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 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I think "twin weapon x" will simply be listed as a different weapon to "weapon x". For example a Predator Destructor might have:
"this vehicle is equipped with two lascannon in the sponsons and a twin-linked lascannon in the turret.

Weapon Range Type ...
Lascannon 72" Heavy 1 ...
Twin lascannon 72" Heavy 2 ..."

Exactly this. There is no "twin-linked" rule. They're just weapons with the "twin" prefix that get more shots on their profile.

 davou wrote:
jesus, not sure I like the combi weapons being able to fire forever.... Sternguard were NOT hurting for shooting power.

depends on pricing, if they are 5 points they are way to good, at 15...They also allow for very multi-task units. Sternguard with combi-meltas are straight up better than ones with meltas, So I would expect a combi-melta to be more expensive than a melta. I think I would also want combi-weapons priced separately now because they vary so much in usefulness.

I like how everyone is saying the good old Russ tank got terrible with the new random hits with it's battle cannon.
I'm sure that it used to be ordinance. It's now just a heavy weapon on the new article (assuming the battle cannon wasn't heavy before). That means no rule for scatter of its not ordinance? I think the Russ just became more reliable and tougher...

 davou wrote:
jesus, not sure I like the combi weapons being able to fire forever.... Sternguard were NOT hurting for shooting power.

Depends if the points cost changes also !

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I think "twin weapon x" will simply be listed as a different weapon to "weapon x". For example a Predator Destructor might have:
"this vehicle is equipped with two lascannon in the sponsons and a twin-linked lascannon in the turret.

Weapon Range Type ...
Lascannon 72" Heavy 1 ...
Twin lascannon 72" Heavy 2 ..."

This.

So a Hurricane Bolter would just read: Hurricane Bolter Rapid Fire 6.

 Mymearan wrote:

 nintura wrote:
So Hurricane Bolters get 12 shots at 12" or less? Land Raider Crusaders are going to be terrifying.

No... they get 12 shots at 24" Very cool indeed.

How so? They fire as if not moving, sure. but they are 3 sets of TL-Bolt guns right? Meaning they get 1 shot at 24", or 2 at 12". But being TL they get double. So 4 at 12" x 3 sets = 12 shots at 12"

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:

 nintura wrote:
So Hurricane Bolters get 12 shots at 12" or less? Land Raider Crusaders are going to be terrifying.

No... they get 12 shots at 24" Very cool indeed.

No. Hurricane bolters are 3 twinlinked bolters which would mean (assuming a straight conversion) that they would be effectively rapid fire 6. Six shots out to 24" and 12 up to 12."

I though they were just twin-linked, 6-shot bolters without rapid fire based on the statement that they would have 12 shots at 12". My bad.

Ok...

Twin-Linked weapons. In 2nd Ed you'd fire once, and hit twice. In 3rd-7th you'd fire once, hit once, but re-roll if you missed. Now you just fire twice. I'm totally ok with this.

Combi-Weapons. Hey! They remembered that weapons can be reloaded. 'Bout fething time!

Explosives. Uhh... just as I feared/predicted. Battlecannon gets D6 hits. A massive weapon can hit a unit of infantry and cause 1 casualty. That's daft. If they must got the all random all the time route, at least give it 2D3. D6 is absurd.

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:
So the HB profile, is it Heavy 6 because it's twin? Or is that it's new base profile?

Little confused there.

Yeah looks it's a specific profile for a twin-linked heavy bolter.

so as rapid fire

a chaos termi can with combi-bolter:

fire two shots 12-24 -1bs
one shot 12-24

two shots 0-12
four shots 0-12 -1bs

pretty flexible!

Leman Russ is now officially the Gambling Addiction Tank (GAT).

Random roll for # of shots!
Random roll for # of hits
Random roll for # of wounded models
Random roll for # of wounds per wounded model!

A...maz...ing

My RW Black Knights are gonna have a fething field day. 4 Plasma shots per rider at 12"

Chaos marines got a huge boost with Combi-Bolters. Wow. Re-usable melta's? Their bolters are storm bolters that can get 4 shots at short range.

