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CragHack wrote:

The same way they killed all WHF characters. The same way Graham McNeill managed to kill Forrix and blow up Dies Irae just in one sentence/paragraph. It's easy. They already know how to do it.

Tactical roles? Both shoot bolters - Numarines do it better. Both have jump pack units - Numarines still do it better. Both have 'heavy support' - Numarines still (almost, until they have their heavy weapon sets released) still do it better. And the now the new Dread.

I'm definitely not stating they WILL do this, but everything's possible. At least in my opinion.

There's some huge gaping holes in your argument.

a) The Warhammer Fantasy universe was rebooted to solve a sales crisis. The WHFB range was unprofitable. Age of Sigmar was a reinvention driven by a need to make the WHFB range profitable. By contrast, 40K makes up for the lion's share of GW's sales. Based on what anyone with a pair of eyes can tell you - or go one step further and chat to someone in the know - Space Marines go a step further and make up for something ridiculous like over half of ALL of GW's sales across ALL ranges. While you could argue there's a financial motivation to replace the existing range with the new range to get everyone to buy the new models, the existing range will still sell like hot-cakes so there's no good reason to phase them out.

b) The Gathering Storm and the initial 8th Edition narrative has involved exactly how many major character deaths? 0? 1? There's no reason for them to reboot the setting unlike WHFB, so killing off all the existing characters makes no sense. Besides, you'd have to find a way to do it without killing off all the Chaos/Xenos characters too.

c) You are factually incorrect about the battlefield roles. Tactical Marines can be equipped with special and heavy weapons, while Tactical Marines of certain chapters can also take chainswords. They are supposed to be versatile. Intercessors - also boltgun wielders - have zero versatility because they can only wield boltguns. Inceptors =/= Assault Marines, a quick glance at the models will inform you of that. Inceptors are mobile heavy gun wielders. They are far closer to Tau Crisis Battlesuits than they are Space Marine Assault Squads. There's also a critical difference between Devastators and the Hellblasters - Devastators cannot *all* take Heavy Weapons, meaning some members of a squad still have to use boltguns. Hellblasters follow the old Legion doctrine and so are *all* equipped with Heavy Weapons. Big difference.

d) The new Dreadnought has knees and can logically walk. The old one cannot. Ergo, =/=.

Lockark wrote:

I'm just telling you, A Black Library Author has stated it's Cannon you can turn existing marines into Numarines. He straight up said to expect some characters to get the upgrade.

I get it, but I don't really see them going so far as to do that across all their existing FW and GW Space Marine character models.

See now the older marines just look stubby and even cartoony compared to the new ones. And it's nice to see that all the chapters look good in primarus.

Those Space Wolves don't look right.... no Chainsword.

Caederes wrote:

CragHack wrote:

The same way they killed all WHF characters. The same way Graham McNeill managed to kill Forrix and blow up Dies Irae just in one sentence/paragraph. It's easy. They already know how to do it.

Tactical roles? Both shoot bolters - Numarines do it better. Both have jump pack units - Numarines still do it better. Both have 'heavy support' - Numarines still (almost, until they have their heavy weapon sets released) still do it better. And the now the new Dread.

I'm definitely not stating they WILL do this, but everything's possible. At least in my opinion.

There's some huge gaping holes in your argument.

a) The Warhammer Fantasy universe was rebooted to solve a sales crisis. The WHFB range was unprofitable. Age of Sigmar was a reinvention driven by a need to make the WHFB range profitable. By contrast, 40K makes up for the lion's share of GW's sales. Based on what anyone with a pair of eyes can tell you - or go one step further and chat to someone in the know - Space Marines go a step further and make up for something ridiculous like over half of ALL of GW's sales across ALL ranges. While you could argue there's a financial motivation to replace the existing range with the new range to get everyone to buy the new models, the existing range will still sell like hot-cakes so there's no good reason to phase them out.

b) The Gathering Storm and the initial 8th Edition narrative has involved exactly how many major character deaths? 0? 1? There's no reason for them to reboot the setting unlike WHFB, so killing off all the existing characters makes no sense. Besides, you'd have to find a way to do it without killing off all the Chaos/Xenos characters too.

c) You are factually incorrect about the battlefield roles. Tactical Marines can be equipped with special and heavy weapons, while Tactical Marines of certain chapters can also take chainswords. They are supposed to be versatile. Intercessors - also boltgun wielders - have zero versatility because they can only wield boltguns. Inceptors =/= Assault Marines, a quick glance at the models will inform you of that. Inceptors are mobile heavy gun wielders. They are far closer to Tau Crisis Battlesuits than they are Space Marine Assault Squads. There's also a critical difference between Devastators and the Hellblasters - Devastators cannot *all* take Heavy Weapons, meaning some members of a squad still have to use boltguns. Hellblasters follow the old Legion doctrine and so are *all* equipped with Heavy Weapons. Big difference.

d) The new Dreadnought has knees and can logically walk. The old one cannot. Ergo, =/=.

