Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
The Remain side have done nothing but try to sabotage the result for 2 fething years with legal challenges, court room battles, amendments, leaks, briefings, hard Brexit, soft Brexit, 20 more referendums etc etc
Can you reference any actual sabotage rather than daily mail headlines about sabotage?
They have never accepted the result or tried to do the best for the country.
They've accepted the result which is why so much time has been spent trying to find a way it could actually work. Not charging ahead with it is what's best for the country.
Now, the referendum should have been done better but no-one actually thought people would be stupid enough to leave.
How the feth can a government negotiate when Remain MPs are trying to force it to accept any old horsegak from the EU by removing a no deal option?
No deal has never actually been an option and everyone knew it. We're running out of time so we need to stop wasting it on dead end options.
You had your chance to stay in the EU in 2016. You lost. You had your chance to stay in the EU in 2017 by electing a party that would have reversed the referendum. You lost.
Everyone lost.
You already know the referendum was essentially a draw.
The Tories also lost places so badly from their brexit stance they need the getting DUP to hold them up, with such king maker's in play Brexit becomes so much harder.
Remain supporters had 40 years to make the case for the EU. 40 years. If the EU is so great, why didn't Remain win?
40 years of economic success made the case for being in the EU. Remain didn't campaign very well and made bad assumptions about the voters, but it's hard to campaign against an emotive campaign of anti-intellectualism. Everyone listens to the lie and has forgotten by the time it's corrected.
What could remain have actually done to convince a movement that was "sick of experts?
And like the good democrats they are, did Remain say, oh, let's accept the result and put national unity first. Let's not confuse or muddy the waters. Let's unite and help get a good deal for
As they say; you shat the bed, you clean it up. There's no unity over this and if you want us to fix it by doing something other than cancelling it, give us something to work with. Like a plan or something.
They moan about people not knowing enough about the EU, but don't lift a finger to inform people.
You get corrected about the EU constantly on here; it's clear you've got no interest in being better informed.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/05/24 05:59:22
I think at this stage a second referendum is unavoidable. Hopefully it would be a three choice question:
Remain
Leave to join EFTA (I think any deal they give will be pretty much the equivalent).
Leave everything.
With a mechanism to prevent a situation were option 1 wins even though options 2 and 3 received more votes.
I also have this (sinking) feeling that we will end up remaining in the end. And if it does, all us with concerns about the EU will just be swept aside and they’ll just carry on with further intergration and increasing budgets and no accountability with the help of the entrenched establishment here whilst we’ll be fobbed off, again.
I’ve got an opportunity to go to Australia, but I’m going to wait to see how this all pans out. If we leave (going to EFTA or something similar) I’ll stay here and make it work. If we remain, I think I’ll go. Some might say it’s hypocritical to complain about immigration only to immigrate yourself. Maybe it is, but at least I’ll have had to earn that visa.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/24 07:07:22
Thank you Future War Cultist, that is exactly the kind of pragmatic compromise that we need. Unfortunately our government are beholden to the extreme Brexit minority, who are blocking any hint of such a compromise.
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
It's like going into a restaurant, and you look at the menu, and the menu says pizza and ice cream, so you ask for pizza and ice-cream
uh huh.
Odd how none of this continues to be on your shoulders.
A more accurate description would be you were told -- by a bunch of liars and weasels -- that inside the restaurant there was free food, pizza that makes you lose weight, ice cream that makes you richer and scientists will be able to make cigarettes that not only don't cause cancer but give you longer and harder erections.
.. some people, traitorous moaning types -- pointed out prior to going into the restaurant that all of the above was absolute crap and all that actually was there was a group of menacing men with big knives, hammers and a mincing machine.
.. And then -- once the screaming, harrowing and disemboweling begins -- endless complaints that the scientists -- who said all along they couldn't actually make a cigarette that's good for you in oh-so many ways and pointed out that even writing that on the side of a bus doesn't make it come true -- haven't made the impossible thing that they were lied to about in the first place happen
And somehow that's not the fault of those who lied to them or those of them who fell for the lies, but the fault of those people who've been stood there all along saying this is what would happen.
