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Daedalus81 wrote:

 Freddy Kruger wrote:
I like how everyone is saying the good old Russ tank got terrible with the new random hits with it's battle cannon.
I'm sure that it used to be ordinance. It's now just a heavy weapon on the new article (assuming the battle cannon wasn't heavy before). That means no rule for scatter of its not ordinance? I think the Russ just became more reliable and tougher...

I'm on the fence with the battle cannon.

I think it's targets won't be regular 1 wound infantry, but rather big targets and multi-wound infantry (which I think Orks will be).

Yep it's going to want to target either elite infantry or single models. Makes sense, but I don't know about the 1D6 hits... it's too swingy in this case, much more so than the 2D6 charge (which I'm in favour of) that at least has an uneven distribution.

Sweet twin linked punisher cannons is 40 dice.
Time to order a crate of dice!!!
Vendetta with 3x twin linked lascannons are 6 lascannon shots at str 9, -3 armour, d6 wounds. And a potential 36wounds!!! Of course only Ave of 18 wounds!!!

MaxT wrote:


It was pretty normal in prior editions to 8th for big blasts to scatter so far as to only hit the odd model in a unit. It makes battle cannons random as hell but they pretty much were anyway!

It's a big downgrade, but I think we need to stop thinking of the BC as a horde killer and more of a elite infantry and tank killer. Its role changed. Its just different.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:
Sweet twin linked punisher cannons is 40 dice.
Time to order a crate of dice!!!
Vendetta with 3x twin linked lascannons are 6 lascannon shots at str 9, -3 armour, d6 wounds. And a potential 36wounds!!! Of course only Ave of 18 wounds!!!

Yea, I think, things like this won't be a straight port.

 docdoom77 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Ok...

Twin-Linked weapons. In 2nd Ed you'd fire once, and hit twice. In 3rd-7th you'd fire once, hit once, but re-roll if you missed. Now you just fire twice. I'm totally ok with this.

Combi-Weapons. Hey! They remembered that weapons can be reloaded. 'Bout fething time!

Explosives. Uhh... just as I feared/predicted. Battlecannon gets D6 hits. A massive weapon can hit a unit of infantry and cause 1 casualty. That's daft. If they must got the all random all the time route, at least give it 2D3. D6 is absurd.

While I agree that d6 is not a good choice (I'd have done 2d3 or d6+1), how is your assertion that "a massive weapon can hit a unit of infantry and cause 1 casualty. That's daft." any different from the last several editions (and 2nd edition)? A scattered template can hit 1 guy too.

At least in 7ed if you hit a unit of space marines, they where most certainly going to die with your S8 AP3. Now you have random wounds AND they get a save.

 docdoom77 wrote:
While I agree that d6 is not a good choice (I'd have done 2d3 or d6+1), how is your assertion that "a massive weapon can hit a unit of infantry and cause 1 casualty. That's daft." any different from the last several editions (and 2nd edition)? A scattered template can hit 1 guy too.

Because the shot didn't vanish into the ether. As you said yourself, the shot scattered. It could hit other things. It could hit one thing in the unit you targeted and then hit something else in another unit. It was an entity that had a certain range of threat even when it completely missed its mark. Hell, I once had a Demolisher destroy itself 'cause of a bad scatter roll.

This makes it like explosions aren't a thing, how you can score a direct hit and then still only hit 1 guy?

 Mymearan wrote:

Yep it's going to want to target either elite infantry or single models. Makes sense, but I don't know about the 1D6 hits... it's too swingy in this case, much more so than the 2D6 charge (which I'm in favour of) that at least has an uneven distribution.

"If a Leman Russ tank commander is within 6" the battle cannon can reroll the number of hits"

Something like that could exist.

 Mymearan wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Freddy Kruger wrote:
I like how everyone is saying the good old Russ tank got terrible with the new random hits with it's battle cannon.
I'm sure that it used to be ordinance. It's now just a heavy weapon on the new article (assuming the battle cannon wasn't heavy before). That means no rule for scatter of its not ordinance? I think the Russ just became more reliable and tougher...

I'm on the fence with the battle cannon.

I think it's targets won't be regular 1 wound infantry, but rather big targets and multi-wound infantry (which I think Orks will be).

Yep it's going to want to target either elite infantry or single models. Makes sense, but I don't know about the 1D6 hits... it's too swingy in this case, much more so than the 2D6 charge (which I'm in favour of) that at least has an uneven distribution.

