40k New Edition Summary - 14th June 17: Lord Duncan paints Primaris in Gravis/non-codex SM focus

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Grinshanks**

Vorian wrote:
Grinshanks wrote:
nintura wrote:
Malaur wrote:
Man, it looks like I sold my Daemon summon army at the right time!

I actually think summoning is going to be really, really good. It's like deepstrike, but you get to choose which you want at what time for what purpose. Need a heavy weapon? Get it. Need infantry to bog something down? get it instead. your opponent missing most of their heavy weaponry? Get that greater daemon out there.

This is very similar to Magic: The Gatherings Wish spells. They allow you to go to your sideboard and get the answer you need.

It's like deepstrike except:

It requires a model who can summon them to do so.
It requires that model be in a position on the board where it is useful to summon.
It requires you pass a psychic test to access some of your army.
It requires you spend more points than what the unit you summon is worth (unless you're a real life wizard who can set aside a number of points that is perfect for every unit configuration)

Most if this is also true of the old summoning rules, but the models were free, so it didn't put you at a large disadvantage like this does.

But free models really wasn't fair too. So basically what I'm saying is that summoning NEEDED a nerf, but let's not pretend that these summoning rules are in anyway really good.

And you get to change what you deliver, where you want to deliver to exactly what you need at that time.

It's also not like the psyker is completely wasted points.

Sorry, your argument doesn't add up.

You can already do that. Example is GSC can summon from a range of units, with any weapon combination.

Plus that doesn't invalidate any of my points at all. It's a bonus sure, But the net result is that summoning is a worse option than just picking a flexible unit and deepstriking.

**ZebioLizard2**

Twoshoes23 wrote:
Albino Squirrel wrote:
Now I can kind of see what some people have been saying, about being worried that tournament gamers are helping so much to refine the rules. People always say that a tightly balanced set of tournament friendly rules benefits everyone, including the more narrative gamers. But now I'm thinking that's not really true.

I'm starting to suspect that a lot of the little details that don't make sense are in there for "balance" or tournament purposes. For example, someone probably noticed that the striking scorpions aren't good against space marines. Because most armies have space marines in them, they pointed out that nobody is going to take striking scorpions to a tournament unless they can do something in a game against a space marine army. So they make mandiblasters cause mortal wounds to make them a more attractive choice to the tournament gamer, while not making any sense and breaking a bit of the immersion for some of the more narrative gamers that play the game in order to experience the background on the tabletop.

I like a lot of the major changes to the rules, but whether or not I enjoy the game will probably come down to the missions and all the little details on the individual units. And I'm beginning to worry that they are going to get a lot of the details wrong in their willingness to sacrifice immersion for balance.

+1

I hope you are wrong, but I also have picked up on this when they said orders are automatic for Guard. I know they are trying to streamline but still...

..Why is balance bad again?

**kestral**

Power and Point stuff looks good, and I like the idea of sideboards. I hope they apply it to all armies in some form.

**tneva82**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Eyjio wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
I mentioned it a few times but Mortal Wounds may be taking the place of rending. mandiblasters rendingnthrough he weak points of armour is super duper fluffy.

But we already saw a rending weapon in the soulreaper cannon. It just had -1 AP more than expected; none of this mortal wounds nonsense.

Because all weapons never change rules like how sniper weapons never lost rending or pinning. Oh wait.

New edition, new rules, weapons based more on their fluff to determine their crunch.

Except we already saw with mandiblaster they don't care about fluff.

As far as point article. No surprises except seems gw got rid of fixation to multiples of 5.

Also seems they missed golden opportunity to rescale points. With decades of constant price decreases bottom scale is getting crowded. Standard point size doubled and all points roughly doubled would have been good

**ClockworkZion**

nintura wrote:
docdoom77 wrote:
This was one of the least informative previews to date. How about some printed examples?

I'd really like to see how they're going to put such a granular points system in a different part of the book without making it a nightmare to list build by hand.

It's overall a good plan. I like the ability to re-point down the line, but it sounds awfully clunky in practice.