On the plus side we can stop calling ourselves "remoaners"/whatever and just go with "see?wetoldyathisishowit'dbes" instead.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
Personally, as I have said should have been done for the original vote, we should also look for an absolute majority / super majority support of whichever option in that vote (i.e. endorsed by 50%+1 of eligible voters. On a 70% turnout this works out around 65% in favour). A single transferable vote should work, so people’s second choice can be counted.
An idle curiosity (not intended to start a debate), I wonder how many who would vote Leave-EFTA in that scenario would then chose to remain as second choice?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/24 07:14:23
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Honest to God, people, if they didn't like the answer, why did they ask the FETHING question in the first place?
Tory civil war.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
And they could have stopped it. If they believed in the EU so much, if they believed Brexit was so bad for Britain, they could have shot down Article 50 by sticking to their principals and accepted defeat at the ballot box next election as a consequence. But they didn't because they are cowards. Cowards to a man and woman who choose money and comfort over their political beliefs.
It's not cowardly. They're following through on the will of the people by leaving the eu. Rejecting the vote out of hand would put the lie to democracy more tha canything else.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
You don't need or want people like that on your side. Remain supporters should bless the day we had a referendum because now you know the true colours of your allies. They are rats.
That's why Trump wins and the Tories have been in power in Britain for most of the last 100 years: the progressive, the liberals, they are fething useless. Feeble!
Lots of emotion, very little substance. And that's why trump won. People's anger and fear was weaponised, and populists pointed to someone they didn't like.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
And this is what angers me and a lot of Brexit supporters: they had their chance to stop Brexit and they failed. And as a result, they should have got behind the nation and helped make Brexit work. They were duty bound to respect the decision. They're supposed to be democrats are they not?
It's almost like it's an incredibly complex issue to solve, rather than just jumping off a cliff. You'd know this if you ever bothered to read past your sensationalist headlines and looked at the details.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I would have respected a Remain victory in 2016. I, the Brexiteer, would have respected and defended the Remain victory, even though it would have sickened me to do so.
No, let's do it like for like. If remain had won, it would not be enough for you to merely 'respect' the outcome. You'd have had To get behind the EU 100% and accept everything about it with no concessions or compromise, and willingly embrace the hardest eu possible. And I genuinely doubt you have the moral courage to do what you insist other people should do for you. You're The coward.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
And I don't give a damn about what Farage said if Leave only got 48%. The majority of the country, just like in Scotland 2014 would have respected the result and went home.
Really?. So not a peep from you or shadow about the evil eu, ever again? Lol.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
But what did we get? Stabbed in the back by cowards and saboteurs who used court room battles, press leaks, unelected peers, and sabotaging the government's negotiating position from day 1 because they didn't have the courage to stop Brexit themselves, so they got other people to do their dirty work for them, like the cowards they are.
We got people holding the government to account. You know. Democracy. The thing you apparently claim to support.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
If they bind the government to accepting a deal, any deal, then the EU can offer us any old gak and we'd have to accept it.
Almost like no deal is a seriously stupid idea. Which you'd know if you read beyond the headlines.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Angry? You're damn right I'm angry. The last 2 years have been a shambles.
In my experience angry people are incapable of thinking rationally.
And it's almost like brexit was a bad idea if it was such a shambles. Not that you have the moral courage to consider such things.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
If Brexit fails, I'm not carrying the can for it.
If brexit fails, it reinforces the fact it was a terrible idea. And No, you do not get to play this walk away card. You voted for it, you wanted it, you own it. Brexit is your baby dinlt. You don't just get to knock over the chess pieces, gak on the board and walk away. This is your mess.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Remain supporters had 40 years to make the case for the EU. 40 years. If the EU is so great, why didn't Remain win?
Oh I forget, it was the Russians, the stupid people, the Klingons, and 1000 other reason why Remain lost.
