Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

There are already signs of that happening.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:

You do realise that they haven't even published any data and other scientists have expressed doubts about the safety of the trial? Even if they do manage to replace the cells lost during Parkinson that is a very long way from recreating the majority of the brain.

You're talking about keeping a child in a vegetative state possibly in pain in the hopes that there MAY be a move forward in a treatment for a disease he doesn't even have.

I grant they have not published yet (it's still ongoing, so....) and even if they did, it would never be legal in the US or England, so that the conservatives in both places can shout how moral they are, and that God wants the sick to suffer as they offend him somehow. (which is why I generally discard scientists in the US decrying how dangerous it is, as some of them also decry all forms of stem cell research as the work of Satan and murder for profit.

Again, as you pointed out earlier, we don't know what disease he actually has, and while I grant that you're correct in that a treatment specific to his rather more significant damage is likely a long way off, the nature of the damage is similar enough that the Parkenson's treatment if administered when his condition first manifested, it might have at least slowed, or even stopped the degeneration. Further, that the judge made his decision based on something that's only partially true.

I don't think this discussion will ever have an end, as Americans and Canadians tend to be more optimistic than people in England, and thus both have very different outlooks on what constitutes good medicine.

This treatment doesn't even exist yet though, so how are we even meant to have administered it to him over a year ago?

Even if this treatment had existed which is again is a big if, as the research that the current trial is being based off hasn't even been seen by anyone outside of those working on it, it probably wouldn't have done anything to help in this case, Parkinsons affects a specific area of the brain Alfie had lost 70% of his there's quite a difference. And as ATCM said even if we did we don't know what caused his degeneration was it autoimmune or a genetic problem with his neural cells, because we could just get to the stage where he's constantly needing renewal or we're just waiting for certain areas of his brain to die off before replacing them. So keeping him alive for all these if and what could have been is just cruel to him, no matter how hard it is on the parents.

Guys, if you want to discuss the development of new treatments for brain diseases, there is a good bit of topic in the thread about not heeding warnings from SF.

There are contributions about animating pig brains, and the creation of human brain organoids, which are directly relevant to the discussion.

Thanks....

Well, allow me to offer my congratulations to Remain supporters on this forum. Your side has managed to keep us in the EU by hook or by crook.

The Sunday papers are full of the government ready to offer a deal similar to freedom of movement, and a deal similar to the customs union. I suspect they will be repackaged as Union of Customs or Movement Freedom. Add that to the transition period, and we have left the EU in name only...

So, despite not winning a referendum, and despite running one of the most inept political campaigns in history since Carter Vs Reagan, you did it. You guys did it.

The greatest vote in British political history for ANYTHING, and I mean anything, turned over by unelected peers, a Remain Civil Service, a Remain PM, a Remain chancellor, Remain MPs, and various court room battles, ex-EU has beens like Clegg and Kinnock etc etc

A great triumph of people power there.

Sarcasm aside, what does this mean going forward? Disaster. Utter disaster for the democratic process in this nation...

A black day for democracy...

Voter turnouts for GEs have been in steady decline since the 1990s. Disillusionment of the political class is at an all time high. Nobody bothers to vote anymore for red, blue or yellow Blairism, and the one time when people's vote actually means a damn, it's snatched away from them. So the people who voted in the referendum, some of whom were voting for the first time in years, have effectively been disenfranchised.

Does anybody seriously think that this will encourage greater political participation? No, it will shatter it. Remain have won a short-term pyrrhic victory, and the long term decline will continue.

And if you think Farage is bad, you ain't seen nothing yet...

People will turn to extremists. It's inevitable...

Brexit could have been the catalyst for great change in this nation, a bold vision could have propelled us on to face many of the big challenges that are coming in the 21st century.

Instead, we are offered nothing but managed decline by incompetent bank managers tinkering at the edges, locked forever in the embrace of a fading Europe that will soon be over taken by hungrier and more dynamic economies in Asia.

That's the future ladies and gentlemen...

I will bet every last miniature I own that in 10 years time, we'll still be on about a housing crisis that's never been fixed, a broken NHS, a massive immigration problem, a breakdown in law and order, and a constipated economy, all the while comparing our measly 1.1% growth to the 8% growth in Germany who will still be keeping the Euro low so they can flog a few BMWs to India or something...

Young people on here were threatening to leave Britain because of Brexit, to them I say, I'd leave anyway. It's nothing but a grim future here. I'm reminded of my youth and the bleakness of the 1980s...