27 points for a freaking multi-melta? o.O

Considering it's 2d6 drop the lowest at 12" vs EVERYTHING and is only -1 BS to move and shoot with, it's worth around that much.

**Daedalus81**

Breng77 wrote:

My reading of what they wrote is that Multi-meltas are now the most expensive option on tactical squads. That could be inferring too much. If so Lascannons will be cheaper than multi-meltas. In general Multi-meltas benefit more from the new rules than lascannons do.

Just reread it and you're probably right. Good catch!

**zedsdead**

Power levels are great for getting new players into the game. You can just set a determined Power level of there army and work on points tweeking and optimization later if they decide on more competitive gaming....this is a win win IMHO.

**Ghaz**

kestral wrote:
Power and Point stuff looks good, and I like the idea of sideboards. I hope they apply it to all armies in some form.

Some armies do have a limited form of 'summoning'. For example, the Necron Canoptek Spyder's 'Scarab Hive' rule which allows the spyder to create scarabs would be a form of summoning.

**Vorian**

Grinshanks wrote:
Vorian wrote:
Grinshanks wrote:
nintura wrote:
Malaur wrote:
Man, it looks like I sold my Daemon summon army at the right time!

I actually think summoning is going to be really, really good. It's like deepstrike, but you get to choose which you want at what time for what purpose. Need a heavy weapon? Get it. Need infantry to bog something down? get it instead. your opponent missing most of their heavy weaponry? Get that greater daemon out there.

This is very similar to Magic: The Gatherings Wish spells. They allow you to go to your sideboard and get the answer you need.

It's like deepstrike except:

It requires a model who can summon them to do so.
It requires that model be in a position on the board where it is useful to summon.
It requires you pass a psychic test to access some of your army.
It requires you spend more points than what the unit you summon is worth (unless you're a real life wizard who can set aside a number of points that is perfect for every unit configuration)

Most if this is also true of the old summoning rules, but the models were free, so it didn't put you at a large disadvantage like this does.

But free models really wasn't fair too. So basically what I'm saying is that summoning NEEDED a nerf, but let's not pretend that these summoning rules are in anyway really good.

And you get to change what you deliver, where you want to deliver to exactly what you need at that time.

It's also not like the psyker is completely wasted points.

Sorry, your argument doesn't add up.

You can already do that. Example is GSC can summon from a range of units, with any weapon combination.

Plus that doesn't invalidate any of my points at all. It's a bonus sure, But the net result is that summoning is a worse option than just picking a flexible unit and deepstriking.

Your point is generally that it's not automatic... well, no. You need to use tactics, sure.

At which point you get to summon what you need where you need it. You may not like it, but that doesn't change the fact it isn't useless.

**frozenwastes**

"For example, if you’re playing the “Ambush” mission, the side with the highest total Power Level for their army will always play the role of the attacker, where the smaller enemy force will need to escape the trap."

I'm really liking the idea of Power Level as a quick and easy approach to the game. If a friend and I bring out some models we want to play with and I end up with 85 and he has 110, then we can just go to the list of scenarios made for unequal power levels and play one of them.

This might be a really great tool for busting up the "play every game like it's a round in a tournament" mindset that dominates some areas.

**Mymearan**

Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
In matched play, your points will be capped across the whole game. So if you’re planning to summon units to the battlefield, you will need to set points aside to do this. You won’t need to specify what the points will be for though, so this does leave you with your options open and if during the game, you decide that what you really need is a fast combat unit instead of a durable objective holder, you’ll be able to summon the right tool for the job, points permitting.

So you just set aside say 200 pts for summoning and decide to summon bloodletters on game 1, daemonettes on game 2, etc etc?

Yes

Interesting. I do hope this only affect summoned units (daemons, etc) and not Reserve as a whole...

That's exactly how it works in AoS so very likely.

**Breng77**

What they didn't mention and I am keen to know is - are the points for weapons consistent across all units that can use that weapon?

My hope is that they are not

**yellowfever**

Daemon players have no room to whine. I've had opponents summon damn near half the point value of the original army size. Summoning needed to be nerfed.