How could they, when people were never interested in listening to the good things about the eu, and argued in bad faith. Remember, people were sick of experts. Add in 40 years of anti eu hysteria from the gutter rags, who can never be accused of anything remotely intellectually stimulating or accurate, and there you go.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
And like the good democrats they are, did Remain say, oh, let's accept the result and put national unity first. Let's not confuse or muddy the waters. Let's unite and help get a good deal for Britain.
Maybe they are. Maybe you should consider that your car crash cliff edge brexit is maybe a. Bad idea, and the best thing forward I said some kind of muddle like Norway, which most moderates on both sides would be reasonably happy with as the best of both worlds.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
They moan about people not knowing enough about the EU, but don't lift a finger to inform people.
People had enough of experts,remember? People like you are not interested in being informed, just having your skewed narratives and bias reinforced.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
They blamed the EU for decades for their own short comings, and then express surprise when people take them at face value.
Almost like it's more complicated than oyu make out.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
They sent a leaflet to every British household saying they would respect the decision, and then they moan when people expect that decision to be honoured. There's a name for that: Sabotage!
They respected the decision - we are leaving. Thryre still entitled to think it's a stupid idea. Had remain won, would you have gotten behind the eu? I think not.
Hypocrite.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/24 07:22:21
greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy
"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are"
Jadenim wrote: Thank you Future War Cultist, that is exactly the kind of pragmatic compromise that we need. Unfortunately our government are beholden to the extreme Brexit minority, who are blocking any hint of such a compromise.
The majority of MPs support the EU. 70%. 70 fething percent!
How can they be beholden to a minority of Brexiteers?
Because they're cowards. They could stop Brexit tomorrow if they wanted to, but they have chosen MPs' salaries over their principals.
...never accepted the result or tried to do the best for the country.
We absolutely have been trying to do the best thing for the country. The best thing for this country is to stay in the fething EU. It is better for our economy and industry. It is better for our position on the world stage. It is better for our health and education systems. It is better for our environment and it is better for the freedoms and opportunities it presents to us and future generations. I am a proud Britain and a proud European and I will not let you destroy everything this country has become for a bunch of jingoistic, rose-tinted, rabble rousing nonsense.
And if you succeed and drag us out of the EU and return us to the 1970’s, when we were a marginalised, bankrupt and decaying nation, riddled with division and unrest, you will own it. You brought this about and we will hold you to account. You cannot stand on your soapbox, professing what a great thing this will be and then try and slink away, when we are shown to be right and you have crippled our nation.
You had your chance to stay in the EU in 2016. You lost. You had your chance to stay in the EU in 2017 by electing a party that would have reversed the referendum. You lost.
2 fething chances. Two
Is this best of 5 or something?
Remain supporters had 40 years to make the case for the EU. 40 years. If the EU is so great, why didn't Remain win?
Oh I forget, it was the Russians, the stupid people, the Klingons, and 1000 other reason why Remain lost.
And like the good democrats they are, did Remain say, oh, let's accept the result and put national unity first. Let's not confuse or muddy the waters. Let's unite and help get a good deal for Britain.
Did they do that? Did they hell.
They ran to the lawyers, they leaked to the press, they ran to the EU and vowed to support Brussels come what may. They blamed people like me for answering a question they asked and for following rules they wrote in the first place.
They complain about the 52%, even though they set the margin of victory at 50% + 1 vote.
They moan about people not knowing enough about the EU, but don't lift a finger to inform people.
They blamed the EU for decades for their own short comings, and then express surprise when people take them at face value.
They sent a leaflet to every British household saying they would respect the decision, and then they moan when people expect that decision to be honoured.
There's a name for that: Sabotage!
Please explain why I would vote for the party that sold me up a river in 2010 as a student going to university?
And you're doing that thing again where making sure things go through the British democratic motions, is somehow undemocratic and sabotage?
Also something about Farage talking about rerunning it if remain won by a couple of percent, but it's sabotage when remainers suggest it.