Lockark wrote:

I'm just telling you, A Black Library Author has stated it's Cannon you can turn existing marines into Numarines. He straight up said to expect some characters to get the upgrade.

I get it, but I don't really see them going so far as to do that across all their existing FW and GW Space Marine character models.

But they did leave the door wide open to slowly start phasing old marines out.

It makes a whole lot of sense for them to update some of the finecast/metal character models that otherwise would have never seen an update. It'd be a great way to bring back Cortez, for example.

However, phasing out *all* the Marines? Cypher and Voldus (among countless other factors) say No Way Jose!

I don't even know why we're still having this discussion (in general, not just with you). They flat out said they will be releasing normal Space Marine models in the future. If their plan was to phase an entire range out, that wouldn't be the case. Looking at End Times ----> Age of Sigmar is a good example for this; ranges that didn't get any models (Bretonnia, Tomb Kings) got completely removed. For the rest, they had partial removals based on cleaning up the clutter - mostly metal/finecast character models got the axe, with a few redundant plastic kits like High Elf Spearmen (as Dark Elf Spearmen stand in for them anyway).

Failing all this, just look at it from a financial perspective. It makes a whole heap of sense to sell *both* Primaris and regular Space Marines rather than just one or the other. People want true-scale Marines? Primaris. People want classic Marines? Regular. That's why the fluff for Primaris Marines shows them to be an entirely separate entity. Just looking through any thread regarding the Primaris Marines will prove why keeping both ranges together is best for business.

Images of the Death Guard with a more gritty paintjob:

a) The Warhammer Fantasy universe was rebooted to solve a sales crisis. The WHFB range was unprofitable. Age of Sigmar was a reinvention driven by a need to make the WHFB range profitable. By contrast, 40K makes up for the lion's share of GW's sales. Based on what anyone with a pair of eyes can tell you - or go one step further and chat to someone in the know - Space Marines go a step further and make up for something ridiculous like over half of ALL of GW's sales across ALL ranges. While you could argue there's a financial motivation to replace the existing range with the new range to get everyone to buy the new models, the existing range will still sell like hot-cakes so there's no good reason to phase them out.

So, following your logic, oldmarines should definitely go away, because there are new and shiny marines next to them. And who doesn't want a new and shiny version of the best selling range? If not right away, then after the sales numbers hit. Again, that's just a normal follow up of your logic.

b) The Gathering Storm and the initial 8th Edition narrative has involved exactly how many major character deaths? 0? 1? There's no reason for them to reboot the setting unlike WHFB, so killing off all the existing characters makes no sense. Besides, you'd have to find a way to do it without killing off all the Chaos/Xenos characters too.

Colour Sergeant Kell and most likely Creed. Bonus: One major planet exploded/wrecked/whatever. Don't forget, "Gathering Storm" is just a beginning.

c) You are factually incorrect about the battlefield roles. Tactical Marines can be equipped with special and heavy weapons, while Tactical Marines of certain chapters can also take chainswords. They are supposed to be versatile. Intercessors - also boltgun wielders - have zero versatility because they can only wield boltguns. Inceptors =/= Assault Marines, a quick glance at the models will inform you of that. Inceptors are mobile heavy gun wielders. They are far closer to Tau Crisis Battlesuits than they are Space Marine Assault Squads. There's also a critical difference between Devastators and the Hellblasters - Devastators cannot *all* take Heavy Weapons, meaning some members of a squad still have to use boltguns. Hellblasters follow the old Legion doctrine and so are *all* equipped with Heavy Weapons. Big difference.

Just wait until they release more of the numarine variations

I'm disappointed that the GSC lost IG vehicle and infantry options. If someone has a mixed army, they need to purchase two books at the minimum and potentially several different boxes at the worst to make up for losing units in what is now two different armies.

Nice shots of the Death Guard.

I'm glad they sized them accordingly with the new Space Marines. Having them the size of the old marines would have been an unnecessary slight to Chaos players.

 Accolade wrote:

melonmelon wrote:

Spoiler:

That last shot is hilarious. The MkIV marine looks like he's looking up to his big brother.

Little dude looks more belligerent than that.

"Don't tell your sempai what to do, first-year!"

