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 Rippy wrote:
For one, it suits the fluff more where the leader breaks off and takes on another powerful dude, or even lots of dudes every so often.

And for two, if you had your IC leading from the front before, nothing will stop you now; it was stupid in 7th, and now stupid in 8th.

It suits fluff that bodyguard rather than charging along hangs back? Or character decides that "nah I ain't going there" while his bodyguard charges up.

And it was btw hardly stupid in 7th ed as it was used pretty often. Helps ensure character has range to combat always while LOS kept them safe enough. And indeed made unit often tougher.

tneva82 wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
For one, it suits the fluff more where the leader breaks off and takes on another powerful dude, or even lots of dudes every so often.

And for two, if you had your IC leading from the front before, nothing will stop you now; it was stupid in 7th, and now stupid in 8th.

It suits fluff that bodyguard rather than charging along hangs back? Or character decides that "nah I ain't going there" while his bodyguard charges up.

And it was btw hardly stupid in 7th ed as it was used pretty often. Helps ensure character has range to combat always while LOS kept them safe enough. And indeed made unit often tougher.

As far as we know there is a rule called heroic intervention that avoids exactly the case you specified, so i would wait to know how that works before passing judgement on this character system.

Spoletta wrote:
As far as we know there is a rule called heroic intervention that avoids exactly the case you specified, so i would wait to know how that works before passing judgement on this character system.

Quoting the article:

"This allows Characters near a combat to pile in and attack if the enemy comes close enough, even if they themselves aren’t charged"

Sooo...For starters it seems to have a range. For second at least majority of cases it will be when ENEMY charges YOU. Not reverse(presumably because of range. Unlike hero drags himself 10" after failed charge. Nevermind his bodyguard that got left behind when they botched that 6" charge!)

tneva82 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
As far as we know there is a rule called heroic intervention that avoids exactly the case you specified, so i would wait to know how that works before passing judgement on this character system.

Quoting the article:

"This allows Characters near a combat to pile in and attack if the enemy comes close enough, even if they themselves aren’t charged"

Sooo...For starters it seems to have a range. For second at least majority of cases it will be when ENEMY charges YOU. Not reverse(presumably because of range. Unlike hero drags himself 10" after failed charge. Nevermind his bodyguard that got left behind when they botched that 6" charge!)

Yep. All the wording used in that preview points to this being used during the opponent's turn as a charge reaction, not to make up for failed IC charges.

Spoletta wrote:

Medicinal Carrots wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
No, hes right. Having only a keyword saying you're targetable, consist of only a single rule (ex char with the untargettable keywords are not targetable) while your solution forces you to add a general rule and an exception to that rule. Hence more bloating. The difference is rather minimal though

Both solutions force the adding of or to a core rule, and both solutions force adding an exception to a general rule.

Keyword solution adds the general rule for the keyword, which is an exception to the untargetable general rule. It then adds a keyword indicating the exception to a moderate number of units.

Wounds solution does not add a separate general rule, but adds counting wounds as a requirement of the untargetable general rule. It then adds a bespoke rule exception to a small number of units.

The bloat is just in different places. One has the exception in the main rules, and then an indicator of the exception on units, the other has a more restricted main rule, then a fully spelled out exception on the units.

That is if you add a bespoken rule to a model, IE you implement a human sized model stronger than a primarch! Probably they have no intention to create exceptions to that rule.

Good point. Bloat only exists in the wounds solution if a 11+W model that can hide exists. Bloat exists in the keyword solution when 11+W characters that can't hide exist, which we know will happen from the article. So while both solutions allow for the same design space, one solution will definitely introduce bloat, while one may not.

Which models should have 11+W and be able to hide behind units like smaller characters?

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
Yep. All the wording used in that preview points to this being used during the opponent's turn as a charge reaction, not to make up for failed IC charges.

Which results in more cases of either character or bodyguard watching while other charges all alone(well alone might not be appropriate term for bodyguard of multiple guys but you get the point).

Whether it's for good or bad is another thing but claiming there's no difference isnt' being honest.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
As far as we know there is a rule called heroic intervention that avoids exactly the case you specified, so i would wait to know how that works before passing judgement on this character system.