As long as some spivs in London are making cash, and as long as some NIMBYs in the home counties are sitting on their homes they bought in the 1980s with help to buy, and counting the rising property prices, nothing will change in Britain. It's no place to be a young person...

The elites, with Remain as their useful idiots, have won...

Again!

 BaronIveagh wrote:

I grant they have not published yet (it's still ongoing, so....) and even if they did, it would never be legal in the US or England, so that the conservatives in both places can shout how moral they are, and that God wants the sick to suffer as they offend him somehow. (which is why I generally discard scientists in the US decrying how dangerous it is, as some of them also decry all forms of stem cell research as the work of Satan and murder for profit

That's not how it works in the UK. There is a body called the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) that reviews evidence that comes from certain treatments and determines whether they are appropriate to be used by doctors in the UK. If a stem cell treatment is shown to be safe, effective from full clinical trials then they tend to accepted and allowed to be used. However it is a more cautionary approach to ensure that we are not paying for something that doesn't actually work and came from one flawed trial. On the other hand if you are willing to pay then you can ask for any crack pot treatment available just not through the NHS. Some treatments do not get approved because the benefits do not outweigh the 'costs'. This might be an anti-cancer treatment that works only in 1% of cases and generally only extends a life span by a month or so. In this case it would not be approved for general use (though if the scientists prove a much better rate in certain cases it may be approved for that specific use). However the decisions are all evidence based not because they are determined to be the work of 'Satan'.

I'd also point out that many of your arguments don't really stack up when you consider the population at large. An adult can have a heart attack at 60 and be starved of oxygen for 10 minutes (about the time it takes for the higher brain functions to die). It is however possible to keep the body alive after this point as we have medical equipment that can just about do most of our functions for us (fed through blood supply, cleaning blood, pumping blood etc). The question then based on your arguments is why we don't keep everyone alive indefinitely in 'hope' that one day we can cure the brain death (really only immediate incineration/freezing/blowing up really means this isn't practical), grow a new heart (or whatever failed) etc? The reality is no country's government has the resources to do this. But it is feasible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

The Sunday papers are full of the government ready to offer a deal similar to freedom of movement, and a deal similar to the customs union. I suspect they will be repackaged as Union of Customs or Movement Freedom. Add that to the transition period, and we have left the EU in name only...

I would agree that we may as well stay in with this, but then I wouldn't be complaining.

So, despite not winning a referendum, and despite running one of the most inept political campaigns in history since Carter Vs Reagan, you did it. You guys did it.

The greatest vote in British political history for ANYTHING, and I mean anything, turned over by unelected peers, a Remain Civil Service, a Remain PM, a Remain chancellor, Remain MPs, and various court room battles, ex-EU has beens like Clegg and Kinnock etc etc

I think the reality is starting to sink in that we are too closely tied to the EU and we can't just pull up the drawbridge without significant damage to the UK. However I remain sceptical until I see what is actually said. May reiterated last week we wouldn't stay in the customs union and she will know that a significant proportion of her voter base just can't stand the idea of immigration. So she does run the real risk that this element of the population circle back to UKIP. That would leave them losing the next GE and perhaps for a fair while beyond. With a bit of luck that would result in the finally the end of the FPTP system and then Tories would never have the same advantageous jerry-mandered seats as they do now.

Given however the population that support Wrexit is shrinking it should not be a surprise that things soften over time (until we rejoin).

On the other hand if you are opposed to having a customs union and free movement then maybe you should support a second referendum?

My opposition to the EU needs no explanation on these pages, but yeah, whirlwind, I'm with you 100% on this

If we're going to stay in the EU anyway, we may as well go the distance. At least then we'd get a few billion quid from Brussels for a badger sanctuary in Oxford or something, or money to build a museum of historic Bulgarian tractors in High Wycombe or whatever.

and at least we'd get a laugh with some UKIP brawl in the EU parliament. Something. Anything.

Better that than this mockery, this sham, this betrayal of a Brexit.

A serious question for my fellow dakka members, be they Remain or Leave: if you're an average Northerner or whatever, and you never voted for decades, but you voted in 2016 when you knew your vote meant something, and you voted to leave and to stick two fingers up to Cameron; and now Brexit is going down the pan...

Does anybody seriously think that the Northerner, and millions like him will rush to the polling stations next election to be there at 7am on the Thursday?

To vote for a political class of all colours that is carrying on regardless, a political class that thinks the same on immigration, NHS, bombing Arabs, the economy etc etc

To vote for 30 more years of what we've had the last 30 years?

