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It's the opinion of a few guys and not a factual list of what is worth taking and what to burn on youtube.

Presumably (and hopefully) balance was not left to just them, so its not beyond belief they can think some stuff is good and some if bad. Again, that doesn't make it factual.

Plus it seems they got stuff wrong too, for example Chaos Daemon Daemon Prince *can't* hide like pansies because they have 10 wounds (you can only hide if you have less than 10).

It's also impossible to completely balance everything in a game with so many options. Some will lose out even without intending them to be weaker or less useful. Not unexpected.

 Rippy wrote:
Happy 1 million thread views dudes!

Spoiler:

I can vouch for 1,000,000 of those.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It's also impossible to completely balance everything in a game with so many options. Some will lose out even without intending them to be weaker or less useful. Not unexpected.

Agree 100%, its also important to understand that when dealing with things that have rules that change the way things operate, something may be balanced one minute, and completely bonkers when you sit it next to something else.

Lets just hope that the rumored community site where we can report things and vote on things that need review works. No one will be able to test and find the loopholes like the community at large.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
Shooting pistols in combat is just ok in practice, combat is usually over before they can be used.

Then why even have it as a rule?

Because that is an over statement.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
Deathguard one of the weaker armies for now
Crusader weakest LR variant. Godhammer probably best of three stock variants.
Servitors are terrible. Fenrisian wolves are bad.
Vindicator sucks
Executioner plasma is bad.
Riptides not so good. Don't usually take more than one.
Tervigon is just ok.
Zoanthropes meh.
T-fex not very good
Ynnari way better than straight Craftworld
Archons not that good
Tesserach Vault is too expensive
Possessed are meh.
Mutilators are not that good.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't their job to play-test all of this? Granted, the company making the game is always well within their rights to ignore whatever they want from outside sources, but if Reese et al. were play-testing these games then why is the above list a problem?

1) These are opinions.
2) A "meh" or "ok" doesn't equal bad.
3) Did you ignore the massive list of other things that were good?

Daedalus81 wrote:
1) These are opinions.

Of the people who were heavily involved in the play testing of these Index books. One might even go so far as to call it an expert opinion.

Daedalus81 wrote:
2) A "meh" or "ok" doesn't equal bad.

Didn't say it did.

Daedalus81 wrote:
3) Did you ignore the massive list of other things that were good?

No, but you clearly missed the point of why I culled all the other ones. These aren't the opinions of some guys who got the books early These are the guys that play tested these rules before they went to print. If they're saying that "Unit X is useless" then it means that someone somewhere along the line didn't do their jobs/what was asked of them.

 Rippy wrote:
Frontline Gaming Q&A Summary:
Tau overwatch is even better than 7th

Had to pick this out, but how can anybody take these guys seriously after this? Tau overwatch is objectively worse than in 7th.. You can no longer use ML's to improve BS during overwatch (its is ALWAYS on a 6 regardless of modifiers) and a unit can only fire supporting fire (i.e. overwatch when another unit is charged) once, instead of unlimited as in 7th. How is that better? I must be missing something here.

Units that came out as meh or useless could be in comparison to how over the top they were before, or due to the designers swinging the pendulumn too far in response to feedback. It wouldn't be the first time any company, much less GW, over nerfed something.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Units that came out as meh or useless could be in comparison to how oer the tipop they were before, or due to the designers swinging the pendulumn too far in response to feedback. It wouldn't be the first time any company, much less GW, over nerfed something.

That's the impression I got mostly. Almost nothing was called out as being explicitly bad (Servitors), all units had a function and some choices were just personal preference. I'm surprised they even answered which armies they thought were best, but it sounded like the gap between the top armies and what they considered the bottom armies was pretty small. Reece said he had trouble winning with straight Craftworld, but Frankie thought they were fine. Just gotta get used to the change from what they were in 7th, same with Daemon summoning.

Kharn is a friggen beast in CC! He could quite effectively wipe out a 10+ unit in 1 turn.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:
1) These are opinions.

Of the people who were heavily involved in the play testing of these Index books. One might even go so far as to call it an expert opinion.

Daedalus81 wrote:
2) A "meh" or "ok" doesn't equal bad.

Didn't say it did.

Daedalus81 wrote:
3) Did you ignore the massive list of other things that were good?

No, but you clearly missed the point of why I culled all the other ones. These aren't the opinions of some guys who got the books early These are the guys that play tested these rules before they went to print. If they're saying that "Unit X is useless" then it means that someone somewhere along the line didn't do their jobs/what was asked of them.

