40k New Edition Summary - 14th June 17: Lord Duncan paints Primaris in Gravis/non-codex SM focus

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**changemod**

I doubt we're going to see this, but if I were making Index Astartes I'd make up a whole bunch of blank chapter tactics without an assigned chapter name so as to allow for heavy customisation.

**jcd386**

Asherian Command wrote:
Lockark wrote:
Caederes wrote:
CragHack wrote:

The same way they killed all WHF characters. The same way Graham McNeill managed to kill Forrix and blow up Dies Irae just in one sentence/paragraph. It's easy. They already know how to do it.

Tactical roles? Both shoot bolters - Numarines do it better. Both have jump pack units - Numarines still do it better. Both have 'heavy support' - Numarines still (almost, until they have their heavy weapon sets released) still do it better. And the now the new Dread.

I'm definitely not stating they WILL do this, but everything's possible. At least in my opinion.

There's some huge gaping holes in your argument.

a) The Warhammer Fantasy universe was rebooted to solve a sales crisis. The WHFB range was unprofitable. Age of Sigmar was a reinvention driven by a need to make the WHFB range profitable. By contrast, 40K makes up for the lion's share of GW's sales. Based on what anyone with a pair of eyes can tell you - or go one step further and chat to someone in the know - Space Marines go a step further and make up for something ridiculous like over half of ALL of GW's sales across ALL ranges. While you could argue there's a financial motivation to replace the existing range with the new range to get everyone to buy the new models, the existing range will still sell like hot-cakes so there's no good reason to phase them out.

b) The Gathering Storm and the initial 8th Edition narrative has involved exactly how many major character deaths? 0? 1? There's no reason for them to reboot the setting unlike WHFB, so killing off all the existing characters makes no sense. Besides, you'd have to find a way to do it without killing off all the Chaos/Xenos characters too.

c) You are factually incorrect about the battlefield roles. Tactical Marines can be equipped with special and heavy weapons, while Tactical Marines of certain chapters can also take chainswords. They are supposed to be versatile. Intercessors - also boltgun wielders - have zero versatility because they can only wield boltguns. Inceptors =/= Assault Marines, a quick glance at the models will inform you of that. Inceptors are mobile heavy gun wielders. They are far closer to Tau Crisis Battlesuits than they are Space Marine Assault Squads. There's also a critical difference between Devastators and the Hellblasters - Devastators cannot *all* take Heavy Weapons, meaning some members of a squad still have to use boltguns. Hellblasters follow the old Legion doctrine and so are *all* equipped with Heavy Weapons. Big difference.

d) The new Dreadnought has knees and can logically walk. The old one cannot. Ergo, =/=.

Lockark wrote:

I'm just telling you, A Black Library Author has stated it's Cannon you can turn existing marines into Numarines. He straight up said to expect some characters to get the upgrade.

I get it, but I don't really see them going so far as to do that across all their existing FW and GW Space Marine character models.

But they did leave the door wide open to slowly start phasing old Marines out.

That'd be an assumption there friend. That's one assuming that is their entry strategy, and two that a Black Library Author Confirmed it is like saying "Oh but there were addendums from the non-designers." If it did not come directly from GW itself and not some outsourced author. We cannot make those assumptions as of yet. We have no idea if marines will be phased out. Hell, we don't even know what they are doing with Primaris Marines. Maybe they felt they needed to add more variety to armies and 40k lists. Because space marine lists are often quite similar to add more variety and character differences would be a welcome addition.

From all we know, there is a possibility that this just a new unit.

I would reserve those comments until after the entire edition and all lore pertaining is FULLY released before making such comments.

Also, getting rid of regular marines would likely be pretty terrible for the game as far as balance goes.

Honestly I'm not even sure that the Primaris will be that good for how much they cost. Typically MSU > elite units, especially now that deathstars are gone.

From what we've seen so far, the Primaris cost a lot, aren't that durable even with two wounds, and (though this might change once we get actual Primaris kits) don't have a lot of variety in weapon options. So i really don't see them replacing normal marines at all from a balance standpoint.

I think GW is just adding another set of options to the Space Marine armies / sell some more models.

**Asherian Command**

changemod wrote:
I doubt we're going to see this, but if I were making Index Astartes I'd make up a whole bunch of blank chapter tactics without an assigned chapter name so as to allow for heavy customisation.

