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Actually your more troop heavy option also required several of the other slots as well. Basically they keep you from min maxing by making you buy more of everything in order to have the option of larger pools of options.

I kind of like it honestly. If you want that many tanks your army expects you to have the support elements needed to protect them!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyran wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Sturmgeschutz wrote:

 RandyMcStab wrote:
Lost re roill for twin linked? Having 2 guns instead is flat out better you know. Think of all those twin linked SM systems on Land Raiders, Preds, Talons, Razors etc, thats a big buff. Dreads can die to 2 meltas but they can't die from one now.

But now Dred may die from lasguns and autopistols! I never use a LR, Predators and Razors. And even this will not make me play them. I like dreadnoughts and tacticool guys in 3+.

Have you tried killing a Riptide in the current edition with Boltguns?
Because killing a Dreadnoguht boltguns or lasguns is going to be almost as difficult.

Depends.

Currently both need 180 hits to kill a Riptide, 270 if it has FNP.

A lasgun will need 144 hits to kill a Dreadnought, while a bolter will need half of that, 72 hits.

Essentially, a Dreadnought will be as durable as a the current Carnifex is to bolters, and two times more durable against lasguns.

Dread has double the wounds of a carnifex, so twice the durability against boltguns.

Ok so Cp, does Creed generate 3CP every turn or what? TACTICAL GENIUS!!!

Dreadnought has 8 wounds, Toughness 7, and a 3+ save.

A Boltgun is Strength 4, Damage 1, and AP 0

Wounding on 5+, so 3 hits to get a wound, and every 3 wounds should cause a failed armour save. So working backwards from the wounds we have 8 x 3 = 24. 24 x 3 = 72 However that is in a vacuum, where the Dreadnought isn't attacking back, but rather standing there getting shot.

It is still a waste to shoot the Dreadnought with that level of small arms fire, they are their to engage enemy infantry and support the large models of their force. Needing 72 hits is a lot of marines 118 at long range.

 kestral wrote:
My take on the weekend's news: Command points good. You can mitigate key weaknesses with them or a stroke of bad luck, but nothing game breaking. Using them to balance against unfluffy allies and such crap seems great.

Detachments.... huh. Mostly they just seem to require you to spend a certain amount of your points on troops. Unless the units are more standardized in size - so you can't minimize with 50 point troops las grunts and maximize with 500 point heavy support tank squadron, they are kind of pointless.

Unless we see a return to only troops being able to hold objectives and more objective/scenario focused win conditions (which I believe has been a thing in AOS) in which case you'll want good sized troops units in order to win games.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 kestral wrote:
My take on the weekend's news: Command points good. You can mitigate key weaknesses with them or a stroke of bad luck, but nothing game breaking. Using them to balance against unfluffy allies and such crap seems great.

Detachments.... huh. Mostly they just seem to require you to spend a certain amount of your points on troops. Unless the units are more standardized in size - so you can't minimize with 50 point troops las grunts and maximize with 500 point heavy support tank squadron, they are kind of pointless.

Unless we see a return to only troops being able to hold objectives and more objective/scenario focused win conditions (which I believe has been a thing in AOS) in which case you'll want good sized troops units in order to win games.

Yea, AoS doesn't much care, but AoS also doesn't have 'battlefield roles'.

Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea, AoS doesn't much care, but AoS also doesn't have 'battlefield roles'.

Leader, Battleline, Artillery and Behemoths are the AoS equivalents of 'Battlefield Roles' (see page 107 of the General's Handbook).

I think the thing I am liking about the Command Points is that it gives a really solid base to add in army flavour, army list building considerations AND in game resource management.

I can see how with a few additions it could serve both to make for interesting narrative play options (have a kill team game running beside a big game where the kill team controlling an objective provides CP for use on the big board. Reinforcements are available at a CP cost, and moving up the board gives CPs to represent HQ supporting a breakthrough) but also to differentiate armies and or characters (Dark Eldar have a unique way to spend CPs, Ahriman allows CP to spent in one way while Kharn gives you something different).

Overall then my current response is that this is a really good base to build on. Simple enough that it should be easy to use at a basic level, enough flexibility to allow players to go mad with what they do with it.

 Ghaz wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea, AoS doesn't much care, but AoS also doesn't have 'battlefield roles'.

Leader, Battleline, Artillery and Behemoths are the AoS equivalents of 'Battlefield Roles' (see page 107 of the General's Handbook).

Yes, but they make no real distinction on them other than list selection.

I take that back. They do have the hero point capture mission, but that's about it.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea, AoS doesn't much care, but AoS also doesn't have 'battlefield roles'.

Leader, Battleline, Artillery and Behemoths are the AoS equivalents of 'Battlefield Roles' (see page 107 of the General's Handbook).

Yes, but they make no real distinction on them other than list selection.

I take that back. They do have the hero point capture mission, but that's about it.

