Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
[

I admit to nothing. Brexit can, should, and will be a success. We're operating with one hand tied behind our backs because of Tory incompetence.

It's not dishonest.

We've had single issue votes in UK political history. Sein Finn in 1918 being a prime example.

The Lib Dems did nothing but bang on about the EU at the last election. I should know because I watched their manifesto launch. That's the sacrifices I make.

It can be summed up as thus: Brexit. EU. Brexit. EU. Brexit. EU.

I'm not going to be lectured by people who probably didn't even watch or read a fraction of Lib Dem campaign material.

I know what I read and witnessed, and people who didn't even follow it are trying to convince me otherwise?

Pah.

If it wasn't for people like me willing to take a risk, we'd still be living in caves and banging rocks together, whilst discussing the latest migration paths of mammoths.

Human history is full of people taking risks. That's why were talking about sending people to Mars, rather than trembling in our caves.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I wouldn’t worry about it. Brexit isn’t going to happen. Either we’ll still be in the customs union, single market and thus the EU after the fact, or article 50 will be revoked altogether and nothing will change. At this rate, the latter is better because the former would be used as an excuse to ‘rejoin’ the EU under even worse terms. You remoaners won. Gina Miller, the Lords, the multi-nationals, the wealthy areas of south east England, the SNP and Shin Finn will get what they want and feth the rest of us.

I’m angriest at myself. I fooled myself into believing that for just one time my vote actually meant something. I won’t bother doing it again.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Well, if we're using the Titanic analogy, then Remainers are refusing to board a perfectly good lifeboat because they don't like the colour.

There is no, and will never be, a Brexit that will ever satisfy Remain voters, because obviously they don't want to leave.

Even if May had a 200 seat majority, the DUP sidelined, and Barnier on his knees promising that the EU would pay Britain 100 billion a year for 100 years

it wouldn't be enough.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Davis has been side-lined by Olly Robbins, top civil servant, and arch Remainer, and all done with the blessing of the Prime Minister.

It's hard to be a minister for Brexit when your fighting with one hand tied behind your back.

 Da Boss wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I wouldn’t worry about it. Brexit isn’t going to happen. Either we’ll still be in the customs union, single market and thus the EU after the fact, or article 50 will be revoked altogether and nothing will change. At this rate, the latter is better because the former would be used as an excuse to ‘rejoin’ the EU under even worse terms. You remoaners won. Gina Miller, the Lords, the multi-nationals, the wealthy areas of south east England, the SNP and Shin Finn will get what they want and feth the rest of us.

I’m angriest at myself. I fooled myself into believing that for just one time my vote actually meant something. I won’t bother doing it again.

To be fair, you wanted to get what YOU want, and feth the rest of THEM, so my sympathy is extremely limited. I clearly remember being told that the harm that would be done to Ireland was of no consequence, and that people shouldn't even worry about it when voting. Well, fine. I don't care about your feelings over your idea of brexit being thwarted either. I want the least harm to my country and my family, and that's you guys staying in CU and SM. You got outplayed in the negotiations, but you never really had much chance - like a wasp negotiating with a truck windshield.

 Da Boss wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I wouldn’t worry about it. Brexit isn’t going to happen. Either we’ll still be in the customs union, single market and thus the EU after the fact, or article 50 will be revoked altogether and nothing will change. At this rate, the latter is better because the former would be used as an excuse to ‘rejoin’ the EU under even worse terms. You remoaners won. Gina Miller, the Lords, the multi-nationals, the wealthy areas of south east England, the SNP and Shin Finn will get what they want and feth the rest of us.

I’m angriest at myself. I fooled myself into believing that for just one time my vote actually meant something. I won’t bother doing it again.

To be fair, you wanted to get what YOU want, and feth the rest of THEM, so my sympathy is extremely limited. I clearly remember being told that the harm that would be done to Ireland was of no consequence, and that people shouldn't even worry about it when voting. Well, fine. I don't care about your feelings over your idea of brexit being thwarted either. I want the least harm to my country and my family, and that's you guys staying in CU and SM. You got outplayed in the negotiations, but you never really had much chance - like a wasp negotiating with a truck windshield.

