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I did have the nation's best interest at heart. That's why I voted leave.
And I thought that Games Workshop could contradict itself in the same paragraph.
Ok, I have to ask at this point, how is being in the EU WORSE than having British civilization reduced back to the stone age (your earlier reference). Because it sounds like some ego maniacal BS that *I* might spew on a bad day.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
or out of the EU but banging rocks together in a cave, I'll choose the cave any day of the week.
The truly funny/sad part here if you recall was how he kept insisting that he was the visionary wanting to lead us out of the stone age etc etc if you remember.
TBH it seems you don;t have any real principles as such, just feelings.
Appalled that @foreignoffice signed away our British rights to war compensation in 1990 upon German reunification. What a travesty and one which I intend to challenge in Commons.
.... war reparations from Germany .... uh huh.
... remind me, how did that work out after WW I ?
And is this really the best time to remind, say, about 1/3rd of the globe that perhaps some of our actions in the past might perhaps be resolved with a swift exchange of large amounts of money.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/25 20:39:30
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
I'd rather a minority of people with the nations best interests at heart voted, than a mass of people who care about nothing but themselves and their own petty views.
Who are these paragons of vitrue?
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
I'd rather a minority of people with the nations best interests at heart voted
I did have the nation's best interest at heart. That's why I voted leave.
I find that hard to comprehend, since you've admitted you'd rather plunge the nation into the stone age than be part of the EU. I can't square the circle where that's in the nations best interests.
In my view, Remain was in the nations best interests (backed up by a lot of experts), but then I'd rather see us take the Euro and speak German than for us to take the best-case hit we're going to get from Brexit.
I'm pretty sure he was talking about hoping you don't vote because you did it with what seems to be a complete disregard of the issue. You've admitted that you'd vote Brexit again, and that nothing would change your mind. That's a dangerous way to vote.
He's not talking about hoping you don't vote because you had the wrong opinion. There's nothing wrong with people coming to a different conclusion if they are willing to look at the evidence and make a judgement which might be open to change. I don't believe you can do that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/25 22:18:40
reds8n wrote: And is this really the best time to remind, say, about 1/3rd of the globe that perhaps some of our actions in the past might perhaps be resolved with a swift exchange of large amounts of money.
If the UK would like to resolve the treatment of my people at the Treaty of Paris, you remember, when the dagger was sunk deeply in our backs regarding leaving us hung out to dry with the US? Yeah, thinking about three billion might cover that to reopen trade with us.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
I'd rather a minority of people with the nations best interests at heart voted
I did have the nation's best interest at heart. That's why I voted leave.
I find that hard to comprehend, since you've admitted you'd rather plunge the nation into the stone age than be part of the EU. I can't square the circle where that's in the nations best interests.
In my view, Remain was in the nations best interests (backed up by a lot of experts), but then I'd rather see us take the Euro and speak German than for us to take the best-case hit we're going to get from Brexit.
I'm pretty sure he was talking about hoping you don't vote because you did it with what seems to be a complete disregard of the issue. You've admitted that you'd vote Brexit again, and that nothing would change your mind. That's a dangerous way to vote.
He's not talking about hoping you don't vote because you had the wrong opinion. There's nothing wrong with people coming to a different conclusion if they are willing to look at the evidence and make a judgement which might be open to change. I don't believe you can do that.
In regards to what I was talking about, you are entirely correct.
Interestingly this came about despite the apparent interference by American Evangalist anti-abortion groups.
Also interestingly, the mentions on social media of the two opposing slogans were 10:1 in favour of the pro-choice campaign. I think this partly reflects the fact that a lot of anti-abortion voters are going to be older and less active on social media.
I'm not interested in the economic case for or against Brexit. It's the democratic case that made the vote the way I did.
I believe that it's in Britain's best interests for its citizens to determine their own future, come what may and not outsource that decision abroad.
My argument has always been for national sovereignty, the preservation of the nation state etc etc
Your argument is obviously the economic case. And I respect that, but the economics has never been a factor for me...
I think I'm 'right.' You think you're 'right.'