Quoting the article:

"This allows Characters near a combat to pile in and attack if the enemy comes close enough, even if they themselves aren’t charged"

Sooo...For starters it seems to have a range. For second at least majority of cases it will be when ENEMY charges YOU. Not reverse(presumably because of range. Unlike hero drags himself 10" after failed charge. Nevermind his bodyguard that got left behind when they botched that 6" charge!)

Yep. All the wording used in that preview points to this being used during the opponent's turn as a charge reaction, not to make up for failed IC charges.

Did we ever get confirmation whether or not you still moved after a failed charge? That could make the IC pile in useful on offense too

Medicinal Carrots wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
As far as we know there is a rule called heroic intervention that avoids exactly the case you specified, so i would wait to know how that works before passing judgement on this character system.

Quoting the article:

"This allows Characters near a combat to pile in and attack if the enemy comes close enough, even if they themselves aren’t charged"

Sooo...For starters it seems to have a range. For second at least majority of cases it will be when ENEMY charges YOU. Not reverse(presumably because of range. Unlike hero drags himself 10" after failed charge. Nevermind his bodyguard that got left behind when they botched that 6" charge!)

Yep. All the wording used in that preview points to this being used during the opponent's turn as a charge reaction, not to make up for failed IC charges.

Did we ever get confirmation whether or not you still moved after a failed charge? That could make the IC pile in useful on offense too

Yes in the assault phase preview, they stated that you still move even if the charge failed, the amount you rolled.

My big beef with Heroic Intervention is how it's been so vaguely previewed despite sounding like a rather important ability.

 Rippy wrote:
Yes in the assault phase preview, they stated that you still move even if the charge failed, the amount you rolled.

Where? If you mean this phrase "The basic mechanics of this phase are very similar to how they work now. You can select any unit within 12″ as the target of your charge, and your units will move towards them 2D6″." note it speaks noting about failed charges. Indeed neither this nor fight phase article has word "fail" anywhere.

ERJAK wrote:

You misquoted Reece and completely ignored the context of the comment, you were being disengenuous, if you can't deal with that maybe you should try being correct in the future.

I've misquoted no one.

Here's the point I've gone over several times, but is flying over your head every single time; 'that the impact of Reece and Frankie as play-testers has been overblown.' How exactly am I ignoring that context? You are being disingenuous.

And again you miss my point about home-brew rules, which instead you attack. I believe some of these rules as presented so far have shown merit and some of them haven't. I'm not blind to the failings of 7th, and I certainly won't be blind to them in 8th.

Yes, the impact these two had as testers was overblow.

Thank god for that. these guys had obvius biases against some armies.

tneva82 wrote:

gungo wrote:
There was nothing tactical about it. Chucking dice on the table isn't tactical. There was no planning and tactics just list building and luck.

Well not that 8th ed is much better. You just select power and roll a dice. Biggest difference is number of powers cast explodes per psyker. Hopefully spells gets toned down or 8th ed will be known as age of psychic domination.

In fact 8thAoS can be summed up by "chucking dice on the table" as that is all they have. No morale, No pinning, No flanking/facing's, No tactics they basically took out anything that was not a straight dice roll to decide even "Special Rules are likely to be reduced to just +/- modifiers if they follow AoS.

In return we get a basic level of target prioritization in hand to hand and that is hailed as a revolution and characters that will be red mist by turn 2 unless there designed to loophole the system(9 wound Rowboat on his hands and knees hiding behind his gullimarines"

I watched a couple of battle reports and read more about AoS as I keep seeing people saying it is better now, however it still seems to have a lot of the issues people say are wrong with 40k. It appears to me that a lot of games are won in the list building stage before a dice is thrown. Most tactics and I use the term loosely seem to involve exploiting loopholes and the unit/coherency rules. Oh and rolling buckets of dice.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Yes, the impact these two had as testers was overblow.

Thank god for that. these guys had obvius biases against some armies.

Name one.

SeanDrake wrote:
It appears to me that a lot of games are won in the list building stage before a dice is thrown. Most tactics and I use the term loosely seem to involve exploiting loopholes and the unit/coherency rules. Oh and rolling buckets of dice.