I'm from Ireland. Brexiteers right on this thread told me we should only consider our own country, so I make no apologies for looking for the interests of my country to be looked after at the expense of your wishes. After all, it's turnabout and fair play.

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Let the fanatics have the keys to the castle. They're welcome to it, and good luck to them. It is the logical conclusion to the decline of the Western World and our current system.

The three stages in the cycle of Democracy:

1. An informed populace who are vigilant and eager to particpate and defend their democracy having overthrown the previous corrupt system in a revolution. Voter turnout is high, the rulers mostly act fearlessly in the public good. The early years of the American Republic are a good example of this...

2. A complacent populace with a system that becomes steadily more and more corrupt. The system still functions to an extent, but gradually erodes over the years as participation drops, the leaders stop governing to the good of the nation, and entropy gradually sets in. Europe 2018 as an example.

3. A corrupt and tyrant government, that pays lip service to democratic values and the rule of law. Populace pushed to far, and revolution usually ensues.

That makes the assumption that past predicts the future. Previous revolutions people had muskets and bayonets so the balance of power between civilian and military was a lot less. The technology scales are widely different now, the assumption that a corrupt, tyrant government wouldn't just gas its own populace if it thought it might lose control is what happens - and we have a modern example.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
There was no British Empire in the 1000s, 1100s, 1200s, 1300s, 1400s, 1500s, 1600s. Britain didn't exist until 1707.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Do not call me mate. I’m not your mate.

All that gak with how the commissioner is appointed is absolute bollocks. We have to rely on MEPs and heads of state deciding for us instead of a direct vote? feth that.

Yes, sorry sacks of gak were put in charge of the negotiations on our side, but their main problem was always trying to pander to the remain side with their pathetic fudges of staying inside eu institutions instead of declaring a clean break and taking the steps to seeing that out. That scum bag Gina Miller was gloating that one decision from one vote isn’t permanent and can be changed. Why doesn’t that ever apply to the eu? Once they decide on something it’s final and is to never reversed. fething slimely hypocritical bare faced cheek.

The only plus side out of all this is that once we’re taken into an eu army and the euro without public votes on it, I can say I told you so. That’ll be a great stick to beat remoaners over the head with.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Do not call me mate. I’m not your mate.

All that gak with how the commissioner is appointed is absolute bollocks. We have to rely on MEPs and heads of state deciding for us instead of a direct vote? feth that.

Yes, sorry sacks of gak were put in charge of the negotiations on our side, but their main problem was always trying to pander to the remain side with their pathetic fudges of staying inside eu institutions instead of declaring a clean break and taking the steps to seeing that out. That scum bag Gina Miller was gloating that one decision from one vote isn’t permanent and can be changed. Why doesn’t that ever apply to the eu? Once they decide on something it’s final and is to never reversed. fething slimely hypocritical bare faced cheek.

The only plus side out of all this is that once we’re taken into an eu army and the euro without public votes on it, I can say I told you so. That’ll be a great stick to beat remoaners over the head with.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
There was no British Empire in the 1000s, 1100s, 1200s, 1300s, 1400s, 1500s, 1600s. Britain didn't exist until 1707.

Now you're just arguing semantics. The British Empire started getting underway in the 1500's in Ireland and at the turn of the 17th century in the Americas. Just because it was still England at the time doesn't mean you can ignore the earlier imperial aspects. Up untill 1600 England wasn't doing particularly well economically either, just roughly average.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
There was no British Empire in the 1000s, 1100s, 1200s, 1300s, 1400s, 1500s, 1600s. Britain didn't exist until 1707.

Now you're just arguing semantics. The British Empire started getting underway in the 1500's in Ireland and at the turn of the 17th century in the Americas. Just because it was still England at the time doesn't mean you can ignore the earlier imperial aspects. Up untill 1600 England wasn't doing particularly well economically either, just roughly average.

When you're dealing with Britain, there has to be semantics because Britain is a union of two former sovereign nations.