That's why we must always have respect and tolerance for the other side in our democracy and respect the decisions when their made...
People might say I'm being two faced for calling MPs saboteurs or whatever, but it's my God given right to call our politicians whatever I want, although I never cross the line by insulting their families or using abusive language or death threats.
But calling Nick Clegg a two faced traitorous wretch? Clegg's fair game and he knew that when he signed on the bottom line...
And he actually said that himself a few years back...
On the other hand, I never insult fellow voters or ordinary citizens, becuase obviously I am one . It's unhelpful and calling Remainers traitors or Brexit supporters racists or Nazis or whatever, is no good to either side.
My best friend voted Remain. But we're still best friends...
We talk about everything bar the EU
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Kilkrazy wrote: Yes. It's difficult to argue with that margin.
Interestingly this came about despite the apparent interference by American Evangalist anti-abortion groups.
Also interestingly, the mentions on social media of the two opposing slogans were 10:1 in favour of the pro-choice campaign. I think this partly reflects the fact that a lot of anti-abortion voters are going to be older and less active on social media.
I'm pro-choice myself, so this is a welcome victory.
I'd rather a minority of people with the nations best interests at heart voted, than a mass of people who care about nothing but themselves and their own petty views.
Who are these paragons of vitrue?
Exactly. Democracy isn't perfect, can be bad at times, but it's the best system we've got...
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"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
My argument has always been for national sovereignty, the preservation of the nation state etc etc
You... do realize that the collapse of the nation state in general is on the way, right? That humanity at large is going to relegate them to the dustbin of history in all likelyhood? Why on earth would you try to preserve something that most likely will drag you down with it?
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I'm not interested in the economic case for or against Brexit. It's the democratic case that made the vote the way I did.
Heh. Maybe that's why I find it relatively easy to respect your position, DINLT. Not that I don't care about the economic case for Remain, but it's of secondary importance to the philosophical, even moral, case for me. I voted Remain primarily because I believe in the European 'Project'. I don't want Europe to go back to being a bunch of completely independent countries, because that gave us centuries of horrific bloodshed. I dont care about national sovereignty, or even about democracy to be brutally honest*, as much as I do about keeping Europe as a bloc, acting in the overall best interests of all its citizens, whether they be English, French, Poles, Walloons, Basques or whatever. Like Churchill, I want a United States of Europe to ensure that Europe always has a say in world affairs, with a status on the same level as the USA and China, and to prevent war from ever coming to this continent again.
* I'm fundamentally a technocrat. Democracy is just a means to an end as far as I'm concerned. Democracy is the best system humanity has yet devised for restraining governments from getting too authoritarian and trampling the rights of minorities. But I'm fine with the "Will of the People" being ignored when the People are clearly wrong, just as long as the politicians are honest about doing that and are willing to accept the electoral consequences. I'm not a believer in the old saying that the problems of democracy can be solved with more democracy.
A little bit of righteous anger now and then is good, actually. Don't trust a person who never gets angry.
Kilkrazy wrote: Ireland abortion referendum result is out. 69% in favour of changing the clause in the constitution which forbids abortion. (To put it simply.)
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I'm not interested in the economic case for or against Brexit. It's the democratic case that made the vote the way I did.
Heh. Maybe that's why I find it relatively easy to respect your position, DINLT. Not that I don't care about the economic case for Remain, but it's of secondary importance to the philosophical, even moral, case for me. I voted Remain primarily because I believe in the European 'Project'. I don't want Europe to go back to being a bunch of completely independent countries, because that gave us centuries of horrific bloodshed. I dont care about national sovereignty, or even about democracy to be brutally honest*, as much as I do about keeping Europe as a bloc, acting in the overall best interests of all its citizens, whether they be English, French, Poles, Walloons, Basques or whatever. Like Churchill, I want a United States of Europe to ensure that Europe always has a say in world affairs, with a status on the same level as the USA and China, and to prevent war from ever coming to this continent again.
