no insight to the decision making process, but making he most ridiculous claims and getting so angry using words like ‘murder’. I just don’t understand why people with no stake in this become so invested in something that doesn’t concern them, beyond their own egotistical desire to feel important that they’re protesting something. It’s like people who protest family planning clinics. They don’t care about the health or wellbeing of staff and patients, they just want to feel important and cast judgment upon others.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/28 08:43:39
Amber Rudd is looking ever more rudderless as she reels out ever more pathetic excuses.
We have gone from.
There were no deportation targets, to
There were local deportation targets but I didn't approve them and there were no national targets, to
There were national deportation targets but I didn't approve them or know about them, to
There were national deportation targets and I was personally sent the memo on them, but I didn't read the document.
In tomorrow's guardian
Amber Rudd uses the 'dog ate it' excuse after admitting she printed off the memo...
Now whether you believe her or not, it doesn't invoke much faith that she is taking due care and attention over her job and that if she doesn't read the memos the department are sending her then what else is she not looking at? Of course we know why she is playign this game. Simply that she is the only shield to Theresa May. So perhaps the bigger question is, did TM ever get memo's sent about targets? There also seems to be a significant leak in the Home Office.
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
The Windrush and immigration target problem also stems from May’s time at the Home Office. If Rudd has to go, you have to ask whether May is equally culpable and she doesn’t want to invite that questioning. If Rudd is supposedly good to remain in the post, then the whole thing can be down played and it won’t go further than that.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/28 09:40:43
The usual defence in this kind of situation is to blame your predecessor in the role. For obvious reasons that is impossible for Rudd.
Rudd is currently operating as a human shield for May. That might save her, ironically.
There is plenty more "Windrush" type immigration crap emerging, such as several Canadian citizens who have been living in the UK since the 60s.
This will tie into the Voter ID plan too. The same kind of documents will be needed to vote as are currently needed to move house, open a bank account or start a new job.
I would be very interested to know how many deportees each year are "real illegals" rather than Windrush type people who basically are law abiding citizens whose status has become technically illegal because the law has been changed and changed again to make them illegal.
Very sad, as the parents' hopes and dreams are dashed.
Not unexpected from a medical angle, however.
Not unexpected, inevitable.
The parents hopes and dreams would have been dashed as soon as he landed in Italy anyway. Better for it to happen here where they have friends and family to support them.
This whole thing reminds me of a similar case a while back where someone was denied the right to have a patient undergo an experimental treatment which hadn't even been tested on animals and the doctor pushing for it hadn't even seen the medical notes of the patient in question.
