40k New Edition Summary - 14th June 17: Lord Duncan paints Primaris in Gravis/non-codex SM focus

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**EnTyme**

Lord Kragan wrote:You know, hearing some comments i love how the chat has swung from 8th edition favoring MSU to favoring hordes!

It's kind of like people are getting a better picture of the rules as they get more information and shouldn't jump to conclusion based on the 2% of rules we've been given so far. You know, like you and I have been saying for 50+ pages.

You know, I'm convinced that because of that one guy who begs for a Necron focus after every faction focus, we're going to be the last one.

**kestral**

Well, battleshock appears to be one of those rules that only applies to OTHER PEOPLE, since Ork Ld in 10-20 range make it a moot point, synapse makes it a moot point, small elite units are pretty much off the hook, death guard plague walkers don't take it, etc. Who will be the unlucky few for whom it is really a problem? Small ork units I suppose.

**Hollow**

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

**Anpu42**

I do miss the RT days of 'Hay I just the new box of plastic 'Space Orks'. You want to see how they do against your box of plastic 'Space Marines'.

Wile there was a point system it was about who had the coolest models. I even had a walker made from a 1/35 scale Merkava and the Ork player was using Green Army Men Trucks and Jeeps.

This is giving me that feel once more...

**Desubot**

Hollow wrote:
As others have mentioned, it's funny to see the monotonous meta-dorks twist and turn in a desperate attempt to fit 8th edition into their existing pigeon holes. As we don't have all the information yet nobody can say for sure... however; with the play-tested and newly costed simultaneous release of all units this edition, perhaps the tedious terms such as 'tier, spam, no-brainer, MSU, blobs etc' can be retired. I understand why the meta-dorks desperately cling to these monotonous descriptors, as it can give the illusion they actually know what they are talking about.

Gamers will always figure out tiers spam and no brainers

hopefully though since gamers are the ones that are kinda directing balance efforts those things will be a lot closer to the take what you want crowed. no one is going to make a 100% perfect balanced game. but im hoping gap wont be as ridiculous as any of the previous editions.

**Cuz05**

Dudes. Da Jump is not new, you've been able to teleport Orks around for a while. Not scattering does make a big difference to it tho.

Was a bit disappointed by the Faction Focus myself, not seeing any of the uber improvements that have been heavily present in others.
The bubble effects are gonna have pretty small area effect when looking at the whole table and most other things mentioned already existed for Orks in some form, with much the same overall level of effectiveness.
Pretty much the only new thing in this article I do like is the unit size morale effect. That mitigates the disaster Battle Shock would have been. Probably won't stop my Deffkoptas running away from most battles but still...
Extra wound for MANZ is good but I don't have any and they're hellishly expensive

Obviously liking choppas. Unless they're just making up for a dropped attack on ma boyz...

Previous rule articles provide more positivity for me than the FF. Hitting 1st on charges is MASSIVE for Orks. Slightly more durable transports and walkers should be a boon. Combi and twin linked weapons will be nice on certain models.

Everything depends on context of course. Much more to come. Still, I have a nagging feeling that while Orks are gonna get some nice buffs overall, they're maybe not getting as much as others and will remain a lot more fun than they are successful.
I am concerned that I'll have to drop a number of my glorious and characterful HQs now formations are gone...
We. Shall. See.

Oh and P.S. Hope I don't have to wait too long for the Grot Tank rules to pop up. FW, looking at you...

**Verviedi**

Hollow wrote:
MLaw wrote:
I remember playing 40k when people didn't give a gak what "tier" armies were. The game seemed much more fun without those type of concepts. I wonder why people keep going back to them?

This is what I have an issue with. All these arse-dribble terms are a relatively recent adoption. To those who have said I need to find out how "games function" and that "these terms have been around forever and are part of the game" must be new to the scene. I've been playing wargames for 25 years. 20+ years with GW, things didn't use to be discussed in these terms, mainly because the terms are ridiculous, don't actually mean much and are generally used by plebsicles who like to discuss how many gigawatts are in their idonglephone. BORING.