* I'm fundamentally a technocrat. Democracy is just a means to an end as far as I'm concerned. Democracy is the best system humanity has yet devised for restraining governments from getting too authoritarian and trampling the rights of minorities. But I'm fine with the "Will of the People" being ignored when the People are clearly wrong, just as long as the politicians are honest about doing that and are willing to accept the electoral consequences. I'm not a believer in the old saying that the problems of democracy can be solved with more democracy.
That's a viewpoint I can respect even though I obviously don't agree with it, and I admire your honesty.
I've called Jean-Claude Juncker every name under the sun for years, but at least he's always been honest about EU expansion.
Not accusing anybody here of this, but it's Remain types in the media who try and convince us that the EU is nothing more than this benign entity only concerned with allowing people easy access to holidays in Europe and cheap wine from France and Italy that makes my blood boil...
You can't have fiscal union without political union and a blind man could see that the Euro was a step towards a U.S.E
Feth me, if I were building a European project you're damn right I'd be binding people in via a shared currency. It's the logical thing to do...
There's this wonderful scene in the HBO John Adams series, where Alexander Hamilton tells Jefferson how he's going to bind the new States to the Federal Government by means of debt, banks and credit.
My argument has always been for national sovereignty, the preservation of the nation state etc etc
You... do realize that the collapse of the nation state in general is on the way, right? That humanity at large is going to relegate them to the dustbin of history in all likelyhood? Why on earth would you try to preserve something that most likely will drag you down with it?
The nation state has been on the go for nigh 400 years - there's still life in it yet. This Star trek utopia of one world government is not about too happen any time soon, if it ever will.
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"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
I'd rather a minority of people with the nations best interests at heart voted
I did have the nation's best interest at heart. That's why I voted leave.
than a mass of people who care about nothing but themselves and their own petty views.
I agree. Remain voters are terrible...
Jokes aside, and getting serious here, you and I both believed we had the nation's best interest at heart with our respective votes.
I voted in good faith and I honestly beleive that Remain voters on dakka voted in good faith. I don't agree with their views, but I obviously respect their right to have it.
And that's the heart of the matter: what other system do you advocate? Disenfranchise vast swathes of British people?
If you think I'm bad, my uncle is probably more hard Brexit than I am...
But he was a taxpayer for decades and did years in the British army and obviously guarded this nation from its enemies i.e The Warsaw Pact countries...
Could we seriously advocate taking the vote from peole like him just because we don't agree with them?
And I'm at odds with him on a lot of non-Brexit issues...
Tolerance and respect for our political opponents is the only system that works in our democracy...
You Might be able to lie to yourself so but in reality you voted for uk to burn and become insignificant economical wreck where poor will suffer most. That's not good of country.
Only people who can benefit from this are filthy rich billionaires.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Not accusing anybody here of this, but it's Remain types in the media who try and convince us that the EU is nothing more than this benign entity only concerned with allowing people easy access to holidays in Europe and cheap wine from France and Italy that makes my blood boil...
They annoy me too, though obviously for the opposite reason. It's been that lily-livered playing down of what the EU really is and of what it could one day be by 'my' side of the argument in the UK that allowed the reactionary nutjobs like Farage and the Daily Mail to win over public opinion. When we're unwilling to actually go out and confidently sell the idea of a united Europe, it makes it very easy for us to be portrayed as being up to no good. During the Referendum campaign, we Remainers often sounded like we couldn't even convince ourselves the EU was a good thing, so it's hardly surprising we failed to convince anyone else. "The alternative would be even worse" is hardly a persuasive argument!
You can't have fiscal union without political union and a blind man could see that the Euro was a step towards a U.S.E
Hardly a day passes since the Brexit Referendum that I don't curse Gordon Brown for persuading Tony Blair to keep us out of the Euro, and Tony Blair for giving into him on that of all issues. Joining the Euro back then would have guaranteed we could never have left the EU.
There's this wonderful scene in the HBO John Adams series, where Alexander Hamilton tells Jefferson how he's going to bind the new States to the Federal Government by means of debt, banks and credit.