Who cares what Farage thinks. He is not and was never an MP. He has as much power as you and I. None!
Personally, as I have said should have been done for the original vote, we should also look for an absolute majority / super majority support of whichever option in that vote (i.e. endorsed by 50%+1 of eligible voters. On a 70% turnout this works out around 65% in favour). A single transferable vote should work, so people’s second choice can be counted.
An idle curiosity (not intended to start a debate), I wonder how many who would vote Leave-EFTA in that scenario would then chose to remain as second choice?
And who's fault is it that there wasn't a 66% vote needed clause built into the Brexit referendum?
Is it my fault? The man with no power? Or the 650 MPs who make the rules?
I played by the rules, but the people who wrote the rulebook blame people like me for following the rules...
It's like going into a restaurant, and you look at the menu, and the menu says pizza and ice cream, so you ask for pizza and ice-cream
uh huh.
Odd how none of this continues to be on your shoulders.
A more accurate description would be you were told -- by a bunch of liars and weasels -- that inside the restaurant there was free food, pizza that makes you lose weight, ice cream that makes you richer and scientists will be able to make cigarettes that not only don't cause cancer but give you longer and harder erections.
.. some people, traitorous moaning types -- pointed out prior to going into the restaurant that all of the above was absolute crap and all that actually was there was a group of menacing men with big knives, hammers and a mincing machine.
.. And then -- once the screaming, harrowing and disemboweling begins -- endless complaints that the scientists -- who said all along they couldn't actually make a cigarette that's good for you in oh-so many ways and pointed out that even writing that on the side of a bus doesn't make it come true -- haven't made the impossible thing that they were lied to about in the first place happen
And somehow that's not the fault of those who lied to them or those of them who fell for the lies, but the fault of those people who've been stood there all along saying this is what would happen.
On the plus side we can stop calling ourselves "remoaners"/whatever and just go with "see?wetoldyathisishowit'dbes" instead.
I never sat in the House of Commons and voted to hold a referendum. I never sent a leaflet to every household in Britain, and I sure as hell didn't run a Remain campaign that was one of the worst in British political history.
They asked me a question, I and 17 million people gave an answer.
I suppose it was naïve of us to assume that it might have occurred to them that Brexit might have won and that they would plan for this and act accordingly?
When MPs sign up for the job, is it wrong for me and you to assume that these MPs are aware that they might have to make difficult decisions? Life or death?
Now I'm getting told that I shouldn't have voted for Brexit because our MPs are gak.
By that logic nobody should ever vote because our MPs are incapable of doing anything, even if we stayed in the EU.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/05/24 09:11:06
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
No, we’re saying you shouldn’t have voted Brexit, because you were sold a pack of lies. By liars with neither the means nor intention of following through on them.
You shat the bed. You change the sheets. Spit-spot.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Future War Cultist wrote: I think at this stage a second referendum is unavoidable. Hopefully it would be a three choice question:
Remain
Leave to join EFTA (I think any deal they give will be pretty much the equivalent).
Leave everything.
With a mechanism to prevent a situation were option 1 wins even though options 2 and 3 received more votes.
I also have this (sinking) feeling that we will end up remaining in the end. And if it does, all us with concerns about the EU will just be swept aside and they’ll just carry on with further intergration and increasing budgets and no accountability with the help of the entrenched establishment here whilst we’ll be fobbed off, again.
I’ve got an opportunity to go to Australia, but I’m going to wait to see how this all pans out. If we leave (going to EFTA or something similar) I’ll stay here and make it work. If we remain, I think I’ll go. Some might say it’s hypocritical to complain about immigration only to immigrate yourself. Maybe it is, but at least I’ll have had to earn that visa.
If there is another referendum, and they don't put 3 questions on the ballot, you and I will probably get blamed for other people who couldn't do the jobs they are paid to do.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: No, we’re saying you shouldn’t have voted Brexit, because you were sold a pack of lies. By liars with neither the means nor intention of following through on them.