I like how they did it. And to an earlier poster, you most definitely can set aside exact points for summoning. Just pre select the units you will bring. But that will kill your ability to adapt.

**ClockworkZion**

Breng77 wrote:
What they didn't mention and I am keen to know is - are the points for weapons consistent across all units that can use that weapon?

My hope is that they are not

My guess: Inside of an army they likely are, but between different armies they'll likely see different points costs. S6 powerfists aren't the same value as an S8 powerfist afterAll.

**labmouse42**

Daedalus81 wrote:
nintura wrote:

27 points for a freaking multi-melta? o.O

Grav pistol is cheaper (but also perhaps weaker).

My guess is they want to encourage players to take the pistols.
Make the pistol cheaper, and it becomes a more attractive option to take.
There is a reason you never saw a IC with more than a bolt pistol in the past.

**tneva82**

nintura wrote:
Malaur wrote:
Man, it looks like I sold my Daemon summon army at the right time!

I actually think summoning is going to be really, really good. It's like deepstrike, but you get to choose which you want at what time for what purpose. Need a heavy weapon? Get it. Need infantry to bog something down? get it instead. your opponent missing most of their heavy weaponry? Get that greater daemon out there.

This is very similar to Magic: The Gatherings Wish spells. They allow you to go to your sideboard and get the answer you need.

Why you think 40k summoning is more useful than aos where it went to oblivion?

**labmouse42**

nintura wrote:
27 points for a freaking multi-melta? o.O

The MM can now move and shoot at only -1 BS instead of snap shooting. It also now has split fire.
That's a huge advantage over 7th. That's why they are more expensive.

**EnTyme**

I do like the concept of power levels. It'll really be useful when trying to introduce someone to the game. "Oh. You want an introductory game and brought a box of Tacticals, a Librarian, and a Rhino? That's about PL 200. I'll bring twenty Necron Warriors and five Immortals. That's about the same. No. Don't worry about weapon costs and bonus powers right now. We'll get to that next game."

**Breng77**

frozenwastes wrote:
"For example, if you’re playing the “Ambush” mission, the side with the highest total Power Level for their army will always play the role of the attacker, where the smaller enemy force will need to escape the trap."

I'm really liking the idea of Power Level as a quick and easy approach to the game. If a friend and I bring out some models we want to play with and I end up with 85 and he has 110, then we can just go to the list of scenarios made for unequal power levels and play one of them.

This might be a really great tool for busting up the "play every game like it's a round in a tournament" mindset that dominates some areas.

I'm sure it will depend on players, but for quick pick-up casual games I like the power idea because you can quickly put something together and don't need to have lists for every possible point value. So if I show up and a new guy only has what would amount to 750 points, we can just play power level and grab a quick and dirty game. Maybe using an unbalanced scenario like ambush etc. I also think it works really well for things like Apocalypse level games where granular points really don't matter it would be much faster to say each side gets 1000 points (or whatever) and go at it without costing out all the options for every unit.

**frozenwastes**

The summoning rules are (once again) right out of Age of Sigmar. They work except for one instance. When models summon other models are removed in the process. You have to pay for the full cost of the new model but don't get any discount for losing the model you sacrificed to summon it.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Honestly I can live with the 27 point Multi-Melta because I can now play aggressively with Tactical Marines via shooting and charging.

**Requizen**

tneva82 wrote:
nintura wrote:
Malaur wrote:
Man, it looks like I sold my Daemon summon army at the right time!

I actually think summoning is going to be really, really good. It's like deepstrike, but you get to choose which you want at what time for what purpose. Need a heavy weapon? Get it. Need infantry to bog something down? get it instead. your opponent missing most of their heavy weaponry? Get that greater daemon out there.

This is very similar to Magic: The Gatherings Wish spells. They allow you to go to your sideboard and get the answer you need.

Why you think 40k summoning is more useful than aos where it went to oblivion?

Honestly I think Summoning is fine in AoS, and it's something that, if explored, could be a perfectly fine competitive list. Death already uses it in tourney lists, though generally just for Morghasts.