Scotland can't be blamed for what England was doing in Ireland in the 1500s or in the Americas in the 1600s.

And what about your lot? The Dutch were quite powerful back then. Sailed up the Thames and sunk the Royal Navy

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Do not call me mate. I’m not your mate.

All that gak with how the commissioner is appointed is absolute bollocks. We have to rely on MEPs and heads of state deciding for us instead of a direct vote? feth that.

Yes, sorry sacks of gak were put in charge of the negotiations on our side, but their main problem was always trying to pander to the remain side with their pathetic fudges of staying inside eu institutions instead of declaring a clean break and taking the steps to seeing that out. That scum bag Gina Miller was gloating that one decision from one vote isn’t permanent and can be changed. Why doesn’t that ever apply to the eu? Once they decide on something it’s final and is to never reversed. fething slimely hypocritical bare faced cheek.

The only plus side out of all this is that once we’re taken into an eu army and the euro without public votes on it, I can say I told you so. That’ll be a great stick to beat remoaners over the head with.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
None of you stood up and complained when previous prime ministers were signing us to more eu control without a vote in Parliament.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
She only cared about parliamentary sovereignty when it suited her. All Remainers did. None of you stood up and complained when previous prime ministers were signing us to more eu control without a vote in Parliament. Now when the shoe is on the other foot it’s suddenly wheeled out as a defence. And again, “decisions can be changed, except when it’s with the eu, then it’s final”.

In an ideal word the referendum result should have been enough. Parliament can make decisions on our behalf most of the time but a referendum is supposed to be the people making the decision themselves above parliament. We were assured that whatever the outcome of the vote it would be enacted upon. But I smelled a rat when it was made ‘advisory’ only. That created a heads they win tails you lose situation for leavers.

I’m not going to bother wasting my time voting again.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
She only cared about parliamentary sovereignty when it suited her.

None of you stood up and complained when previous prime ministers were signing us to more eu control without a vote in Parliament.

In an ideal word the referendum result should have been enough.

I’m not going to bother wasting my time voting again.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
None of you stood up and complained when previous prime ministers were signing us to more eu control without a vote in Parliament.

Because that never happened.

All of the treaties which extended the remit of the EU were ratified by Parliament. It is required by EU law that all such treaties must be ratified by the member states before they become law.

The only way it can be ratified in the UK is for a bill to be passed in parliament.

With the Garden Bridge Trust now 90 days late in filing its accounts, Dan Anderson sifts through the evidence that is available to try and find out how £46.3 million of public funds was spent with nothing to show for it

As of today, the Garden Bridge Trust (GBT) is 90 days past the deadline for filing its accounts with the Charity Commission and is now also late in filing with Companies House. In the absence of these accounts, it is natural for people to ask: ‘Where did all the money go?’

In fact, we know quite a bit. As a specialist in new visitor destinations, who gradually became a critic of the Garden Bridge, I have sadly gobbled up every morsel of information that Transport for London (TfL) and the Greater London Authority (GLA) have provided through piecemeal responses to Freedom of Information (FOI) requests. Eventually, a picture starts to form. This is what we know:

First, a general point about the final bill, which is likely to end up at around £46.3 million.

Most of the expenditure on the Garden Bridge was authorised by then-mayor Boris Johnson through Mayoral Decision MD1355 (27 June 2014). Johnson directed TfL to provide the GBT with £60 million of public money — funded equally by TfL and the Department for Transport. Specifically, the decision says: ‘The government has agreed … to make a £30 million contribution towards delivery costs and the mayor has agreed to match this with an additional contribution of £30 million.’

However, MD1355 contained within it a crucial clause to protect the public purse. It goes on to say: ‘Payments to GBT will be staged to cover pre- and post-construction contract award activities, with conditions to be met before funds are provided. It is proposed that around £8 million each will be provided by TfL and the government in the precontract phase; if the project does not proceed beyond this stage, this funding will be at risk.’