You shat the bed. You change the sheets. Spit-spot.
By that logic, we shouldn't stay in the EU either, because history has shown us that our MPs have no idea how the EU works and make bad decisions even when we were in.
Remember David Cameron's campaign to stop Juncker getting the job? Cameron believed there was wide opposition and lo and behold, Cameron ended up being the only man to oppose Juncker's appointment.
The Remain side have done nothing but try to sabotage the result for 2 fething years with legal challenges, court room battles, amendments, leaks, briefings, hard Brexit, soft Brexit, 20 more referendums etc etc
Can you reference any actual sabotage rather than daily mail headlines about sabotage?
They have never accepted the result or tried to do the best for the country.
They've accepted the result which is why so much time has been spent trying to find a way it could actually work. Not charging ahead with it is what's best for the country.
Now, the referendum should have been done better but no-one actually thought people would be stupid enough to leave.
How the feth can a government negotiate when Remain MPs are trying to force it to accept any old horsegak from the EU by removing a no deal option?
No deal has never actually been an option and everyone knew it. We're running out of time so we need to stop wasting it on dead end options.
You had your chance to stay in the EU in 2016. You lost. You had your chance to stay in the EU in 2017 by electing a party that would have reversed the referendum. You lost.
Everyone lost.
You already know the referendum was essentially a draw.
The Tories also lost places so badly from their brexit stance they need the getting DUP to hold them up, with such king maker's in play Brexit becomes so much harder.
Remain supporters had 40 years to make the case for the EU. 40 years. If the EU is so great, why didn't Remain win?
40 years of economic success made the case for being in the EU. Remain didn't campaign very well and made bad assumptions about the voters, but it's hard to campaign against an emotive campaign of anti-intellectualism. Everyone listens to the lie and has forgotten by the time it's corrected.
What could remain have actually done to convince a movement that was "sick of experts?
And like the good democrats they are, did Remain say, oh, let's accept the result and put national unity first. Let's not confuse or muddy the waters. Let's unite and help get a good deal for
As they say; you shat the bed, you clean it up. There's no unity over this and if you want us to fix it by doing something other than cancelling it, give us something to work with. Like a plan or something.
They moan about people not knowing enough about the EU, but don't lift a finger to inform people.
You get corrected about the EU constantly on here; it's clear you've got no interest in being better informed.
All I see is a load of excuses from people who wrote the rulebook and then complain when the rulebook is followed, and complain about the answer to a question that they asked in the first place.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/24 09:17:20
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
If only someone had warned you ahead of time that this was a colossaly bad idea.
If only...
Brexit happened because there was a large pressure from people wanting it to happen. Without that pressure the referendum would never have happened. Own your feth-up and stop blaiming others for your mistake.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/24 09:24:16
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
In an earlier post, Herzlos said the referendum result was a draw.
Really? In a first past the post referendum where 50% + 1 vote is the winning margin.
But it's Brexiteers' fault for following the rules which they didn't write, which were drawn up by a Parliament where 70% of the MPs support the EU.
We can't fething win can we?
I was accused by another poster of not listening to arguments or facts about the EU.
But when DINLT posts article and videos about the President of France talking about an EU military and EU expansion, or the President of the EU commission saying the same
What's the reaction?
Don't be silly, DINLT. The President of France has no power. he doesn't mean it. He's only doing that because he has nothing better else to do. He's a drunk guy down the local pub.
The President of the EU commission is the guy that empties the bins and sweeps the floors. He's a nobody. Move along, nothing to see here...
and so on and so on....
We can't win...
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
The majority of MPs support the EU. 70%. 70 fething percent!
How can they be beholden to a minority of Brexiteers?
And thus 30% don't.
The Tories are holding onto power by a margin so thing they need the gakking DUP to stay in. They are 6 seats short of a majority, once you factor out Sinn Fein who don't attend. DUP has 10.
So even with the DUP onside (not guaranteed), it'd only take 5 Tory MP's to vote against them for the Tories to start losing stuff.
