Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Megaknob wrote:
All of the spacemarine players crying about being given new models to collect (I really don't like space marines but these ones are amazing) and complaing about fluff problems, while all of the ork players are sitting here sweating about weather or not we will actually be able to play a game and win, comical.

Honestly if there's any models that's ever made me want to start marines it's these guys I just hope to God people don't flock to them because exno sales will drop and it will give GW no incentive to make any new models for xeno players.

Ask your self truthfully would you be as happy collecting and playing if all you ever fought was other spacemarines painted a different colour?

Actually, I expect those marines to sell tons, so GW has spare money to jump and make more risky choices that aren't gonna be so popular. As Azrael13 said in other post, when a company has spare money, they can try to innovate.

We have Genestealer Cults for that reason, for example.
If GW began to sink again, then we'll see the real Space Marine spam.

And actually, we have see that. 40K primarchs were the panic button of GW, and it appears that they have pressed that 1-2 years ago. So I just wish them to make more money, to be free to give me more xenos and innovative armies and factions.

Exhibit A: Dire Avengers
Exhibit B: Guardians

While both of these models appear to be armed with shuriken catapults, one of them has a better gun. Now Marine players has Dire Avengers and Guardians also.

Or you could put it this way: NuMarines have the size and stats that people think Marines should have from the fluff. NuMarines are actually real or fluff Marines. Original Flavour Marines are just glorified Stormtroopers.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Tyel wrote:

New marines don't really bother me (don't play marines, probably never will) but I do think their fluff and general feel is pretty bad. Its true that Space Marines are weapons and weapons become obsolete. At the same time though it seems kind of... broken to just say "oh sorry, you all suck now". We now have the new Intercessors which will probably be joined by new assault/devastator equivalents.

I don't buy for one second that tactical marines will be better in certain situations. This never happens. You will take one or you will take the other based on probabilities and points.

You lose three Primaris Marines out of a squad of 5.
You roll a 6 for your Morale test.

You've now lost another Primaris Marine.

Morale, like Battleshock, doesn't cause Wounds or whatever. It just removes models.

Sure. They will be a bit more vulnerable to a combination of multiple-wound weapons and battleshock. I guess if they are good everyone will start packing d3 damage dealing weapons (plasma?) which might not be so good against regular tacticals (although if they have a good rend they might still be desirable).
Against regular arms though if you lost 3 Primaris you would have lost 6 tacticals. In which case the 6 on your Morale test would kill of a further 4 which probably wipes the squad.
To which you might say "when was the last time you saw a ten man tactical squad" but still.

We don't have enough information to know but I feel the meta will fall out one way or the other. It almost always does.

Tyel wrote:

We don't have enough information to know but I feel the meta will fall out one way or the other. It almost always does.

Well, I mean, you never saw Paladins AND GK Terminators at the same time on the board, but I would see a lot of one or the other (granted, the meta was definitely with Paladins).

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


...But to me, I think they have made boltguns weaker as a deliberate choice, not a game design choice, but a choice so that they can spring these new marines on us and force people to pay more money for standard issue equipment they should be getting anyway.

Actually, I don't think this is the case. Think about the way the new system is set up. A melta is -4 (AP1), A Lascannon is -3 (AP2), Inferno Boltgun is -2 (AP3) a Heavy Bolter is -1 (AP4), and a bolter is 0 because you've run out of space to modify a lesser weapon penetration power than what was previously AP4.

Everyone seems to have read the comment about one Markerlight hit allowing rerolls of "1"s and assumes that all Markerlights do now. I read it as that's what one hit does. I would assume more hits allowing you to reroll higher misses. 2 hits reroll 1s and 2s, 3 hits reroll 1s, 2s, and 3s, etc. You may even get to increase rend value if you managed to get enough hits. Just pointing out that, once again, we only have a portion of the rules, so I wouldn't write your new anti-Tau (T'au?) strategy in ink just yet.