In plain English, that clause is there to say the following: Any number of risks could thwart the project. The GBT may not be able to secure the land. It might not get a full planning consent. It may not raise enough private money to build or operate the bridge. We are willing to put up to £16 million of taxpayer money ‘at risk’ to resolve all of these ‘preconstruction’ issues. If the GBT gets to a position where it can let the construction contract — because who would award a construction contract if they weren’t ready to start construction? — then we will release the rest of the money.

That was a sensible precaution. It was intended to cap the taxpayer’s exposure to preconstruction risk at £16 million. It was then given more detailed expression in TFL’s funding agreement with the GBT, which specified the seven conditions that the GBT would need to satisfy.

Yet here we are (Figure 1) — more than £46 million spent and no bridge. What went wrong?



The clearest way to think about expenditure on the Garden Bridge is to break it down into its three main stages:

Expenditure by TfL before the GBT took over
Grant payments made to the GBT after the funding agreement was signed
Outstanding liabilities faced by the GBT since the project was cancelled
Direct expenditure by Transport for London
We know most about what happened in that first phase of spending because a full record of invoices was released by TfL in response to an FOI request (FOI-1243-1718). This amounts to some £9.7 million spent by TfL while the trust was still being formed.

The most striking observation about the detail of this expenditure (Figure 2) is how much money went to a single company: Arup.

As the lead consultant on the project, Arup no doubt carried the cost for a range of subcontractors, including Heatherwick Studio, which by the end of the project expected to earn some £2.7 million.

Even so, there is no question that Arup had an extraordinary financial stake in the Garden Bridge and its continuation. This is problematic because of the ‘revolving door’ suspicions that would later dog the project. TfL’s then managing director of planning Richard de Cani, would later be involved in critical spending decisions, after having accepted a new position at Arup (Figure 2).



Grant payments to the Garden Bridge Trust
The Funding Agreement between TfL and the GBT was signed in July 2015. That is when the GBT took over full responsibility for the project’s spending.

The detail becomes murky after that point. As a charity, the trust is not subject to the Freedom of Information Act and has been consistently late in filing accounts. TfL officers regularly attended the trust’s board meetings but, astonishingly, did not maintain a record of their minutes (FOI-1144-1718).

It is, however, possible to track the rate at which the TfL grant was paid out (Figure 3).



From July 2015 to March 2016, TfL released £27 million of grant funding to the trust. About £3.4 million was spent on legal, property and planning advice, but a full £23 million was spent on:

Progressing the design
Obtaining licenses, permits and planning approvals
Selection of trees and plants
River survey and ground investigation works
Procurement of contractors
Placing orders for materials
How that can amount to £23 million in just nine months remains something of a mystery, even to the TfL and GLA officers closest to the project. An exchange of emails in August 2017 between the GLA’s executive director of development, Fiona Fletcher-Smith, and TfL’s Andy Brown, reveals just how little they knew about how the GBT was spending its grant:

FFS: ‘Anticipating further questions, is there a schedule of payments from TfL to show how much grant was paid at each point and when the payment was made? Also, are the trust able to provide detail on what they actually spent our grant on (presume it is mostly salaries?)?’

AB: ‘I don’t have a detailed breakdown of what the trust spent their grant on but I think it is mostly professional fees for eg Arup, Bouygues, lawyers and other consultants.’

Note that a common complaint from applicants to other grant-giving bodies (eg Arts Council England, Sport England), is that the monitoring process is too onerous. These funders are routinely accused of micro-managing projects, expecting regular updates on how the money is being spent. That TfL did not come close to that level of scrutiny is another lesson of the Garden Bridge: TfL is not a fit-for-purpose grant funder of any mayor’s whimsical pet project. It shouldn’t be used that way.

We do know that 40 per cent of this spending came after the GBT awarded the construction contract. The letting of that contract has thus become controversial. It not only triggered the release of another £10 million in grants but is also the cause of the resulting termination costs that will likely add another £9 million to the bill. It was, in other words, a £19 million decision that has never been properly explained.

