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 ClockworkZion wrote:

Probably because they're not codexes or the core rules books but are campaign books.

Them giving any kind of voucher is still a huge step forward from the GW of the past. Used to be they sold theold stuff at fll price ntil he last seond and if you didn't know the new editon was coming tough luck.

I totally agree. The voucher system is great, and I'm glad they're doing anything to help people out. People that bought the books for the rules and tourney play are pretty much dunked by this, though.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/14/new-warhammer-40000-stratagems-may14gw-homepage-post-4/

Stratagems up.

 Thud wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/14/new-warhammer-40000-stratagems-may14gw-homepage-post-4/

Stratagems up.

Interesting!

What are your thoughts on them?

I'm wondering if Armored Breakthrough lists will still be battleforged. I guess they could just do a force org that needs 1 HQ 2 HS. With chronic that would let you do ultramarines tank lists as well.

 eauxlune wrote:
Strategems are next!

Just a heads up to anyone: Apparently, the Gathering Storm books are NOT included in their voucher program.

Kind of disingenuous...

People should have known the gathering storm was a prelude to an all new edition. Pretty much everyone knew that except those that stick their heads in the sand. Those books are merely for reading enjoyment.

Can't wait to see the faction specific stratagems!

I think it is a really good idea and helps maintain the health of the game/meta. Giving a reward to people that take variety over min maxing and spamming is always a plus.

The true test however will be when they start releasing army books and giving unique command traits. This then becomes much harder to balance as opposed to everyone getting the same ones upon release.

So while I am happy about the initial introduction of strategums, I am cautiously optimistic for where they head when they start becoming unique to factions.

Really liking the look of Strategems (and arguably the first mechanic we've seen that has no equivelant in AoS), will be very interesting to see the full array of Strategems each army has.

Summary:
-current Battle Forged armies will stay Battle Forged
-Battle forged armies get 3 command points (I'm guessing this is from the FOC we saw a couple weeks ago that gives 3 since a Battle Forged FOC fits in it)
-some characters (like Bjorn) can give you extra command points just by being in your army
-generic options:
-you can only spend Command Points once per hase, so no buying rerolls multiple times per the fight sub phase for example.

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
I'm wondering if Armored Breakthrough lists will still be battleforged. I guess they could just do a force org that needs 1 HQ 2 HS. With chronic that would let you do ultramarines tank lists as well.

Only way to know for sure is when we finally see the full compliment of FOC's they provide for Battleforged armies.

 Alpharius wrote:

 Thud wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/14/new-warhammer-40000-stratagems-may14gw-homepage-post-4/

Stratagems up.

Interesting!

What are your thoughts on them?

Depending on what the army specific ones are, it seems like you might be able to put some brute force behind your tactics.

Like Orks, for instance. They mentioned ignoring a punishing morale test, but if there's a specific Ork one to run and charge as well, you might be able to get high degrees of certainty with one key unit, and then plan around that.

v0iddrgn wrote:
Can't wait to see the faction specific stratagems!

Those likely won't be seen until the new edition drops.

 Red Corsair wrote:
I think it is a really good idea and helps maintain the health of the game/meta. Giving a reward to people that take variety over min maxing and spamming is always a plus.

The true test however will be when they start releasing army books and giving unique command traits. This then becomes much harder to balance as opposed to everyone getting the same ones upon release.

So while I am happy about the initial introduction of strategums, I am cautiously optimistic for where they head when they start becoming unique to factions.

I think it was said in the original Q&A stream that each faction will get unique Strategems at launch, but the varying cost in Command Points means there is at least a balancing mechanic availbale that can be adjusted.

Something I would like to be able to field would be a 100% Armored Taskforce for my Blood Angels effectively
Tanks and Aircraft with some transports.
EDIT: Would also like to be able to field Stormtalons and the like...

 ClockworkZion wrote:

-Battle forged armies get 3 command points (I'm guessing this is from the FOC we saw a couple weeks ago that gives 3 since a Battle Forged FOC fits in it)

From the way they wrote that, and the fact that each FOC shown has it's CP listed as +3 or +9 suggests that you get 3 CP automatically for having a Battle Forged army and the specific FOC used plus any special characters give extra CP on top of that.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Summary:
-current Battle Forged armies will stay Battle Forged
-Battle forged armies get 3 command points (I'm guessing this is from the FOC we saw a couple weeks ago that gives 3 since a Battle Forged FOC fits in it)
-some characters (like Bjorn) can give you extra command points just by being in your army
-generic options:
-you can only spend Command Points once per hase, so no buying rerolls multiple times per the fight sub phase for example.

Actually you can spend command points multiple times per phase, just not on the same stratagem.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Summary:
-you can only spend Command Points once per hase, so no buying rerolls multiple times per the fight sub phase for example.

Correction: You cannot use the same strategem more than once in the same phase, but otherwise you can potentially use up all of the CPs on different statagems in a single phase.