Like that one? Big chaos warrior that is cast in T shape forward so that stragglers ensure buffs on backfield(harder to snipe). Then due to formation buff anybody attacking them can get wounds bounced back if they roll 6 to wound. And the "funniest" part is that casualties he took out from the stragglers _leaving just the one next to buffers_.

Zzzz. Not kind of game I want to be playing.

Does Heroic Intervention let my Lord Baron of my Knightly Household charge in to protect another Knight? If so, lol.

Exalted sorcerers on disc, standing in the open shooting left and right, completely invulnerable since theres some rhinos and cultists scattered in other places of the board.

"So i'll shoot my riptide on your sorcerer", "Nuhuu that rhino behind him must be killed first".

Because deep tactics? I like playing games with some semblance of immersion with the same universe im in, the one where you can make decisions on what general direction to shoot.

 streetsamurai wrote:


You had a lot of decisions to take in 7th edition . If you really want to get a power off, you could allocate a lot of dice to it, but doing so, you increased the risk of getting a petil of the warp. You also had to determinate which spells you would prioritize, by allocating more dices to them.

In 8th, it's now a simple dice roll off. It is a lot more shallow (which, again, might be a good thing for you, if you like simpler faster rule)

There is still going to be decision making for the psychic phase. Granted, we don't know how many powers psykers will have or if they'll be chosen or randomly drawn, but you'll still have to prioritize which powers are more important for you to get off and balance that with whether it's better to go for the easier to cast spells.

The 7th edition psychic phase wasn't bad if you and your opponent each just had 1 or 2 psykers, but it fell apart for the armies like grey knights and thousand sons where the bookkeeping was a headache. I found myself avoiding my War Cabal mostly because of how tedious and monotonous the psychic phase was becoming and not because I didn't like the units. . The psychic phase alone was doubling my turn lengths and my opponents hated it because they basically just had to sit there and nod while I went through 25 dice. I also hated how often you had just one or two psykers casting the spells and everyone else just acting like a battery. Now you'll actually have all the psykers casting their own spells rather than just channeling.

Yonasu wrote:
Exalted sorcerers on disc, standing in the open shooting left and right, completely invulnerable since theres some rhinos and cultists scattered in other places of the board.

"So i'll shoot my riptide on your sorcerer", "Nuhuu that rhino behind him must be killed first".

Because deep tactics? I like playing games with some semblance of immersion with the same universe im in, the one where you can make decisions on what general direction to shoot.

IC can't join rhino so your point is moot.

It's totally unrealistic that units can freely pin point characters. That's only possible because players have god view and units do what you are told without random. In real life unit shoots at charging terminators he wouldn't be able to pinpoint captain among them.

Yonasu wrote:
Exalted sorcerers on disc, standing in the open shooting left and right, completely invulnerable since theres some rhinos and cultists scattered in other places of the board.

"So i'll shoot my riptide on your sorcerer", "Nuhuu that rhino behind him must be killed first".

Because deep tactics? I like playing games with some semblance of immersion with the same universe im in, the one where you can make decisions on what general direction to shoot.

If the Rhino is behind him the Sorceror can get shot, as the Sorceror would be the closer target.

Its almost like you are just using hyperbole and complaining before we have the actual rules. Or are complaining without reading the article.

 Crazyterran wrote:

Yonasu wrote:
Exalted sorcerers on disc, standing in the open shooting left and right, completely invulnerable since theres some rhinos and cultists scattered in other places of the board.

"So i'll shoot my riptide on your sorcerer", "Nuhuu that rhino behind him must be killed first".

Because deep tactics? I like playing games with some semblance of immersion with the same universe im in, the one where you can make decisions on what general direction to shoot.

If the Rhino is behind him the Sorceror can get shot, as the Sorceror would be the closer target.

Its almost like you are just using hyperbole and complaining before we have the actual rules. Or are complaining without reading the article.

Why would i mean that the rhino is behind the sorcerer? Hyperbole much?

 Galas wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Our car is gone, crushed and swept away, without anything we wanted fixed, just replaced with something we didn't ask for.