Hell no

Irreversible damage has been done to this country for short-term gain by a political class that offers nothing but managed decline and political constipation...

Corbyn the great hope?



His brand of socialism never worked in the 1970s, got ran out of town in the 1980s, was abandoned in the 1990s by Blair and Smith, and in 2018 can't even dent one of the most incompetent governments in British political history, led by one of the worst PMs we've ever had...

Good luck to anybody backing the Corbyn horse. I should know, I was there in the 1980s the last time that horse got sent to the knackers yard.

Brexit was the jolt that could have galvanised this nation for the better.

Instead we have managed decline and political constipation. You mark my words.

I suppose any society gets the government it deserves...

I don't see the point in voting now anyway. I live in a safe Labour seat (Sedgefield), so its not like I have a voice. The referendum was the only time when my Vote truly made a difference, and if we're cheated with a deal that means we stay in the EU in all but name, then I'll just revert back to voting UKIP or I won't bother at all.

On the other hand if you are opposed to having a customs union and free movement then maybe you should support a second referendum?

Oh give over. Calls for a 2nd Referendum were only ever a blatant attempt to overturn the result of the 1st Referendum. If we had a 2nd Referendum and got the same result, you would immediately start calling for a 3rd one.

There was never any realistic chance of us leaving the EU, the goal posts keep getting moved.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

The elites, with Remain as their useful idiots, have won...

Again!

Only one side of this debate has consistently and wilfully attacked or ignored any evidence contrary to their preconception of how Brexit would go and it wasn't remain.

All of the issues which have come up were clearly pointed out by a myriad of different groups before the referendum and then hand-waved away or outright ignored by those pushing for brexit. For example, the IOP and its equivalent bodies pointed to brexit posing a threat to the UK's science sector and, lo and behold, it has made the UK science sector less attractive as there is no guarantee of funding post-brexit. We can't even be sure of being able to continue to acquire nuclear materials, not only for research and power generation but also radioactive sources for use in medicine, due to the governments decision to leave EURATOM, for goodness sake.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

A black day for democracy...

No, April 10th 1932 was a black day for Democracy.

England fell fro the biggest election scam in history, and when the people who were running it won, they admitted they had no idea what to do.

This is the result.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Better that than this mockery, this sham, this betrayal of a Brexit.

A serious question for my fellow dakka members, be they Remain or Leave: if you're an average Northerner or whatever, and you never voted for decades, but you voted in 2016 when you knew your vote meant something, and you voted to leave and to stick two fingers up to Cameron; and now Brexit is going down the pan...

Brexit never had any real ideals to betray. It was literally the political equivalent of the underpants gnomes from South Park.



As for people voting to stick two fingers up at the establishment. Maybe they should learn that you should vote based on the actual issue at hand rather than your dislike of the person who is on TV.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Brexit was the jolt that could have galvanised this nation for the better.

This is not restricted by being in the EU or outside of it. The idea that our political bodies would suddenly have an epiphany after leaving the EU was highly unlikely given that those leading the leave campaign are looking to their own best interests rather than the countries. Germany is doing just fine in the EU. In the end if your voting choices are red turd or a blue turd as your political choices you still get a brown turd once the paint wears off.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I don't see the point in voting now anyway. I live in a safe Labour seat (Sedgefield), so its not like I have a voice. The referendum was the only time when my Vote truly made a difference, and if we're cheated with a deal that means we stay in the EU in all but name, then I'll just revert back to voting UKIP or I won't bother at all.

Even if you live in a "safe" seat its worth taking the time to vote IMO. It gives your MP and there party an indicator of the local populations attitudes and there engagement. Even if your preferred candidate doesn't win the result can still influence whoever does.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I don't see the point in voting now anyway. I live in a safe Labour seat (Sedgefield), so its not like I have a voice. The referendum was the only time when my Vote truly made a difference, and if we're cheated with a deal that means we stay in the EU in all but name, then I'll just revert back to voting UKIP or I won't bother at all.

All the more reason to support PR as a voting method. I feel your pain, as I live in a solidly blue area. It is not reasonable that any vote should be worthless.

Oh give over. Calls for a 2nd Referendum were only ever a blatant attempt to overturn the result of the 1st Referendum. If we had a 2nd Referendum and got the same result, you would immediately start calling for a 3rd one.