All I see is a load of excuses from people who wrote the rulebook and then complain when the rulebook is followed, and complain about the answer to a question that they asked in the first place.
The rulebook was written by a Tory PM bent of fighting a fire within his own party.
Said fire in turn started by decades of mostly tory ministers (some labour too) shifting the blame to the EU whenever they needed a convenient scapegoat, and aided by a relentless media machine who found a new faceless enemy to throw mud at.
Anyone wanting to educate themselves was a google or twitter search away from making a more educated guess at what was better for Britain. The whole remain ruined the campaign so deal with it smells exactly like she dressed provocatively.
Really? In a first past the post referendum where 50% + 1 vote is the winning margin.
Sure, 50% + 1 counts as a "win", but a result of 51.9/48.1% is as about as indecisive as you can get. What the gak is anyone meant to do with an almost 50/50 split, even if one side "won" if you squint hard enough. MP's need to consider all of their constituents, including those that didn't or couldn't vote.
I agree there should have been some qualified majority, but there wasn't.
We can't fething win can we?
With Brexit? Not without some sort of actual plan for how it could work, no. You voted for an undefined almost impossible action, with no plan, based on lies, to be executed by incompetents. How the gak are you expecting to turn that into a victory for anyone?
Brexit is a losing situation for literally everyone. There's no end game that doesn't upset someone.
I was accused by another poster of not listening to arguments or facts about the EU.
You don't. Most things you've been corrected on here, you've been corrected on more than once. You make a big thing about being all about big ideas and not caring about the details, but the details are important.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/24 09:42:04
The majority of MPs support the EU. 70%. 70 fething percent!
How can they be beholden to a minority of Brexiteers?
And thus 30% don't.
Which pretty much aligns with those with higher education voting 2-to-1 for remain. People tend to elect those they think are better prepared so graduates are disproportionally represented in the Parliament.
Sure, 50% + 1 counts as a "win", but a result of 51.9/48.1% is as about as indecisive as you can get. What the gak is anyone meant to do with an almost 50/50 split, even if one side "won" if you squint hard enough. MP's need to consider all of their constituents, including those that didn't or couldn't vote.
You just made my point for me.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
To get back to the point, a three question referendum as suggested by Future War Cultist is a very good idea. Make it first preference AV voting so the result can be absolutely clear.
The difficulty is exactly what to put as the middle option. There's no middle option on the table at this stage. The government has so far wasted nearly two years not getting anywhere near to a position they want us to be in.
There is also a lot of difficulty in getting Parliament to think about this, and execute the whole thing, and also it needs to consider what the EU will think about it and there is a lot of time pressure.
The one thing I think all of us can agree on is that the entire situation is a shambles. No-one, not even the Hard Brexiteers, has got what they want.
You voted for an undefined almost impossible action, with no plan, based on lies, to be executed by incompetents. How the gak are you expecting to turn that into a victory for anyone?
Crime happens every day in the UK and has been for centuries. Should we abolish the British police because they don't catch every criminal and solve every crime?
People die in hospital every day. Should we scrap the NHS?
MPs ask me if we should stay in the EU or leave. I say leave.
And then the MPs turn around and say we don't know what to do, and it's your fault for answering the question. We didn't think people might want to leave.
Shall I phone the fire service and ask them if they know anything about putting out fires?
Should I expect MPs to make decisions and do job they are paid for? Is that too much to ask?
But, DINLT they're incompetent. So by that logic, let's not have a government at all, because they make mistakes all the time and have done so for 300 years.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote: To get back to the point, a three question referendum as suggested by Future War Cultist is a very good idea. Make it first preference AV voting so the result can be absolutely clear.
The difficulty is exactly what to put as the middle option. There's no middle option on the table at this stage. The government has so far wasted nearly two years not getting anywhere near to a position they want us to be in.
There is also a lot of difficulty in getting Parliament to think about this, and execute the whole thing, and also it needs to consider what the EU will think about it and there is a lot of time pressure.