Spoiler:

Not the starting set up lots of the fluff, setting is still grim dark, everything to 40k, The model dies. Not the transport and that have finished of the farcical "I have gone before. As others have seen of information. The setting is getting new rules of like the case that "these terms such as a relatively recent adoption. To those factions. Love my Bretonnians especially. I can snipe characters, heroes and that model dies. Not the battlefield within the past and deluded, although they scream bloody murder every time a fair assessment. That's kind of like these kind of you roll of information. The model in an issue with. All these kind of June. New 40k goodness for valid criticism. I don't cry about how they have mentioned, it's funny to find out how many of a new rules are great and exclaim. It doesn't say for updates. Yet people need to find out how many gigawatts are a big campaign, new version of other wise need to AOS. Bye Bye. I like to incorporate more bloated than a jumped-up, OTT reaction to things we only have said I just reached a relatively recent adoption. To those factions. Love my Bretonnians especially. I would be rolling in the Indexes available from an over-eager faction focus articles and set up 8th edition and evil that the new version" What are those who have multiple armies, so far. Genetic superhumans are ridiculous, don't see an issue is if English isn't your site and the Indexes available from the 17th. What a wound. The only good guy countires in 40k goodness for 25 years. 20+ years with GW, things like asking is their idonglephone. BORING. The people can snipe characters, heroes and subscribed to be new and never change. 30 years and deluded, although they are improving the small amount of 7th edition into 8th. Not at all. Looking forward to tiny bit of means 'Run!',,,, total lunacy. Literally the people complain about change, I need to come. The "Why isn't a drone waaaah". Why just playing wargames for the tedious terms are just because I'm not just accept that model in these arse-dribble terms are a fair assessment. That's kind of weeks. Yet people complain for updates. Yet people can give the last 20mins or so sad and good/bad members of complaints, always come from day one (at such as 'tier, spam, no-brainer, MSU, blobs etc' can say for them to explore. I own armies for example.

This is you speaking. This is how your posts read to me. Mindless hate, for the sake of hate, and having smug superiority over those you deem as unworthy. You are insulting people for using universal terms, that have always existed. Personally, I say this bot-generated text is more coherent than you.

The sheer extent of the falsity of what you have posted in that post is mind-boggling. Are you saying that basic terms such as "MSU" or "spam" are new? They have always been around. Spam has existed since there were more than three units in the game.

**ClockworkZion**

Verviedi wrote:
Hollow wrote:
Verviedi wrote:
Hollow wrote:
As others have mentioned, it's funny to see the monotonous meta-dorks twist and turn in a desperate attempt to fit 8th edition into their existing pigeon holes. As we don't have all the information yet nobody can say for sure... however; with the play-tested and newly costed simultaneous release of all units this edition, perhaps the tedious terms such as 'tier, spam, no-brainer, MSU, blobs etc' can be retired. I understand why the meta-dorks desperately cling to these monotonous descriptors, as it can give the illusion they actually know what they are talking about.

All of those words are common descriptors that describe things that will always be in the game, no matter how much GW changes it. (Unless they remove units, and make every model its own unit) What the hell are you smoking?

Incredibly strong skunk. My point is that people are desperately trying to place factions into tiers with each new piece of information. If this edition is truly balanced, then the concept of 'tiers' evaporates and hopefully the stigma that people have mentioned in regards to playing particular factions goes with it.

It won't be. There is no chance in hell that GW (Remember who we're dealing with) will make a completely balanced game. Tiers will remain, the gaps will close. We'll be able to form complete tier pyramids within a day of the full rules releasing.

We're not just dealing with GW's design team but a rather large group of play testers and the ability to feedback problems at launch.

Any wrinkles should be wrinkled out fairly fast, especially if there are any major problems.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

streetsamurai wrote:
don't like that orks have so many bonus to move and charge faster. They are not eldat, it doens't fit the army. Would have like much better for them to have a rule a la hammer of wrath instead

Orks are combat junkies looking for their fix. Of course they'd push a little harder to get into combat sooner.

That said the army is probably going to be M5" (M4" Manz) outside of transports and bikes, so they'll need the extra buffs of things like assaulting after advancing to make up for their stumpy legs.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

kestral wrote:
Well, battleshock appears to be one of those rules that only applies to OTHER PEOPLE, since Ork Ld in 10-20 range make it a moot point, synapse makes it a moot point, small elite units are pretty much off the hook, death guard plague walkers don't take it, etc. Who will be the unlucky few for whom it is really a problem? Small ork units I suppose.

Battleshock seems to finish off crippled units faster instead of a way to wipe full sized units quickly.

**streetsamurai**

lol, is somenone really complaining that others use the terms MSU, spam and tier?
And does he really think that these terms won't apply to 8th edition?

**Kanluwen**

kestral wrote:
Well, battleshock appears to be one of those rules that only applies to OTHER PEOPLE, since Ork Ld in 10-20 range make it a moot point, synapse makes it a moot point, small elite units are pretty much off the hook, death guard plague walkers don't take it, etc. Who will be the unlucky few for whom it is really a problem? Small ork units I suppose.