I was thinking that with some of these shooting & close combat changes, armies could mow down swathes of the enemy.

I was also thinking, and have been around since the start of 40k, that GW will drop point costs on models.

Thus fulfilling their desire (stated in WD years ago about wanting 40k to be more like epic) about huge armies on the board. It also makes sense in terms of sales. If there were 50 models in your 2k army, I am suspecting they'll make it to where you'll need 75 to even 100 models for a 2k army. Maybe even make (unarmed) transports free & pay a point cost for weaponizing it

Bucketload o' Dice Edition 2: Iconontheone Boogalo

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
My RW Black Knights are gonna have a fething field day. 4 Plasma shots per rider at 12"

9" assuming Plasma Talons are still 18" range. But yeah pretty good!

Also Kastelan robots, potentially 9 Str 6 shots each now

 Freddy Kruger wrote:
I like how everyone is saying the good old Russ tank got terrible with the new random hits with it's battle cannon.
I'm sure that it used to be ordinance. It's now just a heavy weapon on the new article (assuming the battle cannon wasn't heavy before). That means no rule for scatter of its not ordinance? I think the Russ just became more reliable and tougher...

I'm on the fence with the battle cannon.

I think it's targets won't be regular 1 wound infantry, but rather big targets and multi-wound infantry (which I think Orks will be).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Explosives. Uhh... just as I feared/predicted. Battlecannon gets D6 hits. A massive weapon can hit a unit of infantry and cause 1 casualty. That's daft. If they must got the all random all the time route, at least give it 2D3. D6 is absurd.

I am guessing they're going for the "the shot was wide so the explosion was to the side and didn't cause that much damage" route. It's silly but that's how it's gonna be.

and math hammer time:
chaos terminator combi-bolter:

fire two shots 12-24 -1bs: 1hits
one shot 12-24: 0.667 hits

two shots 0-12: 1.33hits
four shots 0-12 -1bs: 2 hits

So always double tap my chaotic friends its statistically better

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
My RW Black Knights are gonna have a fething field day. 4 Plasma shots per rider at 12"

Haha the whole Ravenwing just got a huge boost! Double the shots! Sgt can use his combi special weapon multiple times!

I'm loving it!

TonyL707 wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
My RW Black Knights are gonna have a fething field day. 4 Plasma shots per rider at 12"

9" assuming Plasma Talons are still 18" range. But yeah pretty good!

Also Kastelan robots, potentially 9 Str 6 shots each now

Yeah, mistook them for plasma guns momentarily. thanks

 lessthanjeff wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Ultimately this character size debate is about arbitrary cutoff point. Such thing previously existed with characters who were MCs. There is always some edge cases that will feel a bit weird either way, in any system where the choice is binary.

I'm interested in seeing how Daemon Princes are handled, they're about the same size as Guilliman.

???

Mortarion looks (from the leaks) like he's going to be around the same size as Magnus and as shown multiple times in this thread, Magnus is huge and easily dwarfs Girlyman by several magnitudes. IIRC Angron is sometimes described being as big as a lesser titan, in terms of size, and Fulgrim is supposedly a tall several limbed, serpent looking, creature with huge wings.

Claiming that daemon princes are "about the same size as Guilliman" is a postulate made on a hugely misinformed basis.

If you look at Belakor, he's probably smaller than Guilliman actually.

I'm conflicted on where daemon princes will fall because I feel like they should have had a lot more wounds than they did in 7th so I wouldn't be surprised if they went above 10 but the fact remains that in 7th they were definitely set to have less than Guilliman so they could come out at 7ish like a dreadnought or something.

Daemon Princes have often been a funny point with Games Workshop

In 2nd, the Daemon Princes were the most powerful special characters around and had stats that went above 10- even though the edition did not normally allow for this (Doombreed had a Ld value of 12, for example). M'kachen was even a character Lord of Change who had been 'elevated' to the rank of Prince.

There are a lot of things that they might do with daemon princes.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Ok...