And I'm saying this in general, even aplying it to me, not specific to you H.B.M.C

Total agreement with Galas. In all the "What would you like to see in 8th edition threads", I've been pretty consistent.

Nuke the fething BS we have now and start over from ground up. 7th wasn't a mess. It was a fething joke. 6th was worse. If you liked 7th, great. Go back to playing it. You're welcome to your opinion.

I'm moving on to 8th, and I like most of what I've seen so far. I'm cautiously optimistic as I still want to see the rules written out and not these teasers. In a vacuum, Characters walking behind a wall of swinging bolters sounds silly. However, compared to a system that allowed Bark-Bark Star, I'd rather give the new hotness a spin. Her sisters, 6th and 7th, were bat-gak crazy.

tneva82 wrote:

Yonasu wrote:
Exalted sorcerers on disc, standing in the open shooting left and right, completely invulnerable since theres some rhinos and cultists scattered in other places of the board.

"So i'll shoot my riptide on your sorcerer", "Nuhuu that rhino behind him must be killed first".

Because deep tactics? I like playing games with some semblance of immersion with the same universe im in, the one where you can make decisions on what general direction to shoot.

IC can't join rhino so your point is moot.

It's totally unrealistic that units can freely pin point characters. That's only possible because players have god view and units do what you are told without random. In real life unit shoots at charging terminators he wouldn't be able to pinpoint captain among them.

If there is a lone guy in the middle of a field, why cant anything shoot on him? The fricken primarch, easily identifiable even without future eye gear, standing right there in front of you and you cant do anything about it since theres an imperial guard with a pea shooter behind you. "Better swing this baneblade around guys, that primarch has a character tag!"

It does look like there will be some weirdness in getting your characters into combat with their squads. If the squad charges and fails, you have to move them forward the rolled distance, right? Now your IC has do decide between lagging behind and making their own assault (sucking overwatch?) alone.

Charges striking first initially seemed good to me, but now I'm remembering some of the weirdness you got with fantasy battle back in the day. "Well, can't move up because then they can charge me." Random charge distance helps to mitigate that, so that is good. It might be interesting in game play - maybe you will see some of the same use of bait units and that kind of thing. That is encouraging.

Yonasu wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Yonasu wrote:
Exalted sorcerers on disc, standing in the open shooting left and right, completely invulnerable since theres some rhinos and cultists scattered in other places of the board.

"So i'll shoot my riptide on your sorcerer", "Nuhuu that rhino behind him must be killed first".

Because deep tactics? I like playing games with some semblance of immersion with the same universe im in, the one where you can make decisions on what general direction to shoot.

IC can't join rhino so your point is moot.

It's totally unrealistic that units can freely pin point characters. That's only possible because players have god view and units do what you are told without random. In real life unit shoots at charging terminators he wouldn't be able to pinpoint captain among them.

If there is a lone guy in the middle of a field, why cant anything shoot on him? The fricken primarch, easily identifiable even without future eye gear, standing right there in front of you and you cant do anything about it since theres an imperial guard with a pea shooter behind you. "Better swing this baneblade around guys, that primarch has a character tag!"

Why can't the little horsie go in straight lines?!

Why can't the pawn kill the guy right in front of him?!

The king can only move one square? WTF, he's the most important piece on the board!!

Yonasu wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Yonasu wrote:
Exalted sorcerers on disc, standing in the open shooting left and right, completely invulnerable since theres some rhinos and cultists scattered in other places of the board.

"So i'll shoot my riptide on your sorcerer", "Nuhuu that rhino behind him must be killed first".

Because deep tactics? I like playing games with some semblance of immersion with the same universe im in, the one where you can make decisions on what general direction to shoot.

IC can't join rhino so your point is moot.

It's totally unrealistic that units can freely pin point characters. That's only possible because players have god view and units do what you are told without random. In real life unit shoots at charging terminators he wouldn't be able to pinpoint captain among them.

If there is a lone guy in the middle of a field, why cant anything shoot on him? The fricken primarch, easily identifiable even without future eye gear, standing right there in front of you and you cant do anything about it since theres an imperial guard with a pea shooter behind you. "Better swing this baneblade around guys, that primarch has a character tag!"

