40k New Edition Summary - 14th June 17: Lord Duncan paints Primaris in Gravis/non-codex SM focus

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**Leth**

I get the feeling that the primaris marines will have units in each slot so if you wanted you could run an entire army of primaris, you could decide to mix them up, or not.

Basically think of it as space marines getting an extra few choices in their codex rather than a replacement. And with the prices we have seen it doesnt seem like they are going to be "marines only better" once you factor in the points cost.

**Galas**

The indexes. Those are some good books for 20€

**casvalremdeikun**

Galas wrote:
The indexes. Those are some good books for 20€

Agreed. They look pretty thick. Which means they will still likely have some fluff and modeling stuff in them.

**Cephalobeard**

Good, now nab one and scan it to the internet.

**jcd386**

jcd386 wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
Upthread there was a mention of Primaris Marines bring a separate army from Space Marines. Is this true or did I misinterpret something? I really hope it isn't the case, since I want to still have stuff from my regular Crimson Fists in my army.

Per the information I have seen so far, they are not their own faction unless there is a <Chapter> simply called Primaris. Whether this is the case or not, they can still be Crimson Fists, assuming that Crimson Fists is one of the factions in the <Chapter> list (I don't think we know anything about what our options here are yet).

This is important because there are certain Abilities that only affect certain chapters, an example of which being shown in the new Captain in Gravis Armor, who's Rites of Battle lets other marines of the same <Chapter> reroll 1s to hit. We can assume that the Crimson Fists would have these sorts of abilities as well.

Thus we can assume that you can pick Crimson Fists as the <Chapter>, and the Primaris Marines become Crimson Fists for all intents and purposes, gaining any Abilities common to all Crimson Fists, and affecting other non-primaris Crimson fists with any <Chapter> abilities they might posses, such as the Captain in Gravis Armor's Rites of Battle Ability. This is cool because it means that the primaris marines are not allies like, say, guardsmen might be, but are actually a real part of your army.

This also means that if you had an army with both Crimson Fists and say, Space Wolves, you would need to pick one of those <Chapters> for the Primaris to be, and you would only be affected by the abilities of the one you pick. I suppose you could also pick a third <Chapter> entirely, though there might not be much a point to that. I like this in that it allows you to take an army of mixed secondary factions if you want to, but potentially provides more synergy if you focus on only one.

To add to this, in the FAQ they also mentioned that some new Chapters were made entirely from Primaris Marines, so that should also be interesting. What is comes down to is, you can basically make them part of any space marine faction you want.

**Gamgee**

Excellent. Might have to grab both xenos if they have fluff. That way I can see if the DE got any cool new tidbits.

**Sidstyler**

Caederes wrote:
They didn't do it slowly with AoS.

Yeah, and look at the massively negative reaction AoS got because of it. And that was for a "dead game" at that. It was received so poorly that AoS products were being sold for fire sale prices not long before the GHB came out, if I'm not mistaken.

Sounds like they might have learned their lesson, yeah?

Caederes wrote:
As I said, new edition with the narrative advancing by several decades? Perfect time to do the phasing out or at least kick it off.

...which is kinda what they're doing, isn't it? Why else would there be a need to make fluff dictating that old Marines can be "converted" into the new ones? That's GW "kicking it off" right there, officially putting it in print, so that if they so chose they have a good in-universe justification for phasing out the old product line and replacing it with the new. I imagine it all depends on how they sell over the next couple years.

They're saying that old Marines won't be phased out because they're not fething stupid. That kind of news would cause far, FAR greater backlash than AoS did on release. They're playing it safe.

GW also once promised Squats would get updated, not too long before they were removed from the game entirely because no one in the studio could be arsed about them. Allegedly sales didn't even have anything to do with it.

Caederes wrote:

Even so...they are releasing new regular Marines after Primaris Marines. That kills the phasing out theory.

So they say, anyway.