The one thing I think all of us can agree on is that the entire situation is a shambles. No-one, not even the Hard Brexiteers, has got what they want.
I agree it is a shambles. I apologise to Remain supporters for giving them flak, but I'm just as mad with my own side.
They've plotted and schemed for 40 years to leave the EEC/EU. Forty fething years, and they don't have a clue or a fething plan! !
I think we'd be all better off by sweeping the whole damn lot of them into the Thames.
All I see is a load of excuses from people who wrote the rulebook and then complain when the rulebook is followed, and complain about the answer to a question that they asked in the first place.
The rulebook was written by a Tory PM bent of fighting a fire within his own party.
Said fire in turn started by decades of mostly tory ministers (some labour too) shifting the blame to the EU whenever they needed a convenient scapegoat, and aided by a relentless media machine who found a new faceless enemy to throw mud at.
Anyone wanting to educate themselves was a google or twitter search away from making a more educated guess at what was better for Britain. The whole remain ruined the campaign so deal with it smells exactly like she dressed provocatively.
Have you read Tim Shipman's 'All out War.' The inside story of the referendum?
I have and let me assure you that the Remain campaign was a fething shambles from start to finish.
Here's David Cameron's priorities for the Remain campiagn:
1. Survival of the Tory party.
2. Survival of the Tory party.
3. Survival of the Tory party.
4. Survival of the Tory party.
37. Err, we'd better stay in the EU...
They deserved to lose with a gak campiagn like that.
I supose I'd better take the blame for that.
Mea Culpa...
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/05/24 10:02:26
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
I never sat in the House of Commons and voted to hold a referendum. I never sent a leaflet to every household in Britain, and I sure as hell didn't run a Remain campaign that was one of the worst in British political history.
They asked me a question, I and 17 million people gave an answer.
Actually -- as you've stated over an over again -- your mind was made up quite some time prior to any referendum or vote -- evidence and reason be damned.
What you chose to do is side with the venal liars and oppurtunists as you saw a chance and now refuse to accept any responsibility for the consequences.
MPs ask me if we should stay in the EU or leave. I say leave.
And then the MPs turn around and say we don't know what to do, and it's your fault for answering the question. We didn't think people might want to leave.
no, once again you're wrong.
MPs -- and the whole Govt. and every worthwhile economist said it was a bad idea -- few lines above you're claiming that 70% of MPs support/want to be in the Eu -- a few loud mouths and lairs said otherwise and you fell for it.
Hard.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
You're refusing to point the finger off blame at Remain.
I didn't run a gak Remain campaign, and I'm not a coward like those 70% of Remain MPs who could have stopped Brexit two years ago but chose an MP's salary over their 'love' for the EU.
You need to ask your own side some hard questions...
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Sure, 50% + 1 counts as a "win", but a result of 51.9/48.1% is as about as indecisive as you can get. What the gak is anyone meant to do with an almost 50/50 split, even if one side "won" if you squint hard enough. MP's need to consider all of their constituents, including those that didn't or couldn't vote.
You just made my point for me.
Point of clarity, I said 50%+1 of eligible voters. In the referendum you got 34%. That why I further clarified that on a 70% turnout, it works out at about a 70%* in favour (i.e. a super-majority); you got 51%.
This is why, despite voting in favour of the Alternative Vote, I have never publically moaned about that decision, because it was a very clear majority (72% against, IIRC).
*I'm aware in my earlier post I said 65%, but I was working from memory and I just had time to actually crunch the numbers
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
Point of clarity, I said 50%+1 of eligible voters. In the referendum you got 34%.
Sorry for boring people to death with this, but this is exactly what I'm banging on about: the rules!
Nobody said anything about turnout or eligibility or 66% clauses or you had to wear a purple coat when you were voting or your vote doesn't count.
The people who wrote the rules didn't say anything about this pre-referendum.
But now they're complaining about rules they wrote.