EDIT:

Neronoxx wrote:
Something I would like to be able to field would be a 100% Armored Taskforce for my Blood Angels effectively
Tanks and Aircraft with some transports.
EDIT: Would also like to be able to field Stormtalons and the like...

I think the idea is that you can field this, but you won't be battle-forged and you won't get command points which are used for bidding for first turn and for stratagems, putting you at a disadvantage.

What would be really interesting for some factions, would be if you could use command points to get summon points. Like 40 points per command point spent.

Well this is somewhat unexpected - I can't wait to see the specific ones.

I even really like the sound of the narrative stratagems. It entices me to play that mode more than I have since I was a kid.

The true test will be if the stratagems breach the power gap that inevitably will be found and exploited.

It's all well and good taking a AM or even a space marine infantry company and going to town with one of the larger and more fluffy/balanced FOC charts, but if triple riptide and triple ghost keels are still going to rain supreme without strategems then they don't really do the job they are supposed to do.

Those 3 stratagems for example aren't THAT powerful to be honest. What's the point in being able to re-roll one dice when you need to re-roll a lot more due to uber units raining down ridiculous fire power.

 Imateria wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

-Battle forged armies get 3 command points (I'm guessing this is from the FOC we saw a couple weeks ago that gives 3 since a Battle Forged FOC fits in it)

From the way they wrote that, and the fact that each FOC shown has it's CP listed as +3 or +9 suggests that you get 3 CP automatically for having a Battle Forged army and the specific FOC used plus any special characters give extra CP on top of that.

Looks like it is 3 for Battle Forged Army plus Command Benefits from your Detachments, plus those for specific characters.

Remember, the three revealed detachments are Patrol (0 Command Points), Battalion (+3 Command Points), and Brigade (+9 Command Points). This puts a Command Point premium on bringing more balanced list of less factions rather than just going for a hodgepodge of units from a number of factions. One can speculate that the more specialized detachments that are made up of just Elites, Fast Attack, Heavy Support or Lords of War will award less Command Points then these generalist detachments.

Since there will be only strategems in the codizes for the various factions ...yeah well.

Those who won´t get a codex soon, will have no faction specific ones.

Counter defensive seems kinda wimpy. Not -worthless-, but wimpy.

Honestly without bringing faction specific abilities into account I'd probably save all my points for the rerolls. Kairos is a big deal for a reason after all.

 Coyote81 wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:
Something I would like to be able to field would be a 100% Armored Taskforce for my Blood Angels effectively
Tanks and Aircraft with some transports.
EDIT: Would also like to be able to field Stormtalons and the like...

I think the idea is that you can field this, but you won't be battle-forged and you won't get command points which are used for bidding for first turn and for stratagems, putting you at a disadvantage.

Wait, when did they mention bidding for first turn?

I wonder if abilities like banshees' "mostly strike first" tie in to these. Maybe they can simply perform a Counter-Offensive without spending CP.

Stratagems are going to be a good way of replacing 7E formation special rules, while still keeping a measure of control over them. So for example, Knights could replicate Adamantine Lance by having a stratagem allowing them to re-roll all saving throws for a phase, but at the cost of several command points.

This has two pretty nice advantages. First everything will behave consistently, as stratagems will apply regardless of which detachment a given unit is in. Secondly, they're a limited resource and it will be tough to both bring a lot of command dice while min/maxing the units that benefit most.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
The true test will be if the stratagems breach the power gap that inevitably will be found and exploited.

It's all well and good taking a AM or even a space marine infantry company and going to town with one of the larger and more fluffy/balanced FOC charts, but if triple riptide and triple ghost keels are still going to rain supreme without strategems then they don't really do the job they are supposed to do.

Those 3 stratagems for example aren't THAT powerful to be honest. What's the point in being able to re-roll one dice when you need to re-roll a lot more due to uber units raining down ridiculous fire power.

Rerolling a singe dice is less important for shooting armies, but for assault armies you can reroll charge distances.
You can also reroll the d6 hits for large blasts. You can reroll the wound or damage of a lascannon.

There are many single rolls with a lot of influence on the game.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
The true test will be if the stratagems breach the power gap that inevitably will be found and exploited.

It's all well and good taking a AM or even a space marine infantry company and going to town with one of the larger and more fluffy/balanced FOC charts, but if triple riptide and triple ghost keels are still going to rain supreme without strategems then they don't really do the job they are supposed to do.

Those 3 stratagems for example aren't THAT powerful to be honest. What's the point in being able to re-roll one dice when you need to re-roll a lot more due to uber units raining down ridiculous fire power.

It's in the evaluation of situations that make them more or less powerful. Proper play and counterplay will make many decisions more thoughtful.

I'm sure there will be "better" ones, but the points and the accessibility will be a factor.

The stratagem system looks like gold to me. The ones we've seen so far look to be low end of the scale bonuses. Perhaps the top end ones will be orbital bombardments or mass redeployment or something. With these, armies made up of basic but well organised troops might finally be able to take out the high powered cheese floating around these days.