I guess you're right though, I mean I can't think of any reason why they'd possibly want to lie about wanting to replace the Marine range, it's not like they allegedly account for over half of their sales or anything and thus needs to be handled very delicately to avoid anything potentially disastrous for the company...

Anyway, those indices look reasonably thick. Was a little worried they'd be light on content for $25 but that doesn't seem to be the case yet.

**Lockark**

So I realized with the new plasma gun rules, it seems medics and apothocaries no longer help your plasmagun squads from blowing up.

**Leth**

Lockark wrote:
So I realized with the new plasma gun rules, it seems medics and apothocaries no longer help your plasmagun squads from blowing up.

Depends, we have no idea if apoths are still part of units or are going to be more like separate characters

**Yodhrin**

Caederes wrote:
CragHack wrote:

The same way they killed all WHF characters. The same way Graham McNeill managed to kill Forrix and blow up Dies Irae just in one sentence/paragraph. It's easy. They already know how to do it.

Tactical roles? Both shoot bolters - Numarines do it better. Both have jump pack units - Numarines still do it better. Both have 'heavy support' - Numarines still (almost, until they have their heavy weapon sets released) still do it better. And the now the new Dread.

I'm definitely not stating they WILL do this, but everything's possible. At least in my opinion.

There's some huge gaping holes in your argument.

a) The Warhammer Fantasy universe was rebooted to solve a sales crisis. The WHFB range was unprofitable. Age of Sigmar was a reinvention driven by a need to make the WHFB range profitable.

If you're going to make pronouncements with such authority, you should probably bother to actually check you're right first. There are no indications at all that WHFB was unprofitable, and it certainly wasn't at the time the studio chose to begin working on Age of Sigmar. The decision makers at the company merely decided it wasn't profitable enough, and thought they could make a bigger RoI through a drastic reboot rather than giving WHF the support necessary to do better.

Besides which, the point being made by reference to the End Times was not that the same logic that drove the End Times/AoS shift is the one driving the Restartes(it is though, albeit in a more moderate way due to the relative share of revenues enjoyed by 40K & SM), it's that GW will lie out the arse to our faces, or at least deliberately omit the truth, if it suits their purposes to do so. Treating their insistance there will be more regular Marine releases at some point in the future as relatively plausible is one thing, treating it as inviolable divine law as you seem to be is just begging to be disappointed.

**Mr_Rose**

Leth wrote:
Lockark wrote:
So I realized with the new plasma gun rules, it seems medics and apothocaries no longer help your plasmagun squads from blowing up.

Depends, we have no idea if apoths are still part of units or are going to be more like separate characters

The point is that even if they are, plasma gun explosions remove models entirely, just like failed morale tests. Apothecaries might be able to bubble-heal inflicted wounds on some roll or other, but the backfiring gun does not inflict wounds to save or negate.

**Lockark**

Leth wrote:
Lockark wrote:
So I realized with the new plasma gun rules, it seems medics and apothocaries no longer help your plasmagun squads from blowing up.

Depends, we have no idea if apoths are still part of units or are going to be more like separate characters

Well. It's mainly that the new plasma gun rules don't allow for any sort of save to be taken. You just remove the whole model from the table regardless of how many wounds it has.

Anthocaries/medics traditionally gave you a chance to save a slain model, but also could be improving your armour save. But the fact it seems the new rules just remove the model from the game, gives me a feeling medics can't help them anymore.

Edit:

Mr_Rose wrote:
Leth wrote:
Lockark wrote:
So I realized with the new plasma gun rules, it seems medics and apothocaries no longer help your plasmagun squads from blowing up.

Depends, we have no idea if apoths are still part of units or are going to be more like separate characters

The point is that even if they are, plasma gun explosions remove models entirely, just like failed morale tests. Apothecaries might be able to bubble-heal inflicted wounds on some roll or other, but the backfiring gun does not inflict wounds to save or negate.

Yah, this is how I'm understanding it also. I guess in the case of the IG I'm starting for 8th, they trusty old 3 plasma guns plus medic got nerfed.... Guess I need a 4th plasma gun for the squad now lol.