So just bring 3 of them like any self respecting Imperial Guard player will do

I wonder what stats the Doomdays Cannon will have given it has two profiles.

Youn wrote:
Am I missing something or are Chaos Terminators with their older weapon configuration going to be better then Modern Terminators with a stormbolter.


Twin Linked Bolter - 24" AP - Dam 1 --- Rapid Fire 2 = 2 shots at 24" and 4 shots at 12"

Vs
Stormbolter - 24" AP - Dam 1 -- Assault 2? = 2 shots at 24"

We don't know what Assault does yet. And also there's no reason why Storm bolters keep at 2 shots - they may change to 3 or 4.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Explosives. Uhh... just as I feared/predicted. Battlecannon gets D6 hits. A massive weapon can hit a unit of infantry and cause 1 casualty. That's daft. If they must got the all random all the time route, at least give it 2D3. D6 is absurd.

I am guessing they're going for the "the shot was wide so the explosion was to the side and didn't cause that much damage" route. It's silly but that's how it's gonna be.

I mean, that easily could happen in the current system with a bad scatter dice roll. Not sure why this is wildly different.

Also, I don't think any of us would want the top-end damage result of a single Russ shot to be 36 wounds (12 hits plus 3 wounds apiece). Unlikely, sure, but I don't think those kind of shells should ever have the possibility of acting like a Destroyer weapon. Oops, I read the suggestion as 2D6. Ignore me.

1d6 hits plus D3 damage make them pretty good at damaging big things, alright at firing at hordes, and really good against elite infantry. If you're worried about dealing more damage to hordes, well, that's what the sponson heavy bolters are for.

 Kirasu wrote:


SOMEHOW they managed to make the leman russ even more terrible than it currently is.

Pfffffffffffff, you serious?
The main cannon can now absolutely slaughter single model units. We are talking about a potential of EIGHTEEN damage to a single model. It's just a role shift away from being a horde/Space Marine in the open-killer to a vehicle/Monster/Character if targetable killer, while still dealing good damage to Marines in the open and also now being REALLY good against Terminators (who get a modified 4+ save and as the they now have 2 wounds are also affected by the D3 damage, meanwhile D6 hits mean that likely most of a classic 5 men terminator unit will be hit as well).

If split-fire being the indication that weapon systems on vehicles can also target different targets, you can just use sponson weapons to effectively kill infantry while the battle cannon shoots a juicy terminator unit, vehicle or monster, especially if not moving results in unmodified BS/to hit rolls. Guard doesn't lack tools to kill massed TEQ anyway.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
While I agree that d6 is not a good choice (I'd have done 2d3 or d6+1), how is your assertion that "a massive weapon can hit a unit of infantry and cause 1 casualty. That's daft." any different from the last several editions (and 2nd edition)? A scattered template can hit 1 guy too.

Because the shot didn't vanish into the ether. As you said yourself, the shot scattered. It could hit other things. It could hit one thing in the unit you targeted and then hit something else in another unit. It was an entity that had a certain range of threat even when it completely missed its mark. Hell, I once had a Demolisher destroy itself 'cause of a bad scatter roll.

This makes it like explosions aren't a thing, how you can score a direct hit and then still only hit 1 guy?

But rolling a "1" doesn't represent a direct hit. It represents the unit catching the edge of the explosion, just like a scattered template that hits 1 guy. You're correct that it can no longer hit other things, but that was true in 3rd edition too (a miss with a blast did nothing).

I get that you prefer templates. That's totally fine, but saying that rolling a '1' is a direct hit seems a little silly to me.

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
My RW Black Knights are gonna have a fething field day. 4 Plasma shots per rider at 12"

Haha the whole Ravenwing just got a huge boost! Double the shots! Sgt can use his combi special weapon multiple times!

I'm loving it!

true, if they have all the current options I will need to remodel my sergeants (depending on cost of combi-weapons). This would be super broken right now. So I assume there will be some changes.

 Freddy Kruger wrote:
I like how everyone is saying the good old Russ tank got terrible with the new random hits with it's battle cannon.
I'm sure that it used to be ordinance. It's now just a heavy weapon on the new article (assuming the battle cannon wasn't heavy before). That means no rule for scatter of its not ordinance? I think the Russ just became more reliable and tougher...