I, we, can't win.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
My greatest issue with the EU is the "Ever closer union" principle that it was founded on. I see it as a threat by its very nature to the continued independence of Britain as a Nation State. (And yes, I acknowledge that its consensual. But I still oppose it).
If the EFTA/Norway model puts the brakes on political integration, and gives us more control over immigration (i.e. the freedom to pick and choose based on skills/education etc vs open door mass immigration) then I'm all for it. I've only ever wanted economic union with Europe, not political union.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/24 10:19:56
Future War Cultist wrote: I think at this stage a second referendum is unavoidable. Hopefully it would be a three choice question:
Remain
Leave to join EFTA (I think any deal they give will be pretty much the equivalent).
Leave everything.
With a mechanism to prevent a situation were option 1 wins even though options 2 and 3 received more votes.
I also have this (sinking) feeling that we will end up remaining in the end. And if it does, all us with concerns about the EU will just be swept aside and they’ll just carry on with further intergration and increasing budgets and no accountability with the help of the entrenched establishment here whilst we’ll be fobbed off, again.
I’ve got an opportunity to go to Australia, but I’m going to wait to see how this all pans out. If we leave (going to EFTA or something similar) I’ll stay here and make it work. If we remain, I think I’ll go. Some might say it’s hypocritical to complain about immigration only to immigrate yourself. Maybe it is, but at least I’ll have had to earn that visa.
I'd be in favour of a 2 stage vote or something an in/out stage 1 and then a multi option stage with the options succinctly explained, the you'd also get a better view of what kind of Brexit people actually want, instead of "Brexit means Brexit" and "I've decided upon some hard lines, because Brexit means Brexit"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: My greatest issue with the EU is the "Ever closer union" principle that it was founded on. I see it as a threat by its very nature to the continued independence of Britain as a Nation State. (And yes, I acknowledge that its consensual. But I still oppose it).
If the EFTA/Norway model puts the brakes on political integration, and gives us more control over immigration (i.e. the freedom to pick and choose based on skills/education etc vs open door mass immigration) then I'm all for it. I've only ever wanted economic union with Europe, not political union.
Yeah, but we get to annoy the French by being able to Veto stuff and that's always a worthy cause.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/24 10:24:36
Mozzyfuzzy wrote: Why would we point the finger of blame at the minority?
Or does the will of those who voted remain only matter when they can be used as a scapegoat?
I think the best solution would be for the government to repeal the great reform acts, suffrage acts, etc etc
and stop people like me from voting.
They ask a question and then moan at me for giving the 'wrong' answer.
They offer the chance of Brexit and then moan when I vote for Brexit...
They stand for Parliament and then moan at people for voting them in and expecting them to do their jobs...
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Mozzyfuzzy wrote: Why would we point the finger of blame at the minority?
Or does the will of those who voted remain only matter when they can be used as a scapegoat?
I think the best solution would be for the government to repeal the great reform acts, suffrage acts, etc etc
and stop people like me from voting.
They ask a question and then moan at me for giving the 'wrong' answer.
They offer the chance of Brexit and then moan when I vote for Brexit...
They stand for Parliament and then moan at people for voting them in and expecting them to do their jobs...
You realise that every time the Conservatives get voted in there is a large section of the country that moans about how they didn't get what they wanted?
This is democracy mate, most of it is moaning about how you didn't get your way.
You're refusing to point the finger off blame at Remain.
How dare they not convince people whose minds were already made up prior to the campaign.
How dare they assume some basic economic literacy.
What they should've done is appeal to the lowest common denominator, of course.
You need to ask your own side some hard questions...
It seems much more likely it's about substantial parts of the population we need to be asking questions about
My greatest issue with the EU is the "Ever closer union" principle that it was founded on. I see it as a threat by its very nature to the continued independence of Britain as a Nation State. (And yes, I acknowledge that its consensual. But I still oppose it).
See, I disagree here but that's fair enough.
It's certainly better than the EU is the New Pol Pot or lies about how we'll all be better off.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/24 10:35:57
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