Well if you refer back to my previous thoughts on this I've always stated that by placing EU membership within the remit of direct democracy then yes we should continue to have votes on the issue, because that is what democracy is. The ability for the public to continue to have its say on the issue. I would suggest that should only stop when the results are consistently and signficantly (e.g. 70:30) one way or another.

 Whirlwind wrote:
All the more reason to support PR as a voting method. I feel your pain, as I live in a solidly blue area. It is not reasonable that any vote should be worthless.

I might have done, but what we were offered by the Tory-Lib Dem coalition was not PR. So I voted against it.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Whirlwind wrote:
All the more reason to support PR as a voting method. I feel your pain, as I live in a solidly blue area. It is not reasonable that any vote should be worthless.

I might have done, but what we were offered by the Tory-Lib Dem coalition was not PR. So I voted against it.

Even AV would be better than what we have. It wouldn't have benefited the Tories at the time however, so they shot it in the head, metaphorically speaking. Once UKIP started to leech their votes away, they might've changed their tune.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

The elites, with Remain as their useful idiots, have won...

Again!

Only one side of this debate has consistently and wilfully attacked or ignored any evidence contrary to their preconception of how Brexit would go and it wasn't remain.

All of the issues which have come up were clearly pointed out by a myriad of different groups before the referendum and then hand-waved away or outright ignored by those pushing for brexit. For example, the IOP and its equivalent bodies pointed to brexit posing a threat to the UK's science sector and, lo and behold, it has made the UK science sector less attractive as there is no guarantee of funding post-brexit. We can't even be sure of being able to continue to acquire nuclear materials, not only for research and power generation but also radioactive sources for use in medicine, due to the governments decision to leave EURATOM, for goodness sake.

Only one side of this debate has consistently and wilfully attacked or ignored any evidence contrary to their preconception of how Brexit would go and it wasn't remain.

Juncker: I want expansion into the Balkans and an EU defence force. Remain reaction: he doesn't really meant it, he has no influence, he's actually the janitor of the local school.

Macron: I want an EU defence force and Balkans expansion. Remain reaction: Sure, it will have soldiers and that, but it's not really a military their tanks and guns will be made from chocolate. And Macron is not the President of France.

Guy Verhofstadt writes in The Guardian: I want an EU defence force. Remain reaction: he used to play for the Netherlands in the 1970s. He has no influence, he doesn't mean it.

It's George Orwell from Remainers. Defence force = non military military, and expansion is really the EU contracting and rolling back its borders...





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I don't see the point in voting now anyway. I live in a safe Labour seat (Sedgefield), so its not like I have a voice. The referendum was the only time when my Vote truly made a difference, and if we're cheated with a deal that means we stay in the EU in all but name, then I'll just revert back to voting UKIP or I won't bother at all.

On the other hand if you are opposed to having a customs union and free movement then maybe you should support a second referendum?

Oh give over. Calls for a 2nd Referendum were only ever a blatant attempt to overturn the result of the 1st Referendum. If we had a 2nd Referendum and got the same result, you would immediately start calling for a 3rd one.

There was never any realistic chance of us leaving the EU, the goal posts keep getting moved.

I don't blame you for not voting. In fact, I would encourage you not to vote and tell everybody else not to vote. Disenfranchise the whole rotten system.

People may call it nihilistic, but for me it's the rational thing to do and the logical conclusion in reacting to a political class that is morally and ideologically bankrupt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Brexit was the jolt that could have galvanised this nation for the better.

This is not restricted by being in the EU or outside of it. The idea that our political bodies would suddenly have an epiphany after leaving the EU was highly unlikely given that those leading the leave campaign are looking to their own best interests rather than the countries. Germany is doing just fine in the EU. In the end if your voting choices are red turd or a blue turd as your political choices you still get a brown turd once the paint wears off.

Of course Germany is doing fine in the EU. A major manufacturing and exporting nation with an artificially weak currency? The Germans would have to take incompetence to a new level not to gain from that.

And if Greece, Spain, Italy, Ireland et al should suffer, well, at least huge swathes of their young can depopulate their own nations and head north to the promised land.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

GoatboyBeta wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I don't see the point in voting now anyway. I live in a safe Labour seat (Sedgefield), so its not like I have a voice. The referendum was the only time when my Vote truly made a difference, and if we're cheated with a deal that means we stay in the EU in all but name, then I'll just revert back to voting UKIP or I won't bother at all.