 Brother Xeones wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


...But to me, I think they have made boltguns weaker as a deliberate choice, not a game design choice, but a choice so that they can spring these new marines on us and force people to pay more money for standard issue equipment they should be getting anyway.

Actually, I don't think this is the case. Think about the way the new system is set up. A melta is -4 (AP1), A Lascannon is -3 (AP2), Inferno Boltgun is -2 (AP3) a Heavy Bolter is -1 (AP4), and a bolter is 0 because you've run out of space to modify a lesser weapon penetration power than what was previously AP4.

I'd argue this was a deliberate design choice to make room for weaker armour save based assault armies (Orks, Nids) in a game that is largely dependant on shooting.

Plus a -4 doesn't negate a 2+ armour save completely, so that was likely another factor.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Brother Xeones wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


...But to me, I think they have made boltguns weaker as a deliberate choice, not a game design choice, but a choice so that they can spring these new marines on us and force people to pay more money for standard issue equipment they should be getting anyway.

Actually, I don't think this is the case. Think about the way the new system is set up. A melta is -4 (AP1), A Lascannon is -3 (AP2), Inferno Boltgun is -2 (AP3) a Heavy Bolter is -1 (AP4), and a bolter is 0 because you've run out of space to modify a lesser weapon penetration power than what was previously AP4.

I'd argue this was a deliberate design choice to make room for weaker armour save based assault armies (Orks, Nids) in a game that is largely dependant on shooting.

Plus a -4 doesn't negate a 2+ armour save completely, so that was likely another factor.

I agree with that. I just can't fathom the hilarity of believing that GW has re-engineered the entire AP system of "New 40k" just to screw over bolters and force everyone to buy NuMarines.

Never pleasing some folk. When the first couple of faction focus articles came out, people cried and complained that it was all just substance free market speech from an over-eager faction fluffer. They then put in a few key bits of info, plus a complete unit profile and "It's only a drone waaaah".

I like the NuMarines a lot. I think as models they look great and I think that it shows respect from GW towards people who have been collecting marines, that they aren't just a flat-out replacement. It may be the case that these will gradually phase out the older marines, but I think they are doing it in an admirable fashion.

 EnTyme wrote:
Everyone seems to have read the comment about one Markerlight hit allowing rerolls of "1"s and assumes that all Markerlights do now. I read it as that's what one hit does. I would assume more hits allowing you to reroll higher misses. 2 hits reroll 1s and 2s, 3 hits reroll 1s, 2s, and 3s, etc. You may even get to increase rend value if you managed to get enough hits. Just pointing out that, once again, we only have a portion of the rules, so I wouldn't write your new anti-Tau (T'au?) strategy in ink just yet.

I had the same thought - I like the pondering on rend being added. That could be interesting.

Screw over bolters? Some armies are finally getting to actually use their armor saves for the first time ever and all we're thinking about is how it hurts the poor space marines Q_Q

And they shall know no hurt feelings.

 Don Savik wrote:
Screw over bolters? Some armies are finally getting to actually use their armor saves for the first time ever and all we're thinking about is how it hurts the poor space marines Q_Q

And they shall know no hurt feelings.

If you were out in the open and stupid yeah Bolters weren't deadly. Then they got worse with how easy it is to obtain cover.

Not sure if this has been posted:



Plasma.

NU-Marines kinda invalidate normal marines in every way. I expect an AoS situation were all future releases will be NU-Marine and the current range will be phased out over the next couple of years. Just look at what happened to the fantasy line, where loads of kits have gone out of production to make way for stormcasts.

After all these years space marine are becoming a legacy range. It's the end of an era.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
As a general response to replies to my earlier post, I will say this:

Space Marines are supposed to be humanity's finest. Genetics, equipment, training etc etc

And yet, GW seems to think that an average joe with a flashlight and some MDF armour, can survive a boltgun shot from a Space Marine...

By that logic, a middle aged, overweight guy like me, should be able to go toe to toe with a bad ass from Delta Force, SAS, Spetnaz, insert your special forces of choice here...