The russ can also take a hull mounted LC and twin HB sponsons.

That means a russ is chucking out the following
1d6 STR 8, AP -2. D3 wounds
1 STR 9, AP -2, D6 wounds
6 STR 5, AP-1 1 wound shots

This is on a T8, 3+ save, 12 wound platform. It's not an 'overwhelming amount of firepower' level of shooting ... but it's not bad.

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:


SOMEHOW they managed to make the leman russ even more terrible than it currently is.

Pfffffffffffff, you serious?
The main cannon can now absolutely slaughter single model units. We are talking about a potential of EIGHTEEN damage to a single model. It's just a role shift away from being a horde/Space Marine in the open-killer to a vehicle/Monster/Character if targetable killer, while still dealing good damage to Marines in the open and also now being REALLY good against Terminators (who get a modified 4+ save and as the they now have 2 wounds are also affected by the D3 damage).

If split-fire being the indication that weapon systems on vehicles can also target different targets, you can just use sponson weapons to effectively kill infantry while the battle cannon shoots a juicy terminator unit, vehicle or monster, especially if not moving results in unmodified BS/to hit rolls. Guard doesn't lack tools to kill massed TEQ anyway.

That's the job of a vanquisher cannon, not a battle cannon. I'm sure the vanquisher will do a way better job.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Because the shot didn't vanish into the ether. As you said yourself, the shot scattered. It could hit other things. It could hit one thing in the unit you targeted and then hit something else in another unit. It was an entity that had a certain range of threat even when it completely missed its mark. Hell, I once had a Demolisher destroy itself 'cause of a bad scatter roll.

And all those bullets, krak missiles and lascannon shots that miss their intended targets could accidentally hit other things. Why are you not bothered by this not being modelled?

 Zewrath wrote:

Claiming that daemon princes are "about the same size as Guilliman" is a postulate made on a hugely misinformed basis.

Hrmmm.... it's almost like they're using a different set of non-special character models to base their hugely misinformed postulate on....

Breng77 wrote:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
My RW Black Knights are gonna have a fething field day. 4 Plasma shots per rider at 12"

Haha the whole Ravenwing just got a huge boost! Double the shots! Sgt can use his combi special weapon multiple times!

I'm loving it!

true, if they have all the current options I will need to remodel my sergeants (depending on cost of combi-weapons). This would be super broken right now. So I assume there will be some changes.

Thank the Emprah all my RW sarges and knights have magnetized arms


Automatically Appended Next Post:


Was about to write this.

Also, it also has the potential to do ONE damage to single model.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Freddy Kruger wrote:
I like how everyone is saying the good old Russ tank got terrible with the new random hits with it's battle cannon.
I'm sure that it used to be ordinance. It's now just a heavy weapon on the new article (assuming the battle cannon wasn't heavy before). That means no rule for scatter of its not ordinance? I think the Russ just became more reliable and tougher...

The russ can also take a hull mounted LC and twin HB sponsons.

That means a russ is chucking out the following
1d6 STR 8, AP -2. D3 wounds
1 STR 9, AP -2, D6 wounds
6 STR 5, AP-1 1 wound shots

This is on a T8, 3+ save, 12 wound platform. It's not an 'overwhelming amount of firepower' level of shooting ... but it's not bad.

OR just keep its heavy bolter on the front for 9 Str 5 AP -1 shots.

 Kirasu wrote:

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:


SOMEHOW they managed to make the leman russ even more terrible than it currently is.

Pfffffffffffff, you serious?
The main cannon can now absolutely slaughter single model units. We are talking about a potential of EIGHTEEN damage to a single model. It's just a role shift away from being a horde/Space Marine in the open-killer to a vehicle/Monster/Character if targetable killer, while still dealing good damage to Marines in the open and also now being REALLY good against Terminators (who get a modified 4+ save and as the they now have 2 wounds are also affected by the D3 damage).

If split-fire being the indication that weapon systems on vehicles can also target different targets, you can just use sponson weapons to effectively kill infantry while the battle cannon shoots a juicy terminator unit, vehicle or monster, especially if not moving results in unmodified BS/to hit rolls. Guard doesn't lack tools to kill massed TEQ anyway.

That's the job of a vanquisher cannon, not a battle cannon. I'm sure the vanquisher will do a way better job.