**Aesthete**

Grinshanks wrote:
I guess it could be read as a description of new ally rules. I personally read it as a GSC army ability that for every GSC detachment they can take a AM or Tyranid one.

Yeah, that was my read as well and I think - though that's inference on my part - that said Guard detachments will get a Tyranid keyword as well.

**jcd386**

Mr_Rose wrote:
Leth wrote:
Lockark wrote:
So I realized with the new plasma gun rules, it seems medics and apothocaries no longer help your plasmagun squads from blowing up.

Depends, we have no idea if apoths are still part of units or are going to be more like separate characters

The point is that even if they are, plasma gun explosions remove models entirely, just like failed morale tests. Apothecaries might be able to bubble-heal inflicted wounds on some roll or other, but the backfiring gun does not inflict wounds to save or negate.

While you are right about the backfiring, we really have no idea how the Nartheciums might work yet. I assume it will be something like the death guard's Disgustingly Resiliant, meaning that there really is a high price to pay for the S8 D2. I'm not sure i see that as a bad thing, though.

**unmercifulconker**

Galas wrote:
The indexes. Those are some good books for 20€

Oh snap I thought these were gonna be just thin booklets with the stats. Hopefully there is a fair bit of fluff here.

Loving that new Dread, Terminators best be next.

I guess we will see new DG stuff tomorrow in the seminar. That artwork is outstanding and eager to see if those beasties are models, the BoN looks like it has a bit of Tyranid in it and that I sure hope that GUO has a model form.

And damn GW, its like they know I just planned to use those Primaris as BA and IF. What do they do, show off some beautiful IF Primaris and release a BA transfer with a St Michael esque pose for both banners and vehicle stencils. Holy

they are beautiful.

Those Kharadron dioramas. My lawd.

**Lockark**

hhmmmmm. Was reading the descriptions for the Forge World Index books.

Index: forces of the astra militarum wrote:Datasheets for all of Forge World’s Warhammer 40,000 Astra Militarum range, including Death Korps of Krieg and Elysian models, and Renegade Imperial Guard forces as well as the immense war machines of the Titan Legions and Knight Houses.

Index: Forces of Chaos wrote:
Datasheets for all of Forge World’s Warhammer 40,000 Chaos Space Marines and Daemon models, as well as Chaos Titans.

Due to the rules hint we were given today in regards to Genesteeler cult, we might just be able to take Gaurd units as tratior Gaurd like the genestealer cult can? Hopefully I'm not getting my hopes up for no reason. lol

**adamsouza**

Yodhrin wrote:

If you're going to make pronouncements with such authority, you should probably bother to actually check you're right first. There are no indications at all that WHFB was unprofitable, and it certainly wasn't at the time the studio chose to begin working on Age of Sigmar.

Kirby was quoted saying that the 40K Tactical Space Marines Box outsold and was more profitable than the entire range of Warhammer Fantasy combined.

No, I'm not going to hunt down the source from years ago, because you've been living under a rock.

**ERJAK**

unmercifulconker wrote:
Galas wrote:
The indexes. Those are some good books for 20€

Oh snap I thought these were gonna be just thin booklets with the stats. Hopefully there is a fair bit of fluff here.

Loving that new Dread, Terminators best be next.

I guess we will see new DG stuff tomorrow in the seminar. That artwork is outstanding and eager to see if those beasties are models, the BoN looks like it has a bit of Tyranid in it and that I sure hope that GUO has a model form.

And damn GW, its like they know I just planned to use those Primaris as BA and IF. What do they do, show off some beautiful IF Primaris and release a BA transfer with a St Michael esque pose for both banners and vehicle stencils. Holy they are beautiful.

Those Kharadron dioramas. My lawd.

Even as big as they are I doubt there's more than a page of fluff per faction in them. There are A LOT of units in 40k + any special army rules they choose to include.

**spiralingcadaver**

Hmm, think I can live without any Primaris marines, they really do make regulars look a bit derpy.