Is... is it bad that I want to make wonky anime themed Black Templar Crusader Squads with Primaris instead of Scouts, with serious sempai/kohai dynamics between the regular marines and the newbies?

Caederes wrote:

 CragHack wrote:

In 40K, what possible fluff justification could they use to get rid of all the existing Space Marine models and characters?

Very simple: as numarines are superior to oldmarines in every way, there's no point in making oldmarines any more. Especially, when numarines can be bred faster. Let the oldmarines die out in time and be replenished with numarines.
Exactly, like you would restock any other product with a better, new and improved product.

Yeah, and what happens to Marneus Calgar, Commander Dante, Ragnar Blackmane, Cypher, Alessio Cortez, etc? You know, characters that are a major part of the history of 40K? They just disappear?

Put it to bed. They have outright stated they will not phase the old Marines out and that there will be future releases for them. If they were going the way of the dodo, there would be no new Space Marine models.

They already said they can be updated with the NuSyrum honestly as soon as the first named characters get the NuSauce it should be hard to argue against the rest of the chapter following suit.

Anybody found out what the daemonic ritual means? I think this will be the ability that makes or breaks the daemon army for many players....

(because I saw no summoning power)

Ignispacium wrote:
I'm disappointed that the GSC lost IG vehicle and infantry options. If someone has a mixed army, they need to purchase two books at the minimum and potentially several different boxes at the worst to make up for losing units in what is now two different armies.

They didn't say that at all. They mentioned new ways to build armies incorporating guard or nids but they didn't say GSC lost things like LRBT or sentinals. They might, but we don't know yet. Either way it sounds super easy to port those things back in, use your Neophyte cavalcade as your guard detachment, done.

Melionodr wrote:
Anybody found out what the daemonic ritual means? I think this will be the ability that makes or breaks the daemon army for many players....

(because I saw no summoning power)

Can't read a damn thing from any of those pages, and I'm really curious as well about all of them. My daemons are worried.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

Melionodr wrote:
Anybody found out what the daemonic ritual means? I think this will be the ability that makes or breaks the daemon army for many players....

(because I saw no summoning power)

Can't read a damn thing from any of those pages, and I'm really curious as well about all of them. My daemons are worried.

If they follow the Sigmar route the summoning spell comes from the daemon dataslate itself.

 CragHack wrote:

a) The Warhammer Fantasy universe was rebooted to solve a sales crisis. The WHFB range was unprofitable. Age of Sigmar was a reinvention driven by a need to make the WHFB range profitable. By contrast, 40K makes up for the lion's share of GW's sales. Based on what anyone with a pair of eyes can tell you - or go one step further and chat to someone in the know - Space Marines go a step further and make up for something ridiculous like over half of ALL of GW's sales across ALL ranges. While you could argue there's a financial motivation to replace the existing range with the new range to get everyone to buy the new models, the existing range will still sell like hot-cakes so there's no good reason to phase them out.

So, following your logic, oldmarines should definitely go away, because there are new and shiny marines next to them. And who doesn't want a new and shiny version of the best selling range? If not right away, then after the sales numbers hit. Again, that's just a normal follow up of your logic.

b) The Gathering Storm and the initial 8th Edition narrative has involved exactly how many major character deaths? 0? 1? There's no reason for them to reboot the setting unlike WHFB, so killing off all the existing characters makes no sense. Besides, you'd have to find a way to do it without killing off all the Chaos/Xenos characters too.

Colour Sergeant Kell and most likely Creed. Bonus: One major planet exploded/wrecked/whatever. Don't forget, "Gathering Storm" is just a beginning.

c) You are factually incorrect about the battlefield roles. Tactical Marines can be equipped with special and heavy weapons, while Tactical Marines of certain chapters can also take chainswords. They are supposed to be versatile. Intercessors - also boltgun wielders - have zero versatility because they can only wield boltguns. Inceptors =/= Assault Marines, a quick glance at the models will inform you of that. Inceptors are mobile heavy gun wielders. They are far closer to Tau Crisis Battlesuits than they are Space Marine Assault Squads. There's also a critical difference between Devastators and the Hellblasters - Devastators cannot *all* take Heavy Weapons, meaning some members of a squad still have to use boltguns. Hellblasters follow the old Legion doctrine and so are *all* equipped with Heavy Weapons. Big difference.

Just wait until they release more of the numarine variations

Knell is a secondary character at best and Creed wasn't killed.

I mean we've had models for those characters for years. The people who love them that much should've already played quite a few games with their original models over the past few years right, right? I guess sure, Ragnar could use an update but honestly why make the same model twice?

I'd be perfectly fine with a primaris Calgar.