Doubt it will kill Terminators or Marines in the open as efficiently though, you know what they say about versatility

Stormravens got a lot more dakka.

I like the melta rule - 2D6 damage would have been too brutal IMO, so 2D6 pick highest I like. Keeps the traditional way melta works nicely without becoming too silly.

Doubt it will kill Terminators or Marines in the open as efficiently though, you know what they say about versatility

That it sucks in 40k and you get wiped out by units that do one thing really well ? :p

So the metla versus dread then and now:

7th=================

At close range

1/36 to do nothing
3/36 to glance
30/36 to pen

1/3 to kaboom

4.5 shots to guarantee HP kill, but honestly you'd likely get the explode first.

8th=================

At close range

2 wounds or 4 shots to kill.

So it's roughly the same, but no swingy exploding.

I also just realized all my TL-Autocannon Dreads are putting out 8 shots each (assuming no change to number of shots from an autocannon).

This also makes the TL-lascannon on a dread more attractive. A TL-Autocannon, TL-Lascannon Dread could be really nice against medium to large targets.

MaxT wrote:
I like the melta rule - 2D6 damage would have been too brutal IMO, so 2D6 pick highest I like. Keeps the traditional way melta works nicely without becoming too silly.

I would have preferred 2D3 damage but I can live with this.

Well, Meltagun solves EVERYTHING except hordes now. Meltavets will kill those characters, that landraider, unit in cover, whatever. While I like meltaguns in general, they could have used a nerf more than a buff.

Twin linking going to double shots is bad. It was a solid mechanic that kept things reasonable before and had distinct uses. If they wanted to mess around they could have increased their damage to reflect the double bullets.

"Yer gonna have to keep track of twenty wound models, but wether or not you used yer combi weapon was too much book keeping, so we had to ditch that."

Does battlecannon auto hit? Doesn't seem to, unlike flamers.

Daedalus81 wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:
Sweet twin linked punisher cannons is 40 dice.
Time to order a crate of dice!!!
Vendetta with 3x twin linked lascannons are 6 lascannon shots at str 9, -3 armour, d6 wounds. And a potential 36wounds!!! Of course only Ave of 18 wounds!!!

Yea, I think, things like this won't be a straight port.

Ya there are going to have to nueter the punisher cannon because a vulture or punisher tank with hvy bolter sponsons will bury most targets in weight of dice. this is potentially a problem with always wounding on a 6.

That is going to make a Grey Knight Stormraven scary...

Twin Linked Assault Cannon R36 S6 AP -2 D:1 Heavy 8
Twin Linked Lascannon R48 S9 AP-3 D:1D6 Heavy 2
Right Side Sponson Hurricane Bolter R24 S4 AP - D:1 Rapid Fire 6
Left Side Sponson Hurricane Bolter R24 S4 AP - D:1 Rapid Fire 6
Four Stormstrike missiles R72 S8 AP -1 D:1D3 Heavy 1, One use

That seems like a huge amount of shooting for a transport. You don't want to be within 12" of that when it decides to unload.

Love the twin-linking and combi-weapon change. The rules finally seem to be heading in the direction that feels more natural for me when I think about it thematically overall. Less unit restrictions, more free flow on the battle field.

So much random has been removed from annoying areas and added to areas where it is nice.

I would rather it be a chance to kill rather than guaranteed instant death. I like the idea that we can think of it as glancing hits rather than everything being all or nothing. Before they were limited by the AP system, now they can have more nuanced ranges for each weapon.

Overall I really like the weapons profiles we are seeing and we can get a pretty good idea of how AP ranges will translate

AP4 - 1
AP3 - 2
AP2 - 3
AP1 - 4

Weapons strength stays the same. We also see that even with fixed basic statlines they have no problems making it plus or minus to hit (and wound probably) as abilities. So for example a unit with the flyer type might have a set of rules that goes with it like -2 to hit. You might then have the keyword vehicle that represents how a flying vehicle works, so on and so forth.

Really excited about what the key word system has to offer as it streamlines everything while also making it really easy to make changes and updates without having to republish everything.

"Units with the "Flyer" Keyword now operate this way"

A lot of this will depend on points, but I expect we will see options priced based on the wielder rather than a set price across all units. I look forward to seeing guardsmen paying less for meltas than marines. It will be interesting to see if they stick to the multiples of 5 route or if they will add in more variance(like 3 or 4 point upgrades)

So on and so forth