Not sure if proposing alternatives is really on topic, but one solution would be to give each independent model an "Detection" number. If you want to shoot them they either have to all on their lonesome, or you have to beat the score. Primarchs, not too hard to roll. Cadre Fireblade? Aught to be almost indistinguishable from fire warriors. I'd worry that snipers will simply murder any squishy but interesting ICs like commissars or Meks.

Yonasu wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

Yonasu wrote:
Exalted sorcerers on disc, standing in the open shooting left and right, completely invulnerable since theres some rhinos and cultists scattered in other places of the board.

"So i'll shoot my riptide on your sorcerer", "Nuhuu that rhino behind him must be killed first".

Because deep tactics? I like playing games with some semblance of immersion with the same universe im in, the one where you can make decisions on what general direction to shoot.

If the Rhino is behind him the Sorceror can get shot, as the Sorceror would be the closer target.

Its almost like you are just using hyperbole and complaining before we have the actual rules. Or are complaining without reading the article.

Why would i mean that the rhino is behind the sorcerer? Hyperbole much?

Because that is exactly what you wrote?

Nuhuu that rhino behind him must be killed first".

The major issues in these topics so far (which I can remember off the top of my head):
-NuMarines
-Random charges
-Weapons can wound everything
-Psychic phase changes
-Morale changes
-Large models don't degrade identically
-Characters can't be shot unless they're the closest models

Join us at 3PM BST to find out what new contention we can explode into 50 more pages of repeating the same things over and over!

tneva82 wrote:

Yonasu wrote:
Exalted sorcerers on disc, standing in the open shooting left and right, completely invulnerable since theres some rhinos and cultists scattered in other places of the board.

"So i'll shoot my riptide on your sorcerer", "Nuhuu that rhino behind him must be killed first".

Because deep tactics? I like playing games with some semblance of immersion with the same universe im in, the one where you can make decisions on what general direction to shoot.

IC can't join rhino so your point is moot.

It's totally unrealistic that units can freely pin point characters. That's only possible because players have god view and units do what you are told without random. In real life unit shoots at charging terminators he wouldn't be able to pinpoint captain among them.

Totally unrealistic, agreed, but why not them just have characters be part of the unit. Its much harder to target one specific guy out of a group of 6, 11, 21 or 51, than the one guy over there, on his lonesome with a fancy weapon, fancy gun, fancy armour, fancy banners, wading through everyone that comes near him. I think this is a bad move as it mitigates the need to actually balance the characters and deathstars.


I only really play 40k, however, 1 game I will equate it to is the Yugioh Ban List, introduced in part due to the "Yata lock" and similar effects. For reference, this particular card, when it damages your opponent, prevents him from draw a card next turn and then returns to the hand, thereby locking your opponent in a cycle of having no cards to deal with Yata-Garasu, continually being damaged, being prevented from getting cards to deal with Yata, then getting damaged again. It effectively wins the game. So instead of doing an emergency errata to balance the card and make this not an issue, they just blanket ban the card. It normally requires other equally overpowered cards (original, Chaos Emperor Dragon, which is also banned for being completely broken in general).

This is a similar situation with characters. There is a small number of units that when combined in a particular way, make an extremely difficult to kill unit that deals a lot of damage. But instead of toning down the units, making them balanced or implementing a rule such as "A unit may only benefit from the special rules of one character" or "Only 1 IC may join a unit" or something to balance them, they just put a blanket ban in place.

Yonasu wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

Yonasu wrote:
Exalted sorcerers on disc, standing in the open shooting left and right, completely invulnerable since theres some rhinos and cultists scattered in other places of the board.

"So i'll shoot my riptide on your sorcerer", "Nuhuu that rhino behind him must be killed first".

Because deep tactics? I like playing games with some semblance of immersion with the same universe im in, the one where you can make decisions on what general direction to shoot.

If the Rhino is behind him the Sorceror can get shot, as the Sorceror would be the closer target.

Its almost like you are just using hyperbole and complaining before we have the actual rules. Or are complaining without reading the article.

Why would i mean that the rhino is behind the sorcerer? Hyperbole much?

That is literally what you said.

Might be time for you to take a break, friend!