Remember that the Funding Agreement and its ‘parent’ Mayoral Decision were both predicated on the GBT satisfying a set of conditions before further funding could be released. Officials at the DFT never accepted that those conditions were satisfied. The National Audit Office was highly critical of the decision in its report, and Margaret Hodge didn’t mince words about it in hers:

‘I am shocked that the trust entered into this financial commitment with so many issues unresolved,’ she wrote, ‘and it is astonishing that the mayor, TfL or the Department for Transport did not stop the trust from signing this contract.’ (p30)

Despite repeated requests from the London Assembly, TfL Commissioner Mike Brown has never explained how Richard De Cani and his colleagues satisfied themselves that the funding conditions were met. Brown wrote to the Chair of the London Assembly Oversight Committee only to say: ‘We considered the evidence supplied [by the GBT], as well as the wider information we had available on the status of the project from our regular progress meetings with the trust, and determined that the conditions of payment had been met.’

That’s it. That’s the most complete explanation that we have about a £19 million decision that went horribly wrong. You have to admire the chutzpah.

While this nebulous statement patently failed to answer the committee’s question about ‘criteria and processes’ , it was enough to give Johnson the cover he needed to dodge some important questions when he was summoned to give his own evidence to the committee. When questioned by assembly member Tom Copley about the continued release of funding, the former mayor repeatedly quoted these lines from Mike Brown, as if they were the final word on the matter. It was a revealing insight into how one misleading statement can be used to support another until our flimsy grip on the truth is just lost in the fog.

Project termination costs
The final stage of expenditure relates to the trust’s outstanding liabilities when the project was terminated. This will amount to some £9 million.

These costs are significant because they were incurred after the May 2016 election. Johnson and his Conservative allies on the London Assembly have therefore suggested that this can be attributed to his successor Sadiq Khan’s year-long prevarication over the project.

That theory is not, however, supported by the facts. Most of the final £9 million is a direct consequence of the trust’s precipitous decision to award the construction contract. TfL’s Andy Brown says this plainly in an August 2017 post-mortem email.

‘The Trust’s main needs for the £9 million are:

To pay contractual termination payments to their contractors – primarily Bouygues
To pay back private funders who had agreed to release grant money before the beginning of construction, on the condition that it be paid back if the project never made it to construction – I have never been given a list of these funders.’
By the end of June 2016, according to another email from Andy Brown, ‘pre-construction fabrication [was] already underway’.

In other words, the trust began to incur these liabilities from the moment that it awarded the construction contract – under Mayor Johnson. Correspondence between TfL and the DfT confirms that at least 80 per cent of the liability was incurred by the middle of July 2016 – less than three months into the new mayor’s term – and it was fully spent by the end of September.

Short of cancelling the project on his first day in office, there is little that a new mayor could have done to limit this cost. Even if Khan had initiated the Hodge Review in his first month in office, most of the £9 million would have been spent before it reported.

Consequences?
Perhaps the most incredible thing about the whole Garden Bridge debacle is the fact that no one involved with it has uttered the faintest mea culpa, much less faced any material consequences.

Context is everything. Some have trivialised the Garden Bridge scandal by setting it in the context of total TfL spending. It is true that a £46 million write-off amounts to little more than a rounding error when lost in the scale of TfL’s £10 billion budget. That’s certainly one way to look at it.

Here is another:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
She only cared about parliamentary sovereignty when it suited her. All Remainers did. None of you stood up and complained when previous prime ministers were signing us to more eu control without a vote in Parliament. Now when the shoe is on the other foot it’s suddenly wheeled out as a defence. And again, “decisions can be changed, except when it’s with the eu, then it’s final”.

In an ideal word the referendum result should have been enough. Parliament can make decisions on our behalf most of the time but a referendum is supposed to be the people making the decision themselves above parliament. We were assured that whatever the outcome of the vote it would be enacted upon. But I smelled a rat when it was made ‘advisory’ only. That created a heads they win tails you lose situation for leavers.

I’m not going to bother wasting my time voting again.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

If it wasn't for people like me willing to take a risk, we'd still be living in caves and banging rocks together

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

Plus de Gaulle spent how many years trying to stop us getting in, suck it de Gaulle