This is what people were claiming early on with AoS, as Stormcast Eternals and Khorne Bloodbound both had ways of making things immune.

Remember that the immunity for both, effectively, comes from circumstances.
An Ork unit of 30 that suffers 10 casualties from shooting might not be too hurt by it...but an Ork unit of 30 that loses 10 casualties from shooting and another 10-12 from close combat?
A unit of Hormagaunts that has its Synapse umbrella shot out from them?

That's a whole different kettle of fish.

**Verviedi**

Spoiler:

I wouldn't be so sure. Balancing a game like this is, by all respects, impossible. There are too many variables and combos for perfect balance to exist. Especially when it involves GW.

**davou**

streetsamurai wrote:
don't like that orks have so many bonus to move and charge faster. They are not eldat, it doens't fit the army. Would have like much better for them to have a rule a la hammer of wrath instead

Yeah, how dare GW break the tradition of not giving orks anything.

I also think that instead of bonuses that actually matter and make them playable, they should have been given a lengthy worded rule that when everything is counted does not actually benefit them over the course of the game.

s/

**streetsamurai**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Verviedi wrote:
Hollow wrote:
Verviedi wrote:
Hollow wrote:
As others have mentioned, it's funny to see the monotonous meta-dorks twist and turn in a desperate attempt to fit 8th edition into their existing pigeon holes. As we don't have all the information yet nobody can say for sure... however; with the play-tested and newly costed simultaneous release of all units this edition, perhaps the tedious terms such as 'tier, spam, no-brainer, MSU, blobs etc' can be retired. I understand why the meta-dorks desperately cling to these monotonous descriptors, as it can give the illusion they actually know what they are talking about.

All of those words are common descriptors that describe things that will always be in the game, no matter how much GW changes it. (Unless they remove units, and make every model its own unit) What the hell are you smoking?

Incredibly strong skunk. My point is that people are desperately trying to place factions into tiers with each new piece of information. If this edition is truly balanced, then the concept of 'tiers' evaporates and hopefully the stigma that people have mentioned in regards to playing particular factions goes with it.

It won't be. There is no chance in hell that GW (Remember who we're dealing with) will make a completely balanced game. Tiers will remain, the gaps will close. We'll be able to form complete tier pyramids within a day of the full rules releasing.

We're not just dealing with GW's design team but a rather large group of play testers and the ability to feedback problems at launch.

Any wrinkles should be wrinkled out fairly fast, especially if there are any major problems.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

streetsamurai wrote:
don't like that orks have so many bonus to move and charge faster. They are not eldat, it doens't fit the army. Would have like much better for them to have a rule a la hammer of wrath instead

Orks are combat junkies looking for their fix. Of course they'd push a little harder to get into combat sooner.

That said the army is probably going to be M5" (M4" Manz) outside of transports and bikes, so they'll need the extra buffs of things like assaulting after advancing to make up for their stumpy legs.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

kestral wrote:
Well, battleshock appears to be one of those rules that only applies to OTHER PEOPLE, since Ork Ld in 10-20 range make it a moot point, synapse makes it a moot point, small elite units are pretty much off the hook, death guard plague walkers don't take it, etc. Who will be the unlucky few for whom it is really a problem? Small ork units I suppose.

Battleshock seems to finish off crippled units faster instead of a way to wipe full sized units quickly.

there's no chance in hell that the game will be truly balanced. Way too much variations between armies. The best we can expect is that there is no aberrations a la scatter bikes and wulfen.

**Daedalus81**

Verviedi wrote:

It won't be. There is no chance in hell that GW (Remember who we're dealing with) will make a completely balanced game. Tiers will remain, the gaps will close. We'll be able to form complete tier pyramids within a day of the full rules releasing.

You'll be able to form them based on some conjecture. That won't make them true.

**axisofentropy**

I hadn't seen this widely reported: The American Team Championship (ATC) event claims

"Any game store that carries 40k should have a copies of the Rulebook and Indexes on June 3rd for 40k Demo Days."

With so many copies publicly out there, we'll know nearly everything soon enough. I also expect more leaks, at least the Core Rules and box set units, from demo games at WarhammerFest this weekend.

**streetsamurai**

davou wrote:
streetsamurai wrote:
don't like that orks have so many bonus to move and charge faster. They are not eldat, it doens't fit the army. Would have like much better for them to have a rule a la hammer of wrath instead

Yeah, how dare GW break the tradition of not giving orks anything.