Indeed, it's one thing if it starts having problems out in the wild, but if the playtesting team has a laundry list of complaints then something has gone wildly wrong somewhere.

Of course the balance is better overall, this is a ground up overhaul of the system. If it wasn't roughly as balanced as 3rd edition it'd be pretty embarrassing.

MoD_Legion wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
Frontline Gaming Q&A Summary:
Tau overwatch is even better than 7th

...unit can only fire supporting fire (i.e. overwatch when another unit is charged) once, instead of unlimited as in 7th. How is that better? I must be missing something here.

You've got this wrong. In 7th a unit could only Overwatch once per turn & therefore could only ever Supporting Fire once a turn.

So really, it's worse in that on 4 hit markerlights make a difference, but it's better in that the unit being charged can fire Overwatch multiple times if their opponent fails multiple charges.

I wouldn't say it's better, though (but that's with 0 testing).
However, as I said, they've gotten stuff wrong (ala Chaos Daemon Daemon Prince not actually being able to hide like they said), so I wouldn't be surprised if they missed the bit where For The Greater Good stops them from firing overwatch again that turn.

This is way better than the 3E "rebalancing" of everything. 3E gutted everything, including special characters, pychic powers, super heavies, weapon options, Ork Ballistic skill. 3E left soo much of the 2E stuff unplayable that it was infuriating.

8E has gone out of it's way to make sure current models/units are still playable in some fashion.

That FAQ is full o crap really. One big issue is you do NOT start with war gear listed in the sheet for free for matched play. That is only for open, narrative, power level play. the rule is even under the matched play rules that says they have no wargear,

Marine is 13 points base. In the data sheet is says armed with a bolt gun, bolt pistol, frag and krack grenades. If you look in the points section all of those items are listed as 0 points so it works out nice.

Lets say you are using a Tech-Priest Dominus. His data sheet says he is armed with a Omnissian Axe, Volkite Blaster, Macrostubber. Base cost is 125. The Axe costs 0, the Volkite blaster costs 8, and the Macrostubber costs 2. So if you are playing matched (points) play his cost is really 135.

str00dles1 wrote:
That FAQ is full o crap really. One big issue is you do NOT start with war gear listed in the sheet for free for matched play. That is only for open, narrative, power level play. the rule is even under the matched play rules that says they have no wargear,

Marine is 13 points base. In the data sheet is says armed with a bolt gun, bolt pistol, frag and krack grenades. If you look in the points section all of those items are listed as 0 points so it works out nice.

Lets say you are using a Tech-Priest Dominus. His data sheet says he is armed with a Omnissian Axe, Volkite Blaster, Macrostubber. Base cost is 125. The Axe costs 0, the Volkite blaster costs 8, and the Macrostubber costs 2. So if you are playing matched (points) play his cost is really 135.

Must have missed something, but I thought they only said you don,t pay for wargear that you replace. So, for example, on Sternguard you don't pay for the bolter if you take a combi on a guy.

Oh and the Daemon Prince thing, I may have gotten Daemon/CSM version wrong, the stream had been going for 6 hours at that point and I was a little punchy.

(and I said hide like a little girl, not them )


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:
That FAQ is full o crap really. One big issue is you do NOT start with war gear listed in the sheet for free for matched play. That is only for open, narrative, power level play. the rule is even under the matched play rules that says they have no wargear,

Marine is 13 points base. In the data sheet is says armed with a bolt gun, bolt pistol, frag and krack grenades. If you look in the points section all of those items are listed as 0 points so it works out nice.

Lets say you are using a Tech-Priest Dominus. His data sheet says he is armed with a Omnissian Axe, Volkite Blaster, Macrostubber. Base cost is 125. The Axe costs 0, the Volkite blaster costs 8, and the Macrostubber costs 2. So if you are playing matched (points) play his cost is really 135.

Must have missed something, but I thought they only said you don,t pay for wargear that you replace. So, for example, on Sternguard you don't pay for the bolter if you take a combi on a guy.

This is correct.

 JohnU wrote:
Oh and the Daemon Prince thing, I may have gotten Daemon/CSM version wrong, the stream had been going for 6 hours at that point and I was a little punchy.

(and I said hide like a little girl, not them )

Heh, no worries. I didn't mean you got it wrong because you're bad or anything .
I wouldn't expect anyone to function at their best while streaming for that long!