Even if you live in a "safe" seat its worth taking the time to vote IMO. It gives your MP and there party an indicator of the local populations attitudes and there engagement. Even if your preferred candidate doesn't win the result can still influence whoever does.

Having watched a debate in the commons the other day, it only confirmed what I already knew: our MPs are spivs, lobby fodder, dolts, careerists and SPADs who are out of their depth.

They are drones that have the personality and initiative sucked out of them, if they ever had any to beging with.

Vote for that? Never

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
My opposition to the EU needs no explanation on these pages

It really does. We know you're against it but there's so much vitriol and lack of critical though in your leave the eu at all costs stance, it's impossible to tell why you actually dislike it.

I do find it almost hilarious that you regard a 51.9% majority on a non binding referendum as being the point where democracy and common sense stop, because it's the point where you get what you want.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

It's George Orwell from Remainers. Defence force = non military military, and expansion is really the EU contracting and rolling back its borders...

And this compares to the far more blatant lies that Leave spewed and continues to? A golden land of milk and honey once we throw off the shackles of EU? We can just magic the money out of thin air and everyone will beat a path to our door with favorable trade deals in hand?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Having watched a debate in the commons the other day, it only confirmed what I already knew: our MPs are spivs, lobby fodder, dolts, careerists and SPADs who are out of their depth.

They are drones that have the personality and initiative sucked out of them, if they ever had any to beging with.

Welcome to Democracy. I'm sure you'll want to high tail it back to your beloved tyrants and slavery?

Herzlos wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
My opposition to the EU needs no explanation on these pages

It really does. We know you're against it but there's so much vitriol and lack of critical though in your leave the eu at all costs stance, it's impossible to tell why you actually dislike it.

I do find it almost hilarious that you regard a 51.9% majority on a non binding referendum as being the point where democracy and common sense stop, because it's the point where you get what you want.

I find it hilarious that I was naïve enough to think that we actually live in a democracy. Still, this Thursday, when we get 10% turnouts for the local elections, it will be funny to see the political commentators scratching their heads and wondering why nobody bothers to vote anymore.

No, April 10th 1932 was a black day for Democracy.

..I know a fair few of his later films were a bit rubbish but that's a bit harsh on Omar Sharif.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


I don't blame you for not voting. In fact, I would encourage you not to vote and tell everybody else not to vote. Disenfranchise the whole rotten system.

People may call it nihilistic, but for me it's the rational thing to do and the logical conclusion in reacting to a political class that is morally and ideologically bankrupt.

That's about the stupidist thing I've heard. The only outcome of this is that the fanatics/extremists etc will be given the keys to the kingdom. Such people will always vote for their twisted idealogy, they won't stop voting because they don't like people in parliament. And if such leaders get into power they won't give a damn about changing the political system to their own means (much more so than we have already).

A: I want to fix problems X, Y and Z by doing K.

B: K won't work because n, m...

A: Stop being so negative! It'll be fine.

*A tries to do K, finds out it doesn't work because n, m...*

A: Democracy is dead!

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


I don't blame you for not voting. In fact, I would encourage you not to vote and tell everybody else not to vote. Disenfranchise the whole rotten system.

People may call it nihilistic, but for me it's the rational thing to do and the logical conclusion in reacting to a political class that is morally and ideologically bankrupt.

That's about the stupidist thing I've heard. The only outcome of this is that the fanatics/extremists etc will be given the keys to the kingdom. Such people will always vote for their twisted idealogy, they won't stop voting because they don't like people in parliament. And if such leaders get into power they won't give a damn about changing the political system to their own means (much more so than we have already).

Let the fanatics have the keys to the castle. They're welcome to it, and good luck to them. It is the logical conclusion to the decline of the Western World and our current system.

The three stages in the cycle of Democracy:

1. An informed populace who are vigilant and eager to particpate and defend their democracy having overthrown the previous corrupt system in a revolution. Voter turnout is high, the rulers mostly act fearlessly in the public good. The early years of the American Republic are a good example of this...

2. A complacent populace with a system that becomes steadily more and more corrupt. The system still functions to an extent, but gradually erodes over the years as participation drops, the leaders stop governing to the good of the nation, and entropy gradually sets in. Europe 2018 as an example.

3. A corrupt and tyrant government, that pays lip service to democratic values and the rule of law. Populace pushed to far, and revolution usually ensues.

Repeat ad infinitum...

The price of freedom has always been eternal vigilance. We all know that...






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 reds8n wrote:

No, April 10th 1932 was a black day for Democracy.