And which of the two would you say has been vindicated by history? The strong central government established by the Hamiltonian Federalists meant that slavery was eventually abolished in the US, schools in the South were desegregated, the Civil Rights Act was passed, and the US is the world's sole superpower. Meanwhile, what sort of people in the US still shout about "States' Rights" today? Jefferson is mostly remembered for raping his slaves. The modern Democratic Party is so embarrassed by Jefferson these days that several state parties have even renamed their annual Jefferson-Jackson dinners...
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A little bit of righteous anger now and then is good, actually. Don't trust a person who never gets angry.
Well in that case, thank god for Brown. Never thought I’d say that.
You’ve also highlighted a key gripe I have with the current set up. The near irreversible decision as to what currency to use being left to one easily bribed, sorry, influenced person who won’t have to answer for their stupidity.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/26 16:25:39
You’ve also highlighted a key gripe I have with the current set up. The near irreversible decision as to what currency to use being left to one easily bribed, sorry, influenced person who won’t have to answer for their stupidity.
Gordon Brown loved the Euro.
But being a control freak, his opposition to the Euro stemmed from the fact that he wouldn't be in charge. If the EU had offered to put him in charge, you'd wouldn't have seen the guy for dust...
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During the Referendum campaign, we Remainers often sounded like we couldn't even convince ourselves the EU was a good thing, so it's hardly surprising we failed to convince anyone else. "The alternative would be even worse" is hardly a persuasive argument!
Part of me wishes we were on the same side, becuase I agree 100% with that comment.
I feel vindicated that a EU supporter is saying it, because that's what I've been saying for 2 years.
Rather than blame the Russians or the working classes, or the Klingons or the Vulcans for losing, it's refreshing to see somebody on the Remain side call out their campiagn for the gak it was. I could ran a better campiagn.
The EU is gak, but change is risky. That was the Remain message and they deserved to lose. And yes, the Brexit campaign was a load of horsegak as well...
I've said this 100 times already to people, but please, please, please buy, beg, borrow or steal a copy of Tim Shipman's 'All out war' the story of the EU referendum...
Your jaw will hit the floor when you read how bad our political class is and how inept and incompetent they actually are...
Cameron was an utter disgrace, and George Osborne of all people was the only man on the Remain side to treat the campaign with any real seriousness or urgency...
Honest to God people it was like the Judean People's Front fighting the People's Front of Judea...
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"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Yes, I've read All Our War. It's a very good read and revealing of the various forces involved in the different campaigns.
Corbyn also was useless.
Of course it doesn't cover the illegal activities the different Leave campaigns indulged in because these were not yet discovered at the time the book was written.
However, with all said and done, just because Remain ran a weak campaign and Leave ran a strong con-job, it doesn't actually mean that it's a good idea to leave the EU.
Kilkrazy wrote: Yes, I've read All Our War. It's a very good read and revealing of the various forces involved in the different campaigns.
Corbyn also was useless.
Of course it doesn't cover the illegal activities the different Leave campaigns indulged in because these were not yet discovered at the time the book was written.
However, with all said and done, just because Remain ran a weak campaign and Leave ran a strong con-job, it doesn't actually mean that it's a good idea to leave the EU.
Corbyn has long been a follower of Tony Benn Socialism, and had he not had to balance factions in the Labour party, I think we would have seen the real Corbyn on the streets, and probably burning the EU flag. His record for decades has been anti-EEC/EU
Corbyn's heart was never really in Remain, just as May's heart will never be in Brexit.
But have an upvote for having read that book.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
The nation state has been on the go for nigh 400 years
And before the nation state the most commonplace sort of state was the city. And before cities, villages had wooden palisades and looked after their own affairs. Go back far enough and you'll find primitive people fighting the inexorable ever-closer-union of the cave system; with one diehard banging rocks in the depths, cursing the elites of "upper cave with view of forest". It's almost as if with ever increasing cross-cultural exposure and speedier methods of communication humans naturally amalgamate into ever larger societies.
“Good people are quick to help others in need, without hesitation or requiring proof the need is genuine. The wicked will believe they are fighting for good, but when others are in need they’ll be reluctant to help, withholding compassion until they see proof of that need. And yet Evil is quick to condemn, vilify and attack. For Evil, proof isn’t needed to bring harm, only hatred and a belief in the cause.”