And here we are, with a new unit and a new boltgun that basic space marines should be getting anyway. If I buy a new car, I don't expect to have to turn up with a steering wheel and spark plugs.

I'm 400 miles away from GW HQ, but I can smell the horsegak from up here in the Scottish Highlands!

This here is why focusing too much on the fluff can be detrimental to your and the people around you's mental health. I don't give one goddam about who's weapons can kill who or what fat people can run where or whatever bullgak FAAC players keep pulling out to impose OUR reality's rules on a setting where giant daemons can explode out of a guy's head because he thunk too hard.

The models are cool and the rules seem fine. If they perform well on the tabletop('oh but they'll be powercreeped to make you buy them!' GW doesn't know how to play warhammer well enough to do that on purpose.) I could give a fat gak what the background is and I'm better off for it.

I'll say this to you and anybody else who is reading this post: they are nice models. They're smooth and streamlined, and on this point, I agree with you 100%

The design is not the issue for me.

If GW had said, hey, it's 30 years of 40k, here's some celebration Space Marines for you guys, and hopefully, we might make some cash from the sentimental dollar, then fair enough.

But to me, I think they have made boltguns weaker as a deliberate choice, not a game design choice, but a choice so that they can spring these new marines on us and force people to pay more money for standard issue equipment they should be getting anyway.

That's a cynical move straight from the Tom Kirby playbook!

You'll still need your tacticles for hand to hand, unless of course RG thought close combat weapons might be a good idea and had them made for a different unit of Primaris Close Combat Marines.

 Tamereth wrote:
NU-Marines kinda invalidate normal marines in every way. I expect an AoS situation were all future releases will be NU-Marine and the current range will be phased out over the next couple of years. Just look at what happened to the fantasy line, where loads of kits have gone out of production to make way for stormcasts.

After all these years space marine are becoming a legacy range. It's the end of an era.

Is just a change in model-range scale done throug time, not at one go.

Even the new fluff will be irrelevant. When all the old marines die in the future, only the Primaris Space Marines will exist, so basically the situation in the fluff will come again to the same state of Normal Humans and Superhumans.

People will be mad one way or the other, but this way then can still sell all the Space Marines kits.

 Skerr wrote:


You'll still need your tacticles for hand to hand, unless of course RG thought close combat weapons might be a good idea and had them made for a different unit of Primaris Close Combat Marines.

He did I am sure. See the plasma guys above.

It's going to be a choice between taking an army of elite elites not much different than Thousand Sons now or getting more models (and guns) onto the table. Or a mix of both.

 pretre wrote:
Not sure if this has been posted:



Plasma.

I just finished reading the community thing about Intercession Marines and where it mentions they won't have specialist or heavy weapons. I immediately thought of some of the older style army books where you had to take specialist squads for that sort of thing. Fully expect that P.Marines will have the options for those types of weapons but their standard Tac marines will be just that. List fillers that can slowly erode most other standard "grunt" style infantry units. If anything, GW mentioning special vehicles for the P.Marines means they'll at least have some heavier firepower in that vein.

What I am wondering.. since they mentioned that they can be fielded alongside IG.. which, Intercession Marines would basically be side-scaled Ogryn (for functional purposes).. which leaves a question about points cost and equivalency.

Also.. that lower leadership will take some getting used to..

 Galas wrote:


People will be mad one way or the other, but this way then can still sell all the Space Marines kits.

That and they don't feel kicked out the door. Imagine if they discontinued all the old kits right now? It's going to be years and years before the old kits fade out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:
Not sure if this has been posted:



Plasma.

And scopes. So that drum bolter is feasible as well. And I wonder if that plasma is nuplasma.

Sure they invalidate marines, if you dont look at points at all, or know how marines options change.......or how many d3 wound weapons there are in the game(see tau missile pods).....Or how that slot into FOC.......So on and so forth.