You mean.... Fourth Edition Space Marine Codex? With the broken trait system? I remember when I could take entire tactical squads with apothecaries and true grit and could wield a bolter in one hand and a bolt pistol as well.

Fourth Edition Space Marines were the definition of Cheese.

Also, getting rid of regular marines would likely be pretty terrible for the game as far as balance goes.

Honestly, I'm not even sure that the Primaris will be that good for how much they cost. Typically MSU > elite units, especially now that death stars are gone.

From what we've seen so far, the Primaris cost a lot, aren't that durable even with two wounds, and (though this might change once we get actual Primaris kits) don't have a lot of variety in weapon options. So I really don't see them replacing normal marines at all from a balance standpoint.

I think GW is just adding another set of options to the Space Marine armies / sell some more models.

Essentially yes, it is what I thought as well when I first heard the news. Just more tools for the mixing pot to add more variation to player's armies and to the background mostly. Also to give a much-needed update to the lore that is both gripping and incredibly fascinating.

I don't think they will mostly due to game balance and game systems keep regular marines around, though they probably looked at how much scout squads are doing and might replace scout squads for all I know they won't and will just add the new Priamris Marines as a flat out an upgrade to regular marines. But many players might not like that option. For all we know this might be completely over our heads.

**Charax**

well, there's nothing inherently wrong with a trait system, just with the execution of it. I liked both the 4e traits and the old IG Doctrines systems, but there were combinations that were OP and brought the system into disrepute. That's no reason the concept cannot be revisited

**Crimson**

Seriously, just look at those pics of old marines next to the primaris. The old marines are done; 99% of customers will not buy them if they can get way cooler looking primaris.

**changemod**

Crimson wrote:
Seriously, just look at those pics of old marines next to the primaris. The old marines are done; 99% of customers will not buy them if they can get way cooler looking primaris.

This is an opinion. I look at the same pictures and consider the new ones to be the problem.

**endlesswaltz123**

It would be pretty cool though if the proportions of primaris are just scaled up normal marines (assuming they fit together in the same means). This would mean that 'theoretically' they could increase the size of the kits to match primaries proportions, such as the deathwatch and blam, primaries sized deathwatch marines.

That is probably not the case though.

**Rippy**

jcd386 wrote:
axisofentropy wrote:
I'm seeing a few peoples saying Primaris marines are their own faction. But the dataslates are unambiguous:

FACTION KEYWORDS
Imperium, Adeptus Astartes, <Chapter>

They are Space Marines.

<Chapter> is a placeholder for a faction. Presumably something like Space Wolves, Blood Angels, etc, but per the FAQ, there are also new Primaris only chapters, so it's possible they do have their own faction as well. We just don't know.

We do know they are not their own faction.
But you can still make an army consisting only of them.
Big difference.

**Asherian Command**

Crimson wrote:
Seriously, just look at those pics of old marines next to the primaris. The old marines are done; 99% of customers will not buy them if they can get way cooler looking primaris.

That again is based on assumption. Wheres your proof other than hearsay.

They are not done, and that is your opinion and not very conclusive to what we've seen in the past.

**Rippy**

Time to take the "are they phasing old marines out" to a new thread, we have buckets of news information, yet you still insist on gakking up this thread with off topic posting?

**GoatboyBeta**

The Primaris "stand alone" codex sounds more like its going to be codex Space Marines vol2. I wonder if any other models in the range will follow the Redemptor and be listed as Space Marine units instead of Primaris Space Marine units?

**Asherian Command**

I am happy though about the new dreadnought, like dang. It looks great.

**ImAGeek**

axisofentropy wrote:
I'm seeing a few peoples saying Primaris marines are their own faction. But the dataslates are unambiguous:

FACTION KEYWORDS
Imperium, Adeptus Astartes, <Chapter>

They are Space Marines.

They have their own codex, according to Charlo on B&C who spoke to the designers today.

**ClockworkZion**

So I'll messaged start this Facebook Round Up by covering some stuff I directly contacted the Warhammer 40,000 page about. Regular round-up follows those replies:

Replies by Warhammer 40,000
Q: Hey, Warhammer 40,000 I have a question about Power Levels. The Q&A that was released early on said that power levels are based on the unit with no upgrades, but there was a comment on this page that said they were based on the unit having all the upgrades they can take.