Or the scenarios like 'Three Places of Power', where at the end of each of your turns you score victory points for each place of power controlled by one of your HEROES. Overall, that's about all Battlefield Roles were used for in 40K as well.

I really like strategems. I hope there is some more choice to them in the main rules is all. If they do unique ones for factions it will be harder to balance.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Ok so Cp, does Creed generate 3CP every turn or what? TACTICAL GENIUS!!!

I thought that would have been an Lion El'Johnson rule. Maybe 1 CP every turn since nobody that I know of can do it. After all the Lion is a Primarch. But great idea non the less. But I thought I read somewhere that CPs can't be regenerated and once they are gone, they are gone. That true?

 Gamgee wrote:
I really like strategems. I hope there is some more choice to them in the main rules is all. If they do unique ones for factions it will be harder to balance.

I don't think it will be bad.

Reroll a one dice action : 1 CP
Interrupt an action or reroll a 2 dice action: 2CP
Succeed at a 2 dice action for one unit : 3 CP
Reroll a 2 dice action for up to 3 units: 4 CP
Succeed at a 2 dice action for up to 3 units: 6 CP

Lots can fall under those umbrellas.

Davor wrote:
I thought that would have been an Lion El'Johnson rule.

Lion isn't a tactical genius is he?

He's no slouch. Arguably the best battlefield commander outside of Horus.

No one is a better tactical savant than Commander Dante. He has literally seen just about everything.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Ok so Cp, does Creed generate 3CP every turn or what? TACTICAL GENIUS!!!

He's probably free to generate as many CPs as he wants in Trazyn's museum. Gone, but never forgotten

Edit: I just hope that there aren't too many loopholes or exceptions that will let minmax, decidedly non-fluffy armies get too many CPs. Because then the point of having stratagems to reward the thematic armies that bring a little bit of everything would be utterly moot.

 KommissarKiln wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Ok so Cp, does Creed generate 3CP every turn or what? TACTICAL GENIUS!!!

He's probably free to generate as many CPs as he wants in Trazyn's museum. Gone, but never forgotten

Edit: I just hope that there aren't too many loopholes or exceptions that will let minmax, decidedly non-fluffy armies get too many CPs. Because then the point of having stratagems to reward the thematic armies that bring a little bit of everything would be utterly moot.

If there are loop holes that people exploit, with a rule set that can easily be updated, it is in their best interest to not break them.

Finding a strong list that is working as intended will give tournament players (and general cheesebeards) a list that works better for longer potentially, as exploits will be patched out once a year.

No one knows how Techmarines, Meks and their equivalents would do to help those poor dreadnaughts out. Something to think about.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
No one is a better tactical savant than Commander Dante. He has literally seen just about everything.

What about the combined knowledge of billions of engagements by an entire race compressed into one being?

My man the Swarmlord.

No doubt he will give a decent amount of CP (2-3 maybe). Perhaps certain HQ that you designate as your general could actually add Strategems for you to use.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Actually your more troop heavy option also required several of the other slots as well. Basically they keep you from min maxing by making you buy more of everything in order to have the option of larger pools of options.

I kind of like it honestly. If you want that many tanks your army expects you to have the support elements needed to protect them!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyran wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Sturmgeschutz wrote:

 RandyMcStab wrote:
Lost re roill for twin linked? Having 2 guns instead is flat out better you know. Think of all those twin linked SM systems on Land Raiders, Preds, Talons, Razors etc, thats a big buff. Dreads can die to 2 meltas but they can't die from one now.

But now Dred may die from lasguns and autopistols! I never use a LR, Predators and Razors. And even this will not make me play them. I like dreadnoughts and tacticool guys in 3+.

Have you tried killing a Riptide in the current edition with Boltguns?
Because killing a Dreadnoguht boltguns or lasguns is going to be almost as difficult.

Depends.

Currently both need 180 hits to kill a Riptide, 270 if it has FNP.

A lasgun will need 144 hits to kill a Dreadnought, while a bolter will need half of that, 72 hits.

Essentially, a Dreadnought will be as durable as a the current Carnifex is to bolters, and two times more durable against lasguns.

Dread has double the wounds of a carnifex, so twice the durability against boltguns.

Boltguns wound on a 5+, which is twice the wounds inflicted.

 Carnikang wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
No one is a better tactical savant than Commander Dante. He has literally seen just about everything.

What about the combined knowledge of billions of engagements by an entire race compressed into one being?

My man the Swarmlord.

No doubt he will give a decent amount of CP (2-3 maybe). Perhaps certain HQ that you designate as your general could actually add Strategems for you to use.

If they are giving the oldest living space marine 1, I imagine that will be the norm.

The Command Point systems seems pretty straight forward. I like the idea of an in-game resource that you have to use tactically.

That said, they're called Strategems, no? So perhaps we can see some that are more, y'know, strategic.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
No one is a better tactical savant than Commander Dante. He has literally seen just about everything.

