Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Moving in a different direction, I was just thinking about wha we know about some points costs. A multi-melta Marine comes in at exactly 50 points. That was staggering to notice for me because that was a huge shift from the original 10 point upgrade it was.

Now I can imagine the Heavy Bolter going up the least, perhaps to 15 or 20 points from it's current cost, but what about the Heavy Flamer?

Currently it's 10 points on most models that can take it. With the loss of templates I was thinking that peraps we'll see a range buff (double range from the Flamer, so 16") since it,s a bigger weapon throwing out a stronger spray of promethium but bumping it to 2d6 hits or 2d3 (one has a higher number of average hits but is swingier, while the other gives more consistent hits than the Flamer and a higher minimum number of hits) could be done to show the same thing.

I am willing to guess it's going to copy the HB though in that it'll stay S5 and go to a -1 rend. But I can't puzzle out how they'll change it going forward other than that.

40 points for the MM marine.

The MM may be the only one with a significant cost increase since it hurts so much more now. Plus it could have extra shots. It's hard to sort it all out right now.

I don't see them doubling both the range and the hits on the Heavy Flamer. Seems a bit strong unless the point jump is really big. Maybe one or the other (probably not range, then we're talking about a different class of flamer weapon).

If it stays cheap I can see it being just S5 D6 hits -1Sv.

I just realized. So if you're paying [x] amount of points to summon something, then the objective benefit is that you're sending an untouched unit to a location that they may have had a tough time reaching in the first place.

The downside is that if your wizard/psyker is spending their time trying to summon something instead of casting other spells, then you are not only paying for the unit in points cost, but you are also paying for it by preventing your own wizard from being able to cast other useful spells.

So is transporting a unit of daemons from A to B truly worth locking down another unit for multiple turns? Especially if the summoned unit could have been casting spells or shooting the enemy as well. That's 2 units that you're disabling for multiple turns. I don't see how this could possibly make Pink Horrors worth summoning. Plaguebearers, I can see, but definitely not Pink Horrors.

Just imagine it, Sorcerer leads to Pink Horrors leads to Blue Horrors leads to Brimstone, and you're paying for each one of them, turning what could have been an advantage into sending your units out one at a time into a meat grinder. At least the Sorcerer and Horrors are likely to alive at the same time. With the rest, you actually have to wait for one to die to send in the other. It's a meat grinder by definition.

Daedalus81 wrote:
40 points for the MM marine.

The MM may be the only one with a significant cost increase since it hurts so much more now. Plus it could have extra shots. It's hard to sort it all out right now.

Oh, you're right. Math fail on my part there.

And it's true that it might be the only signifigant increase. But I can't see them skipping the change to give a little more difference between it and the regular flamer since it isn't bound by templates to determine it's AOE.

Then again, my primary army, and until recently, only, army was Sisters so maybe I just want to see some extra ranged options for them in terms of burning things.

Then again I'm the sort of nerd that hopes Volkite gets a chance to come back in the future via the army (by pullingit from a crypt on Terra like they did the Exorcist) since the weapon's special rule is defined as "the act of heating a substance so that it burns quickly". Plus the guns look cool.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fenris-77 wrote:
I don't see them doubling both the range and the hits on the Heavy Flamer. Seems a bit strong unless the point jump is really big. Maybe one or the other (probably not range, then we're talking about a different class of flamer weapon).

If it stays cheap I can see it being just S5 D6 hits -1Sv.

I meant it as a one or the other upgrade. Something like the Flamestorm cannon could justify both since it's a "compensating for something" sized flamer, but not the Heavy Flamer.

 pizzaguardian wrote:

shadowfinder wrote:

 pizzaguardian wrote:
Tervigons summoning was a bad thing and demon summoning is bad as well.

As an example to the question of "was gaunt summoning or scarab summoning that bad?"

The answer is a simple yes. In order to go any further i would like to see how it was a good thing. (Did people really forget in 5th where tervigons summoned 3x 3d6 models per turn? Anectodal evidence, the only that stopped our tyranid players was their model numbers running out)


Free summoning should have never existed and glad to see them gone. I even hope replacements are costed.

They create nothing but bloat for the game for rules such as how do you place them?, can you directly summon into combat since it is not a movement? .

You can have many many abilities that are fluffy and actually only work when they are answered correctly, which creates even more complex rules. Summoning is one of them and just too much hassle for what it brings to the game.