So... anyone able to confirm/ask what if any FW lists are making it into those IA books? Ex:
Eldar Corsairs
Tyrant's Legion
IG/AM tank company
Ork dread mob(or something like that?)
the variations on krieg/renegade/elysian lists?
SM siege army (or w/e it's called)
...maybe I'm missing some?

**Gamgee**

A quick count of the Xenos models from book 2 would be approximately 135 models. If it's one page per model then it makes sense, some might be two if they have lots of options. Add in faction rules no doubt. We know that chaos has chaos marks and legions. Marines have chapter tactics ect. For Tau we've seen a specific sept mentioned so we will likely have sept tactics. I suspect every faction will have quite a bit of unique rules to fill out a book that big. Still I imagine at least a page or two of fluff given the books density.

**Lockark**

spiralingcadaver wrote:
Hmm, think I can live without any Primaris marines, they really do make regulars look a bit derpy.

So... anyone able to confirm/ask what if any FW lists are making it into those IA books? Ex:
Eldar Corsairs
Tyrant's Legion
IG/AM tank company
Ork dread mob(or something like that?)
the variations on krieg/renegade/elysian lists?
SM siege army (or w/e it's called)
...maybe I'm missing some?

With the 3-6 Heavy support Spearhead detachment, I'm not sure if tank company needs to exist anymore? You just only get 1 CP per detachment is the downside. Maby the same with the Dread Mod and SM siege army?

**tneva82**

adamsouza wrote:
Yodhrin wrote:

If you're going to make pronouncements with such authority, you should probably bother to actually check you're right first. There are no indications at all that WHFB was unprofitable, and it certainly wasn't at the time the studio chose to begin working on Age of Sigmar.

Kirby was quoted saying that the 40K Tactical Space Marines Box outsold and was more profitable than the entire range of Warhammer Fantasy combined.

No, I'm not going to hunt down the source from years ago, because you've been living under a rock.

Doesn't mean fb wasn't also profitable. DUCY?

Would be pretty unlikely top3 selling game(all mini games) would be unprofitable. What the hell gw could be screwlng that makes that well selling product unprofitable.

**lord_blackfang**

You guys are aware that every single unit will take up a whole page, right?

**ERJAK**

tneva82 wrote:
adamsouza wrote:
Yodhrin wrote:

If you're going to make pronouncements with such authority, you should probably bother to actually check you're right first. There are no indications at all that WHFB was unprofitable, and it certainly wasn't at the time the studio chose to begin working on Age of Sigmar.

Kirby was quoted saying that the 40K Tactical Space Marines Box outsold and was more profitable than the entire range of Warhammer Fantasy combined.

No, I'm not going to hunt down the source from years ago, because you've been living under a rock.

Doesn't mean fb wasn't also profitable. DUCY?

Would be pretty unlikely top3 selling game(all mini games) would be unprofitable. What the hell gw could be screwlng that makes that well selling product unprofitable.

There's so much contradictory information regarding WHFB and sales that you could argue pretty much any point you wanted to and find SOMETHING to back it up. The important things are A) WHFB is dead and nothing's gonna bring it back and B) This is not a WHFB thread.

**Cuz05**

Don't see why they wouldn't just chop a broken restartes to fit the standard Dread....

...reasons...

**lolman1c**

Could I not bring an ork mob of gretchin, warlord, boyz and then a heavy battalion for 4 command points?

**axisofentropy**

I'm seeing a few peoples saying Primaris marines are their own faction. But the dataslates are unambiguous:

FACTION KEYWORDS
Imperium, Adeptus Astartes, <Chapter>

They are Space Marines.

**Asherian Command**

Lockark wrote:
Caederes wrote:
CragHack wrote:

The same way they killed all WHF characters. The same way Graham McNeill managed to kill Forrix and blow up Dies Irae just in one sentence/paragraph. It's easy. They already know how to do it.