@CragHack

8th Edition is propelling the narrative of 40k forward by a few decades from what I understand. The sales of most releases - even in this hobby - tend to be front loaded. The new edition is apparently going to follow the AoS route and thus receive minor yearly updates rather than a rare total paradigm shift. If they were going to phase out the Old Marines so the Primaris Marines could get maximum exposure, they would have done it already. To do it later once the Primaris Marines are competing with OTHER new releases makes little sense. Let's not forget that the existing Space Marine range is by far GW's biggest seller. Again, what legitimate financial reason do they have to get rid of them? Let's not forget the very recent Space Marine models we got. Also, your "in the future" comment doesn't hold weight because GW said they are releasing new regular Space Marine models down the line. What exactly is the timeline of this phasing out?

Creed got captured by Trazyn, so no, he doesn't really count. That leaves us with Kell. Considering he's not even a Space Marine, this doesn't really help your argument.

Doesn't change the fact that you were misrepresenting the differences between the seemingly equivalent units.

@ Red Corsair

Read my earlier posts, I'd prefer not to repeat myself. It opens the door for characters like Cortez to return to the tabletop, it doesn't signify the end of all Marines. As far as Chapters "wanting to follow suit", the Warhammer Community articles clearly stated some regular Marines have no love for the Primaris Marines.


Ultimately, you guys can believe what you want. GW said they are releasing new regular Space Marine models and won't phase out their best selling range (by FAR I might add) across all game systems. Seems pretty obvious what will happen.

 CragHack wrote:

Just wait until they release more of the numarine variations

It is funny how people think these are all numarines. No direct assault marine now? Ok doesn't mean no in future. Heavy inside squad? What prevents new option later.

Let me settle this silly debate once and for all.

Primaris Marines are being released over the next few months with the first batch coming in June.
GW are releasing regular Space Marine models down the line.

This means they will release new regular Space Marine models AFTER releasing Primaris Marine models.

We're done here.

Now, let's talk about something relevant.
The new Perils rules will be amusing with Orks if Weirdboys function much as they do now.

Upthread there was a mention of Primaris Marines bring a separate army from Space Marines. Is this true or did I misinterpret something? I really hope it isn't the case, since I want to still have stuff from my regular Crimson Fists in my army.

What do we all think about the fliers no longer being able to fly on and off the battlefield? I kind of think it removes the unique feeling of them and also makes them feel a little less useful.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Upthread there was a mention of Primaris Marines bring a separate army from Space Marines. Is this true or did I misinterpret something? I really hope it isn't the case, since I want to still have stuff from my regular Crimson Fists in my army.

Technically they're their own faction. Just as Daemons and CSM are their own factions.

However with the way armies are built now and the use of Keywords there's a lot more flexibility in making an army.

So you could literally build an army using the Keyword Imperium - mixing and matching AM, SM, Primaris and Ad-Mech freely. Or you could use the Keyword <Chapter Name> using SM and Primaris.

Just like Chaos can now quite happily use the Keyword Chaos to combine Daemons, Renegades and CSM or <Chaos God> to combine Daemons and CSM of a specific god. Or just go mono with it.

They keyword system is great, it keeps synergies locked to smaller factions but lets you mix and match larger alliances as you see fit. It's definitely one of the better AoS ports.

 lolman1c wrote:
What do we all think about the fliers no longer being able to fly on and off the battlefield? I kind of think it removes the unique feeling of them and also makes them feel a little less useful.

Frankly I would rather have poorly simulated flyers than flyers that break the framework the rest of the game runs on. If they're just fast skimmers with a minimum move and a -1 to hit penalty now, I couldn't be happier short of them managing to miraculously come up with simulationist rules that aren't really awkward.

If they were going to phase out the Old Marines so the Primaris Marines could get maximum exposure, they would have done it already.

My guess it's because they just don't want to anger a very good bunch of players. It's always more gentle when you do it slowly

To do it later once the Primaris Marines are competing with OTHER new releases makes little sense.

We don't know anything about new releases. It might as well be whole summer of numarines with a few DG releases. Just like with Sigmarines.

Again, what legitimate financial reason do they have to get rid of them?

As I've said, if they are outsold like 10 to 1 (Like, it was with Lucius and Mars Titans, in example), I see no reason why they shouldn't focus on what's selling better.

Also, your "in the future" comment doesn't hold weight because GW said they are releasing new regular Space Marine models down the line.

I'm too lazy to scroll back, but wasn't that comment more in the lines of "eh, someday, don't have high hopes about it"?

Creed got captured by Trazyn, so no, he doesn't really count.