Replay video is up for those that want the exact quotes from the source, or if you want to watch Reece's pomade dry out in real time

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/149230276

So when are they streaming games?

Yeah, I just played against tau yesteraday. With the ay pile in and consolidate works it is very easy to land one charge and then get like 4-5 units in combat if they are clustered up at all.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:
That FAQ is full o crap really. One big issue is you do NOT start with war gear listed in the sheet for free for matched play. That is only for open, narrative, power level play. the rule is even under the matched play rules that says they have no wargear,

Marine is 13 points base. In the data sheet is says armed with a bolt gun, bolt pistol, frag and krack grenades. If you look in the points section all of those items are listed as 0 points so it works out nice.

Lets say you are using a Tech-Priest Dominus. His data sheet says he is armed with a Omnissian Axe, Volkite Blaster, Macrostubber. Base cost is 125. The Axe costs 0, the Volkite blaster costs 8, and the Macrostubber costs 2. So if you are playing matched (points) play his cost is really 135.

Must have missed something, but I thought they only said you don,t pay for wargear that you replace. So, for example, on Sternguard you don't pay for the bolter if you take a combi on a guy.

"If you are playing a matched point game or a game that uses a points limit, you can use the following lists to determine the total point costs of your army. Simply add the total points costs of all your models, and the war gear they are equipped with to determine your armies total points value."

That's why some gear has a cost of 0. Your most common standard stuff you might not be paying points for, but most of the time you will be spending points for gear.

Also they did mention they had playtested FW units, but they didn't have those books with them so they'll go over those later.

str00dles1 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:
That FAQ is full o crap really. One big issue is you do NOT start with war gear listed in the sheet for free for matched play. That is only for open, narrative, power level play. the rule is even under the matched play rules that says they have no wargear,

Marine is 13 points base. In the data sheet is says armed with a bolt gun, bolt pistol, frag and krack grenades. If you look in the points section all of those items are listed as 0 points so it works out nice.

Lets say you are using a Tech-Priest Dominus. His data sheet says he is armed with a Omnissian Axe, Volkite Blaster, Macrostubber. Base cost is 125. The Axe costs 0, the Volkite blaster costs 8, and the Macrostubber costs 2. So if you are playing matched (points) play his cost is really 135.

Must have missed something, but I thought they only said you don,t pay for wargear that you replace. So, for example, on Sternguard you don't pay for the bolter if you take a combi on a guy.

"If you are playing a matched point game or a game that uses a points limit, you can use the following lists to determine the total point costs of your army. Simply add the total points costs of all your models, and the war gear they are equipped with to determine your armies total points value."

That's why some gear has a cost of 0. Your most common standard stuff you might not be paying points for, but most of the time you will be spending points for gear.

There is no contradiction here. Paying only the cost for the wargear you take is not contradictory to paying points for wargear.

The question was worded poorly and I didn't clarify it well, but at no point did they say or insinuate that you don't pay for any wargear.

Lol... the "Faction Focus: Imperial Agents" article is kind of pushing it really hard, claiming Sisters have "exciting new tools".

The new statlines are interesting, but that's really all they are. Still no new units, no new miniatures, barely any new lore, no new "stuff" in general.

 Melissia wrote:
Lol... the "Faction Focus: Imperial Agents" article is kind of pushing it really hard, claiming Sisters have "exciting new tools".

The new statlines are interesting, but that's really all they are. Still no new units, no new miniatures, barely any new lore, no new "stuff" in general.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/06/04/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-imperial-agents/

Indeed still its much better than it was a year or more ago, they show uop in the fluff alot / nice images - maybe, maybe we will get models - although sadly the new Marines make that less likely .

The focus itself was the usual mix - but I don't get why the stat lines/ data cards are not shown fully - only one you click on them.

Celstine remains fantastic but as she longer boosts Marines - just Adeptus Ministorum and Guard, that may make her less attractive to some players - but she still kicks ass and is hard to put down.

Half of the replies in FB regarding this focus are demands for plastic sisters while the rest are Monty Python references.

Having the chance for three rounds of combat with Penitent Engines in a single turn is neat trick.

The new stuff is how the units interact with each other. A single AoF is limiting but you can add more with the banners.
Celestine can also provide a 6+ invul to AM units.

I'm looking forward to using them in 8th.

Both of which really shouldn't surprise anyone.