So which is it? I only ask because I'm watching people nerd fight on the internet over this issue and just want to give the argument the Emperor's Mercy. Thanks!
A: Hey [REDACTED] - a great question. We had a word with Simon from the rules team about this and he said:

"The Power Level represents an average somewhere in between the basic unit with the most basic loadout and the most tooled up unit of doom with all the upgrades. Basically, it's a mid-range average."

Q: Warhammer 40,000, could we have a break down how to deal with multi-damage weapons on multi-wound models, to include if any of the models have been wounded already?
A: We reckon a video on this might be the best thing to do. Watch the Warhammer TV page; we will see what we can do. e

Genestealer Cults
Q: Wow, awesome.

The most isteresting part is possibly the allies section.

Will Chaos have the possibility to do this too (aka Traitor Guard)? It would be most wellcome and pretty cool.

Amazing job keeping the hype up, as allways
A: Perhaps - but not that we have seen yet...

Q: Anything on the Militarum Tempestus? We where our own faction in 7th and with that gone (outside of the start collecting box), we don't know where we stand. Will we have this question addressed before 8th is released? All we have been told is that our "armies" are still playable. Are we guardsman in carapace armor or are we scions?
A: You are definitely Scions. They are not going any where. More updates when we can give them!

Q: YES HELLO FELLOW WORSHIPPERS OF THE *cough* four-armed EMPEROR MAY I INTRODUCE YOU TO MY GOOD MENTOR GENE, PATRIARCH OF OUR ORDO? HE HAS THE MOST ENCHANTING EYES, YOU WILL FIND. *clicks claws hungrily*
A:

Spoiler:

Morty Teaser
Q: Siiiiiicccck
A: Yes, he probably is and has been for a very long time...

Q:
A: WE KNOW, RITE?!

Rick Teaser (Actually it's the Primaris Dread Teaser)
Q: Please don't let all the ultramarines convert to primaris marines.... I would still like my normal smurfs to stay relevant in the game
A: Not at all; there will always be a place for every noble Son of Macragge. - Nick

Q: I've already signed over my wallet to the staff of GW Aberdeen to pay for 8th ed. Will you accept the parts of my soul I haven't given you yet and my next pay cheque?
A: Hmmm... we have a lot of souls already...

Q: The images on the live blog are too small to ready any of the text, just a heads up.
A: Great feedback - we will look at this

Q: ... is it just me or does anyone else think with each new dreadnought or terminator released, it takes away some of their identity. Makes them less then what they were?
A1: What if we told you that inside every Dreadnought is a Sly Marbo clone*?
A2: *I mean, that's not true. But... imagine.

Q1: Now that we have a leak of the core rules, when we getting the PDF!?
A1: On release day; the 17th June
Q2: but who KNOWS what can happen between now and then?!
A2: Haha! Who knows indeed...

Q: *cough*Timberwolf*cough*
A: Nasty cough you got there. I suspect Nurgle infection. Inquisition called.

**jcd386**

Rippy wrote:
jcd386 wrote:
axisofentropy wrote:
I'm seeing a few peoples saying Primaris marines are their own faction. But the dataslates are unambiguous:

FACTION KEYWORDS
Imperium, Adeptus Astartes, <Chapter>

They are Space Marines.

<Chapter> is a placeholder for a faction. Presumably something like Space Wolves, Blood Angels, etc, but per the FAQ, there are also new Primaris only chapters, so it's possible they do have their own faction as well. We just don't know.

We do know they are not their own faction.
But you can still make an army consisting only of them.
Big difference.

So if you do that, do you have to pick a <Chapter>? And if so, what chapters do you get to pick from? Do you think there will be any that don't exist outside of the Primaris Space Marines?

**vim_the_good**

You can pick any chapter and still have your army 100% nu marine. There is nothing to stop you.

**ClockworkZion**

Chapters are a subfaction of Astartes and will be the limiting factor for rules like Chapter Tactics (like preventing the Bark Star). They don't denote whole new factions just because they're subfactions. By that logic each of the vanilla chapters would be new factions just because they're not Ultramarines.