I also think that instead of bonuses that actually matter and make them playable, they should have been given a lengthy worded rule that when everything is counted does not actually benefit them over the course of the game.

s/

Again, you prove once again that you don't really know the game. These bonus to charge were already present in 7th edition.

And I sincerly wonder how you came to such a conclusion by reading my post.

**ClockworkZion**

streetsamurai wrote:
lol, is somenone really complaining that others use the terms MSU, spam and tier?
And does he really think that these terms won't apply to 8th edition?

I think some of them will change meanings or end up being applied differently than before, but no, the terms in general will likely stay around.

I look forward to seeing what the new "-star" armies look like.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Kanluwen wrote:
kestral wrote:
Well, battleshock appears to be one of those rules that only applies to OTHER PEOPLE, since Ork Ld in 10-20 range make it a moot point, synapse makes it a moot point, small elite units are pretty much off the hook, death guard plague walkers don't take it, etc. Who will be the unlucky few for whom it is really a problem? Small ork units I suppose.

This is what people were claiming early on with AoS, as Stormcast Eternals and Khorne Bloodbound both had ways of making things immune.

Remember that the immunity for both, effectively, comes from circumstances.
An Ork unit of 30 that suffers 10 casualties from shooting might not be too hurt by it...but an Ork unit of 30 that loses 10 casualties from shooting and another 10-12 from close combat?
A unit of Hormagaunts that has its Synapse umbrella shot out from them?

That's a whole different kettle of fish.

Pretty much this.

They're resistant, not immune.

MSU isn't especially advisable in AoS. Yes, you might have decent Ld/Bravery, but there's ways to lower that. And if I can reliably kill just a couple then drop your Ld/Bravery to take care of the rest, you bet your bippy that's exactly what I'm going to go for.

Played right, MSU lets me deal with you faster, as I need only inflict a couple of casualties on the unit to cripple it through Battleshock. Have that happen a few times, especially in missions where VPs are bagged by bumping off units and you'll soon see it for the flawed plan it can be. Especially if I have relatively ready access to Mortal Wounds...

**Tyel**

There is going to be a tier list.
There always has been and there always will be.
The only people who don't recognise it are either really not interested in the hobby as a game or are playing a top tier army and don't want to feel bad about steamrolling people.

The thing about a tier list is that it can be big or small. There is too much complexity however to have perfect balance.

In 7th look at say Ynarri vs... I don't know, Orks or Nids. Its not close and there is no point pretending it is. By contrast if you were to go Orks vs Nids I don't know who has the advantage (I'd have thought Flyrant spam, but if you don't go that Orks)

**davou**

streetsamurai wrote:

Again, you prove once again that you don't really know the game. These bonus to charge and reroll were already present in 7th edition.

yes they were, and they were important then to make orks work even if they only ended up working 1/5th of the time. Now that CC seems to look like its going to matter, taking away orks movement buffs would just keep them in the basement.

What didn't make a difference was hammer of wrath, and you're suggestion that they get that instead of something that allows them to actually reach combat makes me think that you dont know the game very well either. Because hammer of wrath was never good, and wouldn't even matter in 8th if the orks couldn't ever manage to lead with some charges

**ClockworkZion**

Verviedi wrote:

Spoiler:

ClockworkZion wrote:
Verviedi wrote:
Hollow wrote:
Verviedi wrote:
Hollow wrote:
As others have mentioned, it's funny to see the monotonous meta-dorks twist and turn in a desperate attempt to fit 8th edition into their existing pigeon holes. As we don't have all the information yet nobody can say for sure... however; with the play-tested and newly costed simultaneous release of all units this edition, perhaps the tedious terms such as 'tier, spam, no-brainer, MSU, blobs etc' can be retired. I understand why the meta-dorks desperately cling to these monotonous descriptors, as it can give the illusion they actually know what they are talking about.

All of those words are common descriptors that describe things that will always be in the game, no matter how much GW changes it. (Unless they remove units, and make every model its own unit) What the hell are you smoking?

Incredibly strong skunk. My point is that people are desperately trying to place factions into tiers with each new piece of information. If this edition is truly balanced, then the concept of 'tiers' evaporates and hopefully the stigma that people have mentioned in regards to playing particular factions goes with it.

It won't be. There is no chance in hell that GW (Remember who we're dealing with) will make a completely balanced game. Tiers will remain, the gaps will close. We'll be able to form complete tier pyramids within a day of the full rules releasing.

We're not just dealing with GW's design team but a rather large group of play testers and the ability to feedback problems at launch.

Any wrinkles should be wrinkled out fairly fast, especially if there are any major problems.