Tervigon had a 50% chance of never being able to spawn again each time you tried it. Also if you can't handle a 45 point unit of gaunt that die if you just kill the Tervigon something was wrong. and it wasn't the TYRANIDS. Tyranid and Necrons spawning was not a problem. Having unit that can summon other units that then could summon with no real risk was the issue. Not Necrons and Tyranids.

Ok, what did it add to the game than? Can we make the game work without that being free and giving the tervigon a discount?

Also lets go with your math,
*1st turn - 3 tervigons, 135 points of summon. (1 stops)
*2nd turn 2 tervigons 90 points of summon. (1 stops)
*3rd turn 1 tervigon summon 45 points summon (1 stops)

You can even make the math for only 5 batches, that still 200+ points worth of 5 different units. They can act as blockers or obj controllers.


These didn't need to be free and they don't need to be free now. Just make the tervigon cheaper and make summon cost points.

Tervigon one dies, lose 40 points of models, repeat.

Again, the tervigon KILLED termagaunts within synapse range even if they weren't the ones spawned. And if the termagaunts weren't in synapse range there was a significant chance you lost control of them and they hid in the nearest terrain feature negating their shooting to get there.

They were not a problem.

Hey guys, check out the topic, it isn't "should stuff be free?"
Sorry, not many mods arond on the weekend.

Go make a general thread

With combi weapons now being able to shoot the special weapon more than once, I'm curious to see the rules for the kombi skorcha. If we can now give our nobz heavy flamers that sounds pretty awesome, but I bet it would cost a lot of points.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

 pizzaguardian wrote:

shadowfinder wrote:

 pizzaguardian wrote:
Tervigons summoning was a bad thing and demon summoning is bad as well.

As an example to the question of "was gaunt summoning or scarab summoning that bad?"

The answer is a simple yes. In order to go any further i would like to see how it was a good thing. (Did people really forget in 5th where tervigons summoned 3x 3d6 models per turn? Anectodal evidence, the only that stopped our tyranid players was their model numbers running out)


Free summoning should have never existed and glad to see them gone. I even hope replacements are costed.

They create nothing but bloat for the game for rules such as how do you place them?, can you directly summon into combat since it is not a movement? .

You can have many many abilities that are fluffy and actually only work when they are answered correctly, which creates even more complex rules. Summoning is one of them and just too much hassle for what it brings to the game.

Tervigon had a 50% chance of never being able to spawn again each time you tried it. Also if you can't handle a 45 point unit of gaunt that die if you just kill the Tervigon something was wrong. and it wasn't the TYRANIDS. Tyranid and Necrons spawning was not a problem. Having unit that can summon other units that then could summon with no real risk was the issue. Not Necrons and Tyranids.

Ok, what did it add to the game than? Can we make the game work without that being free and giving the tervigon a discount?

Also lets go with your math,
*1st turn - 3 tervigons, 135 points of summon. (1 stops)
*2nd turn 2 tervigons 90 points of summon. (1 stops)
*3rd turn 1 tervigon summon 45 points summon (1 stops)

You can even make the math for only 5 batches, that still 200+ points worth of 5 different units. They can act as blockers or obj controllers.


These didn't need to be free and they don't need to be free now. Just make the tervigon cheaper and make summon cost points.

Tervigon one dies, lose 40 points of models, repeat.

Again, the tervigon KILLED termagaunts within synapse range even if they weren't the ones spawned. And if the termagaunts weren't in synapse range there was a significant chance you lost control of them and they hid in the nearest terrain feature negating their shooting to get there.

They were not a problem.

No one said Tervigons/termigants were unfair or overpowered, it's the issue of free units setting a precedent that's the problem. A free unit is okay as long as there's roughly an equal downside, like the tervigon feedback mechanism or losing a wound off of a Tomb Spyder. The issue is then it opens the door for smaller and smaller penalties, and eventually just free stuff with power creep. "Oh, free demons are fair, you have to actually CAST the spell!"....did anyone believe that?

There's other ways to portray the tervigon going forward; either by paying the points ahead of time and using it as a pseudo-transport, or having it provide big buffs to gaunts, or any of a half dozen other options. You don't want to provide a precedent for free models being a thing, that opens a very slippery slope, regardless of how balance the precedent setter is.

So because I don't have access to a computer and am not a total masochist to copy and paste dozens of Q&A stuff on my tablet tomorrow, all of Sunday's stuff will get compiled on Monday if no one else jumps in and takes up the mostly pointless task I've taken up.

Or we could just acknowledge the fact that the mechanic in general is not the issue, the way it was implemented in 7th edition was.