**Lockark**

jcd386 wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
Lockark wrote:
Caederes wrote:
CragHack wrote:

The same way they killed all WHF characters. The same way Graham McNeill managed to kill Forrix and blow up Dies Irae just in one sentence/paragraph. It's easy. They already know how to do it.

Tactical roles? Both shoot bolters - Numarines do it better. Both have jump pack units - Numarines still do it better. Both have 'heavy support' - Numarines still (almost, until they have their heavy weapon sets released) still do it better. And the now the new Dread.

I'm definitely not stating they WILL do this, but everything's possible. At least in my opinion.

There's some huge gaping holes in your argument.

a) The Warhammer Fantasy universe was rebooted to solve a sales crisis. The WHFB range was unprofitable. Age of Sigmar was a reinvention driven by a need to make the WHFB range profitable. By contrast, 40K makes up for the lion's share of GW's sales. Based on what anyone with a pair of eyes can tell you - or go one step further and chat to someone in the know - Space Marines go a step further and make up for something ridiculous like over half of ALL of GW's sales across ALL ranges. While you could argue there's a financial motivation to replace the existing range with the new range to get everyone to buy the new models, the existing range will still sell like hot-cakes so there's no good reason to phase them out.

b) The Gathering Storm and the initial 8th Edition narrative has involved exactly how many major character deaths? 0? 1? There's no reason for them to reboot the setting unlike WHFB, so killing off all the existing characters makes no sense. Besides, you'd have to find a way to do it without killing off all the Chaos/Xenos characters too.

c) You are factually incorrect about the battlefield roles. Tactical Marines can be equipped with special and heavy weapons, while Tactical Marines of certain chapters can also take chainswords. They are supposed to be versatile. Intercessors - also boltgun wielders - have zero versatility because they can only wield boltguns. Inceptors =/= Assault Marines, a quick glance at the models will inform you of that. Inceptors are mobile heavy gun wielders. They are far closer to Tau Crisis Battlesuits than they are Space Marine Assault Squads. There's also a critical difference between Devastators and the Hellblasters - Devastators cannot *all* take Heavy Weapons, meaning some members of a squad still have to use boltguns. Hellblasters follow the old Legion doctrine and so are *all* equipped with Heavy Weapons. Big difference.

d) The new Dreadnought has knees and can logically walk. The old one cannot. Ergo, =/=.

Lockark wrote:

I'm just telling you, A Black Library Author has stated it's Cannon you can turn existing marines into Numarines. He straight up said to expect some characters to get the upgrade.

I get it, but I don't really see them going so far as to do that across all their existing FW and GW Space Marine character models.

But they did leave the door wide open to slowly start phasing old Marines out.

That'd be an assumption there friend. That's one assuming that is their entry strategy, and two that a Black Library Author Confirmed it is like saying "Oh but there were addendums from the non-designers." If it did not come directly from GW itself and not some outsourced author. We cannot make those assumptions as of yet. We have no idea if marines will be phased out. Hell, we don't even know what they are doing with Primaris Marines. Maybe they felt they needed to add more variety to armies and 40k lists. Because space marine lists are often quite similar to add more variety and character differences would be a welcome addition.

From all we know, there is a possibility that this just a new unit.

I would reserve those comments until after the entire edition and all lore pertaining is FULLY released before making such comments.

Also, getting rid of regular marines would likely be pretty terrible for the game as far as balance goes.

Honestly I'm not even sure that the Primaris will be that good for how much they cost. Typically MSU > elite units, especially now that deathstars are gone.

From what we've seen so far, the Primaris cost a lot, aren't that durable even with two wounds, and (though this might change once we get actual Primaris kits) don't have a lot of variety in weapon options. So i really don't see them replacing normal marines at all from a balance standpoint.

I think GW is just adding another set of options to the Space Marine armies / sell some more models.

Navy phased out is the wrong word. They might not get squated but I could see the range beginning the slow March into legacy units.

**jcd386**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Chapters are a subfaction of Astartes and will be the limiting factor for rules like Chapter Tactics (like preventing the Bark Star). They don't denote whole new factions just because they're subfactions. By that logic each of the vanilla chapters would be new factions just because they're not Ultramarines.