Slaanesh got captured too. Have we heard anything about it since then? It's been two years now Kell has its own model, so I think he DOES count.

Considering he's not even a Space Marine, this doesn't really help your argument.

I will repeat myself once again: the action is only starting. Killing characters slowly shouldn't be so painful as killing them all in one go

Anyways, this discussion is kinda pointless. Let's just wait and see. I don't really care anyways, I don't play marines

@CragHack

They didn't do it slowly with AoS. As I said, new edition with the narrative advancing by several decades? Perfect time to do the phasing out or at least kick it off.

GW releases new models nearly every week. I'm talking months or years into the future. If new regular Space Marine models are coming but not any time soon per GW's words, what logical time frame is there between releasing those and phasing them out? A couple of years at least? That's a LOT of new releases. Primaris Marines won't be the shiny new toy by then.

If. That's a huge if. Even then, if they still sell better than the other ranges - which they obviously will regardless of how well Primaris Marines do - there's still no good financial reason to remove them.

Again, what is the timeframe? How long will this mythical phasing out take?

What's your point? Slaanesh isn't dead, he's tied into the impending Shadow Aelves release. Creed also isn't dead.

Obviously. Yet here's the problem; the narrative moved forward a whole lot of years between Rise of the Primarch and 8th Edition; think decades. Have we heard of any major character deaths yet? We just saw Dante survive a Hive Fleet.

Fair enough.
Even so...they are releasing new regular Marines after Primaris Marines. That kills the phasing out theory.

tneva82 wrote:

 CragHack wrote:

Just wait until they release more of the numarine variations

It is funny how people think these are all numarines. No direct assault marine now? Ok doesn't mean no in future. Heavy inside squad? What prevents new option later.

It's funny that you think 'WELL THEY COULD DO IT!?! supports your argument. Honestly I don't really understand why it's a big thing if they do eclipse oldmarines. The models are better and if you can still use rogue trader marines just fine I doubt very much that you'll be banned for not using numarines.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Upthread there was a mention of Primaris Marines bring a separate army from Space Marines. Is this true or did I misinterpret something? I really hope it isn't the case, since I want to still have stuff from my regular Crimson Fists in my army.

Technically they're their own faction. Just as Daemons and CSM are their own factions.

However with the way armies are built now and the use of Keywords there's a lot more flexibility in making an army.

So you could literally build an army using the Keyword Imperium - mixing and matching AM, SM, Primaris and Ad-Mech freely. Or you could use the Keyword <Chapter Name> using SM and Primaris.

Just like Chaos can now quite happily use the Keyword Chaos to combine Daemons, Renegades and CSM or <Chaos God> to combine Daemons and CSM of a specific god. Or just go mono with it.

Okay good. As long as I can run a mixed army in one detachment without penalty, I will be happy. Thanks for clarifying.

I really need that Redemptor Dreadnought though. He combines the Contemptor and AWM Dreadnought into one cohesive beastie. I can't wait for a Furioso Variant. I hope there are more weapons than the plasma cannon, but otherwise I am happy with the loadout.

GW has been on fire recently


Kevin Rountree really did turn this company around with all these great releases

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Upthread there was a mention of Primaris Marines bring a separate army from Space Marines. Is this true or did I misinterpret something? I really hope it isn't the case, since I want to still have stuff from my regular Crimson Fists in my army.

Per the information I have seen so far, they are not their own faction unless there is a <Chapter> simply called Primaris. Whether this is the case or not, they can still be Crimson Fists, assuming that Crimson Fists is one of the factions in the <Chapter> list (I don't think we know anything about what our options here are yet).

This is important because there are certain Abilities that only affect certain chapters, an example of which being shown in the new Captain in Gravis Armor, who's Rites of Battle lets other marines of the same <Chapter> reroll 1s to hit. We can assume that the Crimson Fists would have these sorts of abilities as well.

Thus we can assume that you can pick Crimson Fists as the <Chapter>, and the Primaris Marines become Crimson Fists for all intents and purposes, gaining any Abilities common to all Crimson Fists, and affecting other non-primaris Crimson fists with any <Chapter> abilities they might posses, such as the Captain in Gravis Armor's Rites of Battle Ability. This is cool because it means that the primaris marines are not allies like, say, guardsmen might be, but are actually a real part of your army.

This also means that if you had an army with both Crimson Fists and say, Space Wolves, you would need to pick one of those <Chapters> for the Primaris to be, and you would only be affected by the abilities of the one you pick. I suppose you could also pick a third <Chapter> entirely, though there might not be much a point to that. I like this in that it allows you to take an army of mixed secondary factions if you want to, but potentially provides more synergy if you focus on only one.