In regards to the pricing for pink horrors and their diminutive counterparts, adding cost to their base price to represent their ability to split creates a much bigger problem. In particular it penalizes those who do not sink hundreds of dollars into the lesser versions to gain said benefit. Making the models part of a points based side board or having to use models generated to refill a unit already purchased allows the person who bought the models the chance to use them in a fun thematic way while not penalizing those who didn't. If you don't want to have your opponent get those free models, kill the blue/brimstone horrors first so there isn't anywhere to go.

If you have a unit of blues to summon or put on the table, then they should be available however they could enter the game. So in that instance they could be summoned onto the table via a spell, or dropped in via the links splitting. Either way they were paid for and should be able to hit the table however it is they are generated.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

Spoiler:

 Carnage43 wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

 pizzaguardian wrote:

shadowfinder wrote:

 pizzaguardian wrote:
Tervigons summoning was a bad thing and demon summoning is bad as well.

As an example to the question of "was gaunt summoning or scarab summoning that bad?"

The answer is a simple yes. In order to go any further i would like to see how it was a good thing. (Did people really forget in 5th where tervigons summoned 3x 3d6 models per turn? Anectodal evidence, the only that stopped our tyranid players was their model numbers running out)


Free summoning should have never existed and glad to see them gone. I even hope replacements are costed.

They create nothing but bloat for the game for rules such as how do you place them?, can you directly summon into combat since it is not a movement? .

You can have many many abilities that are fluffy and actually only work when they are answered correctly, which creates even more complex rules. Summoning is one of them and just too much hassle for what it brings to the game.

Tervigon had a 50% chance of never being able to spawn again each time you tried it. Also if you can't handle a 45 point unit of gaunt that die if you just kill the Tervigon something was wrong. and it wasn't the TYRANIDS. Tyranid and Necrons spawning was not a problem. Having unit that can summon other units that then could summon with no real risk was the issue. Not Necrons and Tyranids.

Ok, what did it add to the game than? Can we make the game work without that being free and giving the tervigon a discount?

Also lets go with your math,
*1st turn - 3 tervigons, 135 points of summon. (1 stops)
*2nd turn 2 tervigons 90 points of summon. (1 stops)
*3rd turn 1 tervigon summon 45 points summon (1 stops)

You can even make the math for only 5 batches, that still 200+ points worth of 5 different units. They can act as blockers or obj controllers.


These didn't need to be free and they don't need to be free now. Just make the tervigon cheaper and make summon cost points.

Tervigon one dies, lose 40 points of models, repeat.

Again, the tervigon KILLED termagaunts within synapse range even if they weren't the ones spawned. And if the termagaunts weren't in synapse range there was a significant chance you lost control of them and they hid in the nearest terrain feature negating their shooting to get there.

They were not a problem.

No one said Tervigons/termigants were unfair or overpowered, it's the issue of free units setting a precedent that's the problem. A free unit is okay as long as there's roughly an equal downside, like the tervigon feedback mechanism or losing a wound off of a Tomb Spyder. The issue is then it opens the door for smaller and smaller penalties, and eventually just free stuff with power creep. "Oh, free demons are fair, you have to actually CAST the spell!"....did anyone believe that?

There's other ways to portray the tervigon going forward; either by paying the points ahead of time and using it as a pseudo-transport, or having it provide big buffs to gaunts, or any of a half dozen other options. You don't want to provide a precedent for free models being a thing, that opens a very slippery slope, regardless of how balance the precedent setter is.

Or we could just acknowledge the fact that the mechanic in general is not the issue, the way it was implemented in 7th edition was.

In regards to the pricing for pink horrors and their diminutive counterparts, adding cost to their base price to represent their ability to split creates a much bigger problem. In particular it penalizes those who do not sink hundreds of dollars into the lesser versions to gain said benefit. Making the models part of a points based side board or having to use models generated to refill a unit already purchased allows the person who bought the models the chance to use them in a fun thematic way while not penalizing those who didn't. If you don't want to have your opponent get those free models, kill the blue/brimstone horrors first so there isn't anywhere to go.

If you have a unit of blues to summon or put on the table, then they should be available however they could enter the game. So in that instance they could be summoned onto the table via a spell, or dropped in via the links splitting. Either way they were paid for and should be able to hit the table however it is they are generated.

Nah #nopoors

Precede this by saying I dont play any summoning / free stuff army or at least no lists that took advantage of it (orks tau sallies, eldar) but I gotta say, I didnt much care for the free model mechanic. I thought it was a cool idea but mainly only for daemons and tyranids. Fluffy for both... HOWEVER with daemons, it was just out of hand... being able to basically summon any battlefield role and to be able to summon more summoners... and those summoners undergo mitosis.... i mean c'mon.