I wouldn't be so sure. Balancing a game like this is, by all respects, impossible. There are too many variables and combos for perfect balance to exist. Especially when it involves GW.

We could see intentional imbalance to keep the meta from getting stuck on a specific thing become a thing too (it's common in games like DoTA and the like to release something that's overpowered so the meta changes in people taking it and developing counters to the new OP only to tone it down later).

Ideally the game will be as balanced as it can be. It won't be as perfect as a well made bed you can bounce a quarter off of, but at least it'll be be a well made bed instead of the pig sty in the barn we currently get.

**Fenris-77**

streetsamurai wrote:
don't like that orks have so many bonus to move and charge faster. They are not eldat, it doens't fit the army. Would have like much better for them to have a rule a la hammer of wrath instead

You don't play Orks, do you?

**Lockark**

I just got on good word that 30k will move to 8th ed. But their will be a wait until it happens.

Sadly this also means that untill the 8th ed relaunch, GW store operators will not be allowing people to play 30k games in their store after June 16th, because they will not be selling the 7th ed rule book, and don't want people playing with stuff they don't sell. It's going to leave 30k gameing in a wired limbo untill they update it.

I'm guessing the idea is that they don't want to 40k community to get split between 7th/8th like fantesy did dureing the WHFB/AoS transition, so don't want to support a OOP rule set. So I totally understand their choice from a marketing standpoint. It just sucks to get shoved to the side like that.

**Alpharius**

Enough of the bickering already!

Also, please STOP quoting HUGE blocks of text to then only add a sentence!

Thanks!

**streetsamurai**

davou wrote:
streetsamurai wrote:

Again, you prove once again that you don't really know the game. These bonus to charge and reroll were already present in 7th edition.

yes they were, and they were important then to make orks work even if they only ended up working 1/5th of the time. Now that CC seems to look like its going to matter, taking away orks movement buffs would just keep them in the basement.

What didn't make a difference was hammer of wrath, and you're suggestion that they get that instead of something that allows them to actually reach combat makes me think that you dont know the game very well either. Because hammer of wrath was never good, and wouldn't even matter in 8th if the orks couldn't ever manage to lead with some charges

Again, you should read more more carefully, cause right now you make no sense at all. I said a la hammer of wrath, which means similar. I'm not asking for them to get exactly the same rule, but something that make their charge more devastating would have been a lot more fluffy than simply giving them a rule that make them move faster

**ClockworkZion**

axisofentropy wrote:
I hadn't seen this widely reported: The American Team Championship (ATC) event claims

"Any game store that carries 40k should have a copies of the Rulebook and Indexes on June 3rd for 40k Demo Days."
With so many copies publicly out there, we'll know nearly everything soon enough. I also expect more leaks, at least the Core Rules and box set units, from demo games at WarhammerFest this weekend.

My FLGS has a GW sponsored tutorial event on the 3rd.

So yeah, we should be able to see the free rules in full by then (assuming someone gets them early and leaks them online).

**streetsamurai**

Fenris-77 wrote:
streetsamurai wrote:
don't like that orks have so many bonus to move and charge faster. They are not eldat, it doens't fit the army. Would have like much better for them to have a rule a la hammer of wrath instead
You don't play Orks, do you?

No, but they were my first love back in the days. Still, I don't see what this have to do with anything. You do that they are other way to boost a cc army that to give them more movement?

**davou**

streetsamurai wrote:

Again, you should read more more carefully, cause right now you make no sense at all. I said a la hammer of wrath, which means similar. I'm not asking for them to get exactly the same rule, but something that make their charge more devastating would have been a lot more fluffy than simply giving them a rule that make them move faster

Something? Something like maybe getting to strike first?

Or perhaps getting AP on the nobs big choppa?

Or maybe you mean something like not having to worry about their nob geting challenged out by a sargent that doesent matter?

Or maybe not having to worry about loosing the entire squad to a LD test and an initiative test where they were absolutely hosed?

Because all of those things REQUIRE you to actually get into combat; so it makes a lot of sense that orks got some rules that allow them to actually do that. Because none of them matter if they can never get there.

ans seriously, dont tell me I make no sense if you are going to vomit out sentences like this one

[MOD EDIT - Writing it in French doesn't suddenly make it polite when it is not. - Alpharius]

**Alpharius**

Did you two miss this:

Alpharius wrote:
Enough of the bickering already!

Also, please STOP quoting HUGE blocks of text to then only add a sentence!

Thanks!

Knock it off!

**streetsamurai**

[MOD EDIT - RULE #2 - Alpharius]