**labmouse42**

frozenwastes wrote:
The summoning rules are (once again) right out of Age of Sigmar. They work except for one instance. When models summon other models are removed in the process. You have to pay for the full cost of the new model but don't get any discount for losing the model you sacrificed to summon it.

Question - in AoS can you pay for upgrades in the summoned unit?

IE, can you give rewards to a greater daemon you summoned if you pay the points?

**nintura**

tneva82 wrote:
nintura wrote:
Malaur wrote:
Man, it looks like I sold my Daemon summon army at the right time!

I actually think summoning is going to be really, really good. It's like deepstrike, but you get to choose which you want at what time for what purpose. Need a heavy weapon? Get it. Need infantry to bog something down? get it instead. your opponent missing most of their heavy weaponry? Get that greater daemon out there.

This is very similar to Magic: The Gatherings Wish spells. They allow you to go to your sideboard and get the answer you need.

Why you think 40k summoning is more useful than aos where it went to oblivion?

This isn't AoS. Also, I've never played AoS. The game, despite having similar mechanics, will not play the same. Therefore it will have different requirements, and the outcome and needs will be different.

**Breng77**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
What they didn't mention and I am keen to know is - are the points for weapons consistent across all units that can use that weapon?

My hope is that they are not

My guess: Inside of an army they likely are, but between different armies they'll likely see different points costs. S6 powerfists aren't the same value as an S8 powerfist afterAll.

I mean I'd take this but I'd prefer they cost more on better units even within an army as a BS5 Melta gun isn't the same value as a BS4 melta gun. You are probably right as it would make things much less complicated though.

**Daedalus81**

frozenwastes wrote:
The summoning rules are (once again) right out of Age of Sigmar. They work except for one instance. When models summon other models are removed in the process. You have to pay for the full cost of the new model but don't get any discount for losing the model you sacrificed to summon it.

Doesn't usually hurt to bring more than one. There are also plenty of AoS abilities that bring models on without needing to cast.

**ZebioLizard2**

labmouse42 wrote:
frozenwastes wrote:
The summoning rules are (once again) right out of Age of Sigmar. They work except for one instance. When models summon other models are removed in the process. You have to pay for the full cost of the new model but don't get any discount for losing the model you sacrificed to summon it.
Question - in AoS can you pay for upgrades in the summoned unit?

IE, can you give rewards to a greater daemon you summoned if you pay the points?

In AoS there's no points for Wargear sorts.. So yes, in a way.

**Requizen**

labmouse42 wrote:
frozenwastes wrote:
The summoning rules are (once again) right out of Age of Sigmar. They work except for one instance. When models summon other models are removed in the process. You have to pay for the full cost of the new model but don't get any discount for losing the model you sacrificed to summon it.
Question - in AoS can you pay for upgrades in the summoned unit?

IE, can you give rewards to a greater daemon you summoned if you pay the points?

There are no upgrade points in AoS, you just have what's on the sheet. Essentially how Power Levels will work in NewHammer.

I'm betting with 40k you'll have to work that out at the time of summoning, or will only summon in baseline units.

**Desubot**

Im just waiting for those pl over 9000! apoc battle reps

liking everything so far. its interesting they blew up the old points costs in conjunction with the way the new rules will work.

at least its not a lazy copy pasta.

**frozenwastes**

Breng77 wrote:
I'm sure it will depend on players, but for quick pick-up casual games I like the power idea because you can quickly put something together and don't need to have lists for every possible point value. So if I show up and a new guy only has what would amount to 750 points, we can just play power level and grab a quick and dirty game. Maybe using an unbalanced scenario like ambush etc. I also think it works really well for things like Apocalypse level games where granular points really don't matter it would be much faster to say each side gets 1000 points (or whatever) and go at it without costing out all the options for every unit.

I think it'll be really useful. It's definitely faster than the Age of Sigmar points because of the much, much lower numbers. I'm sure there are some superspecial individuals on here that will look down on people for finding single digit numbers faster than adding 120 + 80 + 170 until they get to 1500, but for the average person it's going to be way faster.

I think you're right about the apocalypse level games. As well as "bring and battle" type multiplayer events.