Nids... it was a piain in the butt. And I thought the 3d6 mechanic was ok... as the liklihood of doubles was 42% or 44%. So we're talking 30-40 free gaunts. Thats a lot... but understandable in the context of the universe. Both summoning and hatching could be nerfed.... they did so...

They did it with a hatchet rather than a scalpel, but its done. There will be pain for everyone likely... except hooefully orks... we've endured enough (2 editions of being pooped on).

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
Hey guys, check out the topic, it isn't "should stuff be free?"
Sorry, not many mods arond on the weekend.

Go make a general thread

Stop pretending to be a mod when people are discussing the rumours in the rumour thread

This isn't "should units be free", they aren't. That isn't "discussing a rumour". It is off topic, and as a user (not a mod), I shouldn't have to sift through pages of "I think it should be free because of X reason". If mods were around on weekends, they would probably tell you as such, and as a user I got frustrated enough to point it out. If you want to discuss why you want things to be free, go make a new thread.

Edit: I am not talking about discussion if you like the news or not, just the off topic part

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
With combi weapons now being able to shoot the special weapon more than once, I'm curious to see the rules for the kombi skorcha. If we can now give our nobz heavy flamers that sounds pretty awesome, but I bet it would cost a lot of points.

This will be AWESOME... no invuln save mechanic. Good armor. Multiple wounds. D6 hits....oh boy.

Rippy made the thread and is being good enough to maintain it. It's not a lot to ask to not have a go at him.

Especially since he made it after the last one got closed due to the topic not really existing in any of the discussion for several pages.

He's just worried this one will be closed too.

I thought that "should stuff be free" was on topic, but if it's causing too much digression then I'll make my own thread.

"Stuff won't be free: impact of" would be. As we know stuff *won't* be free, protesting it is OT fo sho.

New Tau toys incoming so it seems, clever little buggers that they are.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/725747.page#9361171

Here it is

 Quarterdime wrote:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/725747.page#9361171

Here it is

Thanks Quarterdime!

In the Damocles article, they refer to the Tau as "the T'au" every time. T'au is their homeworld.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
In the Damocles article, they refer to the Tau as "the T'au" every time. T'au is their homeworld.

Possible renaming for copyright purposes? Or maybe a typo. Might be changed when 8th edition comes out, as factions were renamed with AoS.

Could be the T'au faction with the Tau, kroot, and vespid being keywords within it.

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
Hey guys, check out the topic, it isn't "should stuff be free?"
Sorry, not many mods arond on the weekend.

Go make a general thread

Stop pretending to be a mod when people are discussing the rumours in the rumour thread

It's his thread. You are just a guest in it, remember.

Since GW Stated that Evers faction will have a viable psychic phase, maybe this is how Tau get theirs?

Having started the previous topic on this matter, I read some pages where people complained about lack of 1st page updates, and I even received a pm from a user 'demanding' I update the first page (who didn't even take care to reply to my pm). In a thread that grows exponentially eventually sifting through the pages to catch new info from users was frustrating to say the least. The last four pages had content update from one user and the rest was discussing summoning! So if you're enjoying discussing a tangent of a rumour or info regarding the new edition it could perfectly well be done in a new thread as some users had the attention of creating. I know this is a free forum but that is no excuse to be, or come off as, a complete tool.

/rant

So, besides the Farsight enclaves we now may have another splinter of the faction? Also it seems a bit inconsequential, a 'sphere expansion' or whatever goes missing and they just launch another? I mean, what's stopping them from launchng multiple expansions as they apparently have the resources for that?
As for the 4th, I dont really believe in Chaos Tau but now they can show up in any place. A trip to Baal maybe?

Aeri wrote:
Since GW Stated that Evers faction will have a viable psychic phase, maybe this is how Tau get theirs?

I think they clarified on Facebook afterwards that Tau (and Necron and Dark Elder) won't have Psykers still.

 ImAGeek wrote:

Aeri wrote:
Since GW Stated that Evers faction will have a viable psychic phase, maybe this is how Tau get theirs?

I think they clarified on Facebook afterwards that Tau (and Necron and Dark Elder) won't have Psykers still.

Yes, I believe they more meant to say "Every faction that has psykers, will have a viable psychic phase"

I assumed the disappeared Tau Expansion is to give a fluff reason for why Tau are fighting things on the other side of the Rift, since there would be no way across it for them otherwise.