Exactly. I only said it was possible that there would be new ones because of what GW said in the Primaris FAQ. "Most excitingly, Guilliman has founded some entirely new Chapters out of these new Space Marines"

**ClockworkZion**

jcd386 wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Chapters are a subfaction of Astartes and will be the limiting factor for rules like Chapter Tactics (like preventing the Bark Star). They don't denote whole new factions just because they're subfactions. By that logic each of the vanilla chapters would be new factions just because they're not Ultramarines.

Exactly. I only said it was possible that there would be new ones because of what GW said in the Primaris FAQ. "Most excitingly, Guilliman has founded some entirely new Chapters out of these new Space Marines"

Right, but those will likely follow existing successor chapter rules: pick your parent chapter, that's you're keyword.

**Gamgee**

Hollow wrote:
Gamgee wrote:
Excellent. Might have to grab both xenos if they have fluff. That way I can see if the DE got any cool new tidbits.

I thought you said you were going over to Age Of Sigmar? Weren't going to be moving over to 8th and even suggested you may rage-quit on several occasions. (In this very thread no less)

Really like the look of the the new dread, I have a soft spot for the old school washing machine and I like that they have built on that concept rather than making it too sleek and curvy. Looking forward to getting my grubby little mitts on the big rule book which is where lots of the new fluff is going to be.

My flgs is playing Tau again. So I have motivation to play again. Also the core rules have mostly been excellent. The fluff marines were the big problem but now that they can just be upgraded it removes that issue for me.

My only concern left is I hope the Tau are as fairly balanced as other factions and not toned down too much. Also hope for de buffs.

Edit
Still am planning on Kharadron army as well. Too cool to pass up. That and beastclaw.

**Cergorach**

Question: The new plasmagun overcharged removes the model on a to hit roll of 1, but the captain allows units to reroll all 1s to hit within 6". Does the 1 still count for removing the model? Or is it negated due to the reroll?

**John Prins**

Crimson wrote:
Seriously, just look at those pics of old marines next to the primaris. The old marines are done; 99% of customers will not buy them if they can get way cooler looking primaris.

As someone building a MkIV space marine army, I can safely say I'll be buying more MkIV marines. Because I like MkIV space marines.

**ClockworkZion**

Cergorach wrote:
Question: The new plasmagun overcharged removes the model on a to hit roll of 1, but the captain allows units to reroll all 1s to hit within 6". Does the 1 still count for removing the model? Or is it negated due to the reroll?

Pretty sure it works like it does now: unless you rolled a 1 the second time, it's negated.

**Mr_Rose**

Cergorach wrote:
Question: The new plasmagun overcharged removes the model on a to hit roll of 1, but the captain allows units to reroll all 1s to hit within 6". Does the 1 still count for removing the model? Or is it negated due to the reroll?

Negating the original roll is the entire point of a re-roll. The first roll never happened. Unless this is going to be the very first edition of any GW game I've ever heard of to handle them differently….

**Ravajaxe**

I guess it will negate the overheating effect as it is currently when you have a reroll to hit.

**Galas**

John Prins wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Seriously, just look at those pics of old marines next to the primaris. The old marines are done; 99% of customers will not buy them if they can get way cooler looking primaris.

As someone building a MkIV space marine army, I can safely say I'll be buying more MkIV marines. Because I like MkIV space marines.

I'm too going to buy normal marines to my Dark Angels army. Ok, they look very cartoonish now in comparison, but they are still pretty good models with a very good range and very good desings!

Spoiler:

**ClockworkZion**

Until we get chapter upgrade kits for Primaris (robes, tabards, ect) I'm not really jumping the gun to build any.

**lolman1c**

Galas wrote:
John Prins wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Seriously, just look at those pics of old marines next to the primaris. The old marines are done; 99% of customers will not buy them if they can get way cooler looking primaris.

As someone building a MkIV space marine army, I can safely say I'll be buying more MkIV marines. Because I like MkIV space marines.

I'm too going to buy normal marines to my Dark Angels army. Ok, they look very cartoonish now in comparison, but they are still pretty good models with a very good range and very good desings!

Spoiler:

And if I change of idea ... is very easy to fix...

I love that style. It's a table top game that represents cheesy sci_fi fantasy! It's why I love Orks and OOP marines.

**Ravajaxe**

Shooting phase rules question :

Did I missed something, or negative effect for firing through an intervening unit disappeared ?