The nation state has been on the go for nigh 400 years
And before the nation state the most commonplace sort of state was the city. And before cities, villages had wooden palisades and looked after their own affairs. Go back far enough and you'll find primitive people fighting the inexorable ever-closer-union of the cave system; with one diehard banging rocks in the depths, cursing the elites of "upper cave with view of forest". It's almost as if with ever increasing cross-cultural exposure and speedier methods of communication humans naturally amalgamate into ever larger societies.
For once, I agree with you
but I think that you, and a lot of other people, underestimate how strong the lure and pull of Nationalism is. It is a very potent ideology, and probably one of the strongest and influential -isms we've ever had.
It will not disappear over-night, if it ever does...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/26 17:33:11
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
The nation state has been on the go for nigh 400 years - there's still life in it yet. This Star trek utopia of one world government is not about too happen any time soon, if it ever will.
I doubt that Utopia will ever happen at all. But given the rise in global issues that effect all mankind and require a unified policy, if I may, it's one world government, or one world graveyard. I know which I'd pick.
but I think that you, and a lot of other people, underestimate how strong the lure and pull of Nationalism is. It is a very potent ideology, and probably one of the strongest and influential -isms we've ever had. .
Indeed, I've seen it make beasts of men, and war criminals, racists, and other forms of scum. The sooner it dies, the better for mankind.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/26 18:47:25
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
I flew over to Dublin for the abortion vote, I'm absolutely thrilled. I didn't think we would win by that much. I hope the US evangelicals spent LOTS of money on this campaign
I'm not interested in the economic case for or against Brexit. It's the democratic case that made the vote the way I did.
You can't pay the bills with democracy or sovereignty. If we damage our economy too badly then life will suck for all but the richest.
I also reckon brexit is going to result in less democracy, being that we've handed more power to politicians who don't want democracy, and less sovereignty, because we're still economically tied to the EU and it's rules but without any way. We'll have a lower quality of life and less rights too.
Can you think of any case the EU courts overruled Westminster that you didn't agree with?
Plus for someone who's all about democracy you seem happy for May to subvert it and seem annoyed that people like Gina Miller forced May to uphold parliamentary majority.
So whilst I don't mind brexit in theory, in practice it's a losing prospect in every way. I'd much rather we got on with this ever closer union and kept our place at the top table.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have to be honest, I don't care enough about the referendum to read a book on it. Both sides were garage (though not equal).
I'm much more interested in what we do now, and how we repair our credibility on the world stage.
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whembly wrote: So...what's the story with this Tommy Robinson reporter? Do I have this right? No one is allowed to report in that grooming gang rape trial??
o.O
No not quite (by some margin). You are allowed to report on the facts of a case. What you can't do is act in a way that potentially jeopardises the court case. E.g act in a way that may be deemed as intimidating to witnesses of either side or the jurors and so forth. It's to try to ensure trials are as fair as possible. In this case they deemed his 'reporting' methods as not being appropriate.
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/27 08:36:15
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
Da Boss wrote: I flew over to Dublin for the abortion vote, I'm absolutely thrilled. I didn't think we would win by that much. I hope the US evangelicals spent LOTS of money on this campaign
They don’t like it when Russians and other foreigners get involved in their elections. But a referendum in a country that has nothing to do with them? That’s fair game to pour money into one campaign and bombard social media with propaganda.
Da Boss wrote: I flew over to Dublin for the abortion vote, I'm absolutely thrilled. I didn't think we would win by that much. I hope the US evangelicals spent LOTS of money on this campaign
They don’t like it when Russians and other foreigners get involved in their elections. But a referendum in a country that has nothing to do with them? That’s fair game to pour money into one campaign and bombard social media with propaganda.
In fairness there's a difference between investing money in campaigning for a cause and trying to sabotage an election by throwing up endless walls of misinformation and rubbish. I don't know what the US involvment in the Irish vote looked like so I can't comment on it, but a large chunk of the issue with Russia's involvment in the US election isn't just that they were involved but the fact that they systematically tried to strangle any reasoned debate and increase polarization in US society through outright lies.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