Twin-Linked weapons. In 2nd Ed you'd fire once, and hit twice. In 3rd-7th you'd fire once, hit once, but re-roll if you missed. Now you just fire twice. I'm totally ok with this.

Combi-Weapons. Hey! They remembered that weapons can be reloaded. 'Bout fething time!

Explosives. Uhh... just as I feared/predicted. Battlecannon gets D6 hits. A massive weapon can hit a unit of infantry and cause 1 casualty. That's daft. If they must got the all random all the time route, at least give it 2D3. D6 is absurd.

While I agree that d6 is not a good choice (I'd have done 2d3 or d6+1), how is your assertion that "a massive weapon can hit a unit of infantry and cause 1 casualty. That's daft." any different from the last several editions (and 2nd edition)? A scattered template can hit 1 guy too.

Blasts should at very least have automatic hits to make up for their random number of shots.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Freddy Kruger wrote:
I like how everyone is saying the good old Russ tank got terrible with the new random hits with it's battle cannon.
I'm sure that it used to be ordinance. It's now just a heavy weapon on the new article (assuming the battle cannon wasn't heavy before). That means no rule for scatter of its not ordinance? I think the Russ just became more reliable and tougher...

I'm on the fence with the battle cannon.

I think it's targets won't be regular 1 wound infantry, but rather big targets and multi-wound infantry (which I think Orks will be).

I like this thought.

New edition equals new roles for different weapons.

Generally just a complete rethinking of all old tactics!

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Explosives. Uhh... just as I feared/predicted. Battlecannon gets D6 hits. A massive weapon can hit a unit of infantry and cause 1 casualty. That's daft. If they must got the all random all the time route, at least give it 2D3. D6 is absurd.

I am guessing they're going for the "the shot was wide so the explosion was to the side and didn't cause that much damage" route. It's silly but that's how it's gonna be.

It was pretty normal in prior editions to 8th for big blasts to scatter so far as to only hit the odd model in a unit. It makes battle cannons random as hell but they pretty much were anyway!

We're probably safe to make these assumptions:

- Weapons are not likely changing their strength.
- AP1 = -4; AP2 = -3 and so on.

What else can we conclude?

Ordnance is no longer a thing?

 Latro_ wrote:
and math hammer time:
chaos terminator combi-bolter:

fire two shots 12-24 -1bs: 1hits
one shot 12-24: 0.667 hits

two shots 0-12: 1.33hits
four shots 0-12 -1bs: 2 hits

So always double tap my chaotic friends its statistically better

Maybe. It's more likely that any combi weapon that resulted in the twin-linked rule in 7th edition will become a "Twin (insert weapon name here)." If that's the case it will be a Twin Bolter and have Rapid Fire 2.

Am I missing something or are Chaos Terminators with their older weapon configuration going to be better then Modern Terminators with a stormbolter.


Twin Linked Bolter - 24" AP - Dam 1 --- Rapid Fire 2 = 2 shots at 24" and 4 shots at 12"

Vs
Stormbolter - 24" AP - Dam 1 -- Assault 2? = 2 shots at 24"

 docdoom77 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Ok...

Twin-Linked weapons. In 2nd Ed you'd fire once, and hit twice. In 3rd-7th you'd fire once, hit once, but re-roll if you missed. Now you just fire twice. I'm totally ok with this.

Combi-Weapons. Hey! They remembered that weapons can be reloaded. 'Bout fething time!

Explosives. Uhh... just as I feared/predicted. Battlecannon gets D6 hits. A massive weapon can hit a unit of infantry and cause 1 casualty. That's daft. If they must got the all random all the time route, at least give it 2D3. D6 is absurd.

While I agree that d6 is not a good choice (I'd have done 2d3 or d6+1), how is your assertion that "a massive weapon can hit a unit of infantry and cause 1 casualty. That's daft." any different from the last several editions (and 2nd edition)? A scattered template can hit 1 guy too.

Agreed.

At least now you're guaranteed to hit at least one guy. I get thematic appeal of a blast scattering away, but this makes those types of weapons much more reliable.

I loathed taking blast weapons before for that very reason. Now I can reliably expect at least a few hits per round.