..I know a fair few of his later films were a bit rubbish but that's a bit harsh on Omar Sharif.

On the plus side, at least we'll be spared your charts and graphs on the subject of Japanese car companies pulling out, or Britain's GDP going up in smoke.

Now that we're still locked into the EU, none of that will come to pass.

Though I do respect the time and effort you put into digging that stuff out, even though I usually didn't agree with it.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
My opposition to the EU needs no explanation on these pages

It really does. We know you're against it but there's so much vitriol and lack of critical though in your leave the eu at all costs stance, it's impossible to tell why you actually dislike it.

I do find it almost hilarious that you regard a 51.9% majority on a non binding referendum as being the point where democracy and common sense stop, because it's the point where you get what you want.

I find it hilarious that I was naïve enough to think that we actually live in a democracy. Still, this Thursday, when we get 10% turnouts for the local elections, it will be funny to see the political commentators scratching their heads and wondering why nobody bothers to vote anymore.

We live in a representative democracy. Nothing undemocratic has happened.

Harsh words have been exchanged on this topic in the last few years, and many people have fallen out with each other over Brexit or some other issue of British politics,

but dakka is still the best place for political debate.

and I respect the vast majority of people on here.

Despite Brexit going down the pan, I don't regret my vote, and I'd keep voting for Brexit until the end of time.

And Brexit going down the pan is not the fault of Remain voters on dakka - it's way beyond their powers and influence.

And at the end of the day, we're all here because of our love for miniature wargaming.

But I am disillusioned with the whole damn system, even though i should really know better.

Hell, only ten minutes ago, I was alerted to the fact that the Tories have received over a million pounds in donations from Russians, but Corbyn is somehow the Moscow stooge...

And then in my local newspaper, a Labour MSP is trying to save a Scottish school from crippling PFI payments, and is attacking the SNP for not helping, even though it was her party that introduced them to Scotland in the first place.

and I could probably cite another 1 million examples of that kind of thing...

That is the level of political discourse in the UK as things stand, and if the whole damn system goes down the pan, it'll probably be richly deserved.

I'd advise everybody to stick to wargaming, making cash, reading books and generally ignoring the madhouse of politics.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Despite Brexit going down the pan, I don't regret my vote, and I'd keep voting for Brexit until the end of time.

And that genuinely concerns me.

And at the end of the day, we're all here because of our love for miniature wargaming.

Exactly. Are you going to Carronade on Saturday?

Customs Union is the only outcome that can work with the NI border as it stands.

If the UK government goes for it, the Brexiteers might challenge May for leadership of the Tories. But I honestly think they're too chicken - they don't want to have to deal with all this gak.

If it's not a Customs Union capitulation, we're getting into dangerous territory with only 4 months to go and nothing concrete on the table for the future relationship. The UK government has made a shocking mess of the Brexit negotiations, it's really shaken me to see how far a country I once thought was serious and pragmatic has fallen.

Herzlos wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
My opposition to the EU needs no explanation on these pages

It really does. We know you're against it but there's so much vitriol and lack of critical though in your leave the eu at all costs stance, it's impossible to tell why you actually dislike it.

I do find it almost hilarious that you regard a 51.9% majority on a non binding referendum as being the point where democracy and common sense stop, because it's the point where you get what you want.

I believe it was Nigel Farage who said "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way."

 Da Boss wrote:
Customs Union is the only outcome that can work with the NI border as it stands.

If the UK government goes for it, the Brexiteers might challenge May for leadership of the Tories. But I honestly think they're too chicken - they don't want to have to deal with all this gak.

If it's not a Customs Union capitulation, we're getting into dangerous territory with only 4 months to go and nothing concrete on the table for the future relationship. The UK government has made a shocking mess of the Brexit negotiations, it's really shaken me to see how far a country I once thought was serious and pragmatic has fallen.

I think the negotiations could have been brought off reasonably well if May had not announced her "red lines" and sent her resignation letter right at the beginning.

This started a ticking clock which demands a resolution within two years of problems which can't be resolved within two years.

Crispy78 wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
My opposition to the EU needs no explanation on these pages

It really does. We know you're against it but there's so much vitriol and lack of critical though in your leave the eu at all costs stance, it's impossible to tell why you actually dislike it.

I do find it almost hilarious that you regard a 51.9% majority on a non binding referendum as being the point where democracy and common sense stop, because it's the point where you get what you want.

I believe it was Nigel Farage who said "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way."

He was pretty quiet about it after the fact, though.