New marines are really no different than going from smaller metal marines to slightly larger plastic marines and now we finally reach truescale size marines. They are all the same crap just a small change in stats to justify the new models. And there really is no point to non assault close combat new marines since new marines are likely worst than custodes in close combat.

Odds are new marines will find thier place in the new imperium list along with regular marines and whatever other imperial faction stew you create. But considering new marines are options in basic Astartes armies and there is a huge lack of options for new marines compared to the gw/FW pot luck. I expect the best list to be mostly astartes and a token new marine unit if they aren't overshadowed by centurions or terminators

 Leth wrote:
Sure they invalidate marines, if you dont look at points at all, or know how marines options change.......or how many d3 wound weapons there are in the game(see tau missile pods).....Or how that slot into FOC.......So on and so forth.

Yea this is why i'm not concerned. I still think eventually they will be 'the marines', because it seems unlikely for GW to make an 'old marine' kit to update them now that they've moved to this scale.

I suppose my only other worry is that will people be so enamored with them that the old marines fade much more quickly on the tabletop? That isn't a real problem - it just makes me a feel a little sad in some odd way.

I love how Chaos Marines got screwed over again with a totally wishy washy no info faction focus, and other factions are getting stats and actual information in theirs.

Rubrics are Thousand Sons, I don't care about them, we got nothing for generic CSM.

Or they listened to what people were asking for in regards to the articles and have started to incorporate more info?

 Leth wrote:
Sure they invalidate marines, if you dont look at points at all, or know how marines options change.......or how many d3 wound weapons there are in the game(see tau missile pods).....Or how that slot into FOC.......So on and so forth.

I agree with this for the most part.

However, I'd like to point out that the amount of D3/D6 damage weapons out there is likely to be about the same as the weapons that previously would have just caused Instant Death. A Lascannon also now has the potential to only do 1 wound to these guys (albeit a small chance) and they'll get to roll for a 6 armour save out in the open too.
Given this, I'd say it's ok to a least assume the NuMarines are noticeably better than 7E Marines given 2 wounds and Rending Bolters.
We also know they are Troops because they have the Troop symbol on their datasheet.

-

Loopstah wrote:
I love how Chaos Marines got screwed over again with a totally wishy washy no info faction focus, and other factions are getting stats and actual information in theirs.

Rubrics are Thousand Sons, I don't care about them, we got nothing for generic CSM.

They've made mention of the Black Legion. Everything in due time.

 Leth wrote:
Sure they invalidate marines, if you dont look at points at all, or know how marines options change.......or how many d3 wound weapons there are in the game(see tau missile pods).....Or how that slot into FOC.......So on and so forth.

Yeah.. and seriously.. Intercessors are LD7 with their Sgt holding a whopping LD8.. That's pretty big. Any sort of thing that targets LD will hurt them, especially with fewer models on the table. EDIT: I see they still have Know No Fear.

Not impressed by new marines looks or rules.

As for the people panicing they somehow invalidate regular marines - you high?
They are tougher and slightly deadlier marines, but with a preset equipment and no options.

If deathwatch, gray knights and custodian, who all practically fall under the category of "better marines" in some form didn't do it, why would those?


Actually, forget invalidating regular marines. I'm not sure this unit is even viable. Depends on its cost. If it costs substantial over regular marines, I wouldn't bother.
They just ain't that good. Look at rubrics to compare what is a powerhouse "special marine". Half the wounds, but still tougher to kill, and deadlier.

 Hollow wrote:
Or they listened to what people were asking for in regards to the articles and have started to incorporate more info?

My gut says this as well, but it's impossible to prove either way. I'm just enjoying everything for what it is regardless.

Loopstah wrote:
I love how Chaos Marines got screwed over again with a totally wishy washy no info faction focus, and other factions are getting stats and actual information in theirs.

Rubrics are Thousand Sons, I don't care about them, we got nothing for generic CSM.

I get the feeling generic csm will just be generic sm

with a lot of splash things like the new nurgle or the new tsons stuff to make an army more interesting.