That's even moreso the case for Bjorn who literally is the oldest remaining (non primarch) loyalist SM and an accomplished tactician as well as a former wolf lord. So I wouldn't expect Dante (or everyone else that isn't Girlyman or another primarch) to hand out more CPs (so 1 per turn).

Also, *cough*, Creed (who still has an available model so he will be getting rules) ;-).

Being the oldest marine... ehm... did that even count as alive? Don't make you a ultra tactician.

Besides, Bjorn is a little senile after all these years, he prefers to be in the front ripping the emperor enemies, don't thinking in tactics and all of that. He is a good wolf, and as a wolf he obeys his alpha, Russ.

Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka is an amazing tactical genius who gives +2d3 command points, but if you roll doubles consult the following chart:
1,1: Your opponent gets to smash your entire army. You are never allowed to play again.
2,2: Your opponent gets to punch you right in the face 1d6 times, and Ghazghkull is removed from play.
3,3: Your opponent gains control of Ghazghkull and his four Command Points.
4,4: You must play the game standing on one foot. If both your feet touch the ground at the same time you immediately forfeit.
5,5: You get all the command points, and you can use the same Stratagem more than once a turn, but Stratagems can only be used on units of Grots.
6,6: You win the game and also a new car!

 Galas wrote:
Being the oldest marine... ehm... did that even count as alive? Don't make you a ultra tactician.

Besides, Bjorn is a little senile after all these years, he prefers to be in the front ripping the emperor enemies, don't thinking in tactics and all of that. He is a good wolf, and as a wolf he obeys his alpha, Russ.

The Article GW Literally Just Published wrote:Some units are such capable and experienced commanders that they give you additional Command Points just by including them. Bjorn the Fell-Handed, for example, the oldest living(ish) loyalist Space Marine, gets you an extra one just for showing up!

Tyran wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Actually your more troop heavy option also required several of the other slots as well. Basically they keep you from min maxing by making you buy more of everything in order to have the option of larger pools of options.

I kind of like it honestly. If you want that many tanks your army expects you to have the support elements needed to protect them!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyran wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Sturmgeschutz wrote:

 RandyMcStab wrote:
Lost re roill for twin linked? Having 2 guns instead is flat out better you know. Think of all those twin linked SM systems on Land Raiders, Preds, Talons, Razors etc, thats a big buff. Dreads can die to 2 meltas but they can't die from one now.

But now Dred may die from lasguns and autopistols! I never use a LR, Predators and Razors. And even this will not make me play them. I like dreadnoughts and tacticool guys in 3+.

Have you tried killing a Riptide in the current edition with Boltguns?
Because killing a Dreadnoguht boltguns or lasguns is going to be almost as difficult.

Depends.

Currently both need 180 hits to kill a Riptide, 270 if it has FNP.

A lasgun will need 144 hits to kill a Dreadnought, while a bolter will need half of that, 72 hits.

Essentially, a Dreadnought will be as durable as a the current Carnifex is to bolters, and two times more durable against lasguns.

Dread has double the wounds of a carnifex, so twice the durability against boltguns.

Boltguns wound on a 5+, which is twice the wounds inflicted.

Phone auto corrected autoguns, my bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Considering how often I was able to get behind dreads and kill them with bolt guns last eddition I still feel it is an improvement.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka is an amazing tactical genius who gives +2d3 command points, but if you roll doubles consult the following chart:
1,1: Your opponent gets to smash your entire army. You are never allowed to play again.
2,2: Your opponent gets to punch you right in the face 1d6 times, and Ghazghkull is removed from play.
3,3: Your opponent gains control of Ghazghkull and his four Command Points.
4,4: You must play the game standing on one foot. If both your feet touch the ground at the same time you immediately forfeit.
5,5: You get all the command points, and you can use the same Stratagem more than once a turn, but Stratagems can only be used on units of Grots.
6,6: You win the game and also a new car!

If 8th were a reboot like AoS you can bet that something like that would be the official rules for the model

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Being the oldest marine... ehm... did that even count as alive? Don't make you a ultra tactician.

Besides, Bjorn is a little senile after all these years, he prefers to be in the front ripping the emperor enemies, don't thinking in tactics and all of that. He is a good wolf, and as a wolf he obeys his alpha, Russ.

The Article GW Literally Just Published wrote:Some units are such capable and experienced commanders that they give you additional Command Points just by including them. Bjorn the Fell-Handed, for example, the oldest living(ish) loyalist Space Marine, gets you an extra one just for showing up!

Sorry, I was just trying to be funny. I have failed to my task.

I'll commit now the old T'au tradition of seppukku to clean the dishonour I have brought to my Sept.

I thought Tau committed sudoku...

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Davor wrote:
I thought that would have been an Lion El'Johnson rule.

Lion isn't a tactical genius is he?

Perhaps not, but he's definitely not trapped in a Necron pokeball.