Tactical roles? Both shoot bolters - Numarines do it better. Both have jump pack units - Numarines still do it better. Both have 'heavy support' - Numarines still (almost, until they have their heavy weapon sets released) still do it better. And the now the new Dread.

I'm definitely not stating they WILL do this, but everything's possible. At least in my opinion.

There's some huge gaping holes in your argument.

a) The Warhammer Fantasy universe was rebooted to solve a sales crisis. The WHFB range was unprofitable. Age of Sigmar was a reinvention driven by a need to make the WHFB range profitable. By contrast, 40K makes up for the lion's share of GW's sales. Based on what anyone with a pair of eyes can tell you - or go one step further and chat to someone in the know - Space Marines go a step further and make up for something ridiculous like over half of ALL of GW's sales across ALL ranges. While you could argue there's a financial motivation to replace the existing range with the new range to get everyone to buy the new models, the existing range will still sell like hot-cakes so there's no good reason to phase them out.

b) The Gathering Storm and the initial 8th Edition narrative has involved exactly how many major character deaths? 0? 1? There's no reason for them to reboot the setting unlike WHFB, so killing off all the existing characters makes no sense. Besides, you'd have to find a way to do it without killing off all the Chaos/Xenos characters too.

c) You are factually incorrect about the battlefield roles. Tactical Marines can be equipped with special and heavy weapons, while Tactical Marines of certain chapters can also take chainswords. They are supposed to be versatile. Intercessors - also boltgun wielders - have zero versatility because they can only wield boltguns. Inceptors =/= Assault Marines, a quick glance at the models will inform you of that. Inceptors are mobile heavy gun wielders. They are far closer to Tau Crisis Battlesuits than they are Space Marine Assault Squads. There's also a critical difference between Devastators and the Hellblasters - Devastators cannot *all* take Heavy Weapons, meaning some members of a squad still have to use boltguns. Hellblasters follow the old Legion doctrine and so are *all* equipped with Heavy Weapons. Big difference.

d) The new Dreadnought has knees and can logically walk. The old one cannot. Ergo, =/=.

Lockark wrote:

I'm just telling you, A Black Library Author has stated it's Cannon you can turn existing marines into Numarines. He straight up said to expect some characters to get the upgrade.

I get it, but I don't really see them going so far as to do that across all their existing FW and GW Space Marine character models.

But they did leave the door wide open to slowly start phasing old Marines out.

That'd be an assumption there friend. That's one assuming that is their entry strategy, and two that a Black Library Author Confirmed it is like saying "Oh but there were addendums from the non-designers." If it did not come directly from GW itself and not some outsourced author. We cannot make those assumptions as of yet. We have no idea if marines will be phased out. Hell, we don't even know what they are doing with Primaris Marines. Maybe they felt they needed to add more variety to armies and 40k lists. Because space marine lists are often quite similar to add more variety and character differences would be a welcome addition.

From all we know, there is a possibility that this just a new unit.

I would reserve those comments until after the entire edition and all lore pertaining is FULLY released before making such comments.

**jcd386**

axisofentropy wrote:
I'm seeing a few peoples saying Primaris marines are their own faction. But the dataslates are unambiguous:

FACTION KEYWORDS
Imperium, Adeptus Astartes, <Chapter>

They are Space Marines.

<Chapter> is a placeholder for a faction. Presumably something like Space Wolves, Blood Angels, etc, but per the FAQ, there are also new Primaris only chapters, so it's possible they do have their own faction as well. We just don't know.

**Hollow**

Gamgee wrote:
Excellent. Might have to grab both xenos if they have fluff. That way I can see if the DE got any cool new tidbits.

I thought you said you were going over to Age Of Sigmar? Weren't going to be moving over to 8th and even suggested you may rage-quit on several occasions. (In this very thread no less)

Really like the look of the the new dread, I have a soft spot for the old school washing machine and I like that they have built on that concept rather than making it too sleek and curvy. Looking forward to getting my grubby little mitts on the big rule book which is where lots of the new fluff is going to be.