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https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/08/17794gw-homepage-post-4/

TL/DR

Infantry models can shoot at different targets
wound chart released

I like the fact that wounding on 2+ is not that easy any more. But a Bolter wounds a dreadnaught on 5+ now.

Is anyone else worried that they're just pandering now? It seems like everything people have been demanding for years is coming to fruition, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, its just a worry in that whatever people ask they will receive, which is a terrible idea. Not everything people have been demanding is even close to a good idea. Some is great, but others are just bad ideas in general and I'm worried about seeing all of the terrible ones alongside the good.

Agreed, the split fire thing is nice (although yet another buff to shooting), but wont really effect much more than a few imperial units.

The to wound chart is huge, and really reduces the variance in dice a lot (assuming similar T and S values as now, things like T5 will be wounded on a 3+ by lascannons. and unless things end up having very high tougnesses available, ST 5-7 weaponry is going to be fairly effective against almost all current toughness ranges.

It looks like Bolters will wound a lot of things on 5+ now, assuming there's some consistency in the conversion between AV and Toughness for vehicles.

I think this change will be one of the major things that helps infantry in this edition. It will be much rarer to wound on 2+ now. Also, it potentially allows weapons with mid-range Strength values like Heavy Bolters to be more useful since there's not the cut-off at S6 for wounding T4 models on a 2+ any more.

Oh my god. They've taken the 10x10 chart that people have been whining about for as long as time and written it out in shortform the way it should have been done from the beginning.

HUZZAH. Praise editing.

Not as sure about splitting squads' firepower, it seems like a road to excessive bookkeeping/confusion if you're using more than about three squads (sort of like the game slowdown resulting from the "move everyone but the guy with the heavy weapon" rule). Makes the existence of the giant FOCs that require twenty-odd different units to play even more confusing.

At the danger of a storm of excrements starting to fly... "Mesa liken this'em".



No, really. The fact that 'split fire' seems to come standard now, allowing you to use the most appropriate weapon at the most suitable target, broadens the smile on my face to the size of the smile on a Great Unclean One. A relatively simple approach of five options to allow anything to hurt everything helps too.

This might have a rather interesting effect on army composition.
Instead of shoving all a unit's AT weapons in one unit so they could all fire at the target in the hopes to destroy it (but at the risk of losing all of your AT weapons at once)
Now AT weapons will likely be split up in multiple squads.
(With the exceptions of the short range melta squads obviously)

Also of note Strength 6 will be worse off against T 4 (Scatter Bikes getting another slight bopping with the nerf bat)
And Str 3 will be better against T 5 (Space marine bikes will have to be twice as worried about lasguns/autoguns)

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Oh my god. They've taken the 10x10 chart that people have been whining about for as long as time and written it out in shortform the way it should have been done from the beginning.

HUZZAH. Praise editing.

Not as sure about splitting squads' firepower, it seems like a road to excessive bookkeeping/confusion if you're using more than about three squads (sort of like the game slowdown resulting from the "move everyone but the guy with the heavy weapon" rule). Makes the existence of the giant FOCs that require twenty-odd different units to play even more confusing.

I don't think aiming at different targets will slow it down much. It doesn't in AoS. Most of the time you aim for the same unit anyway, sometimes you ain a weapon at someone else if it's better suited for them. Basically it just makes mixed Units more useful. Gone are the days where a guardsman Squad have to sit around as their lascannon shoots at a tank.
I like it personally.

Jbz` wrote:
This might have a rather interesting effect on army composition.
Instead of shoving all a unit's AT weapons in one unit so they could all fire at the target in the hopes to destroy it (but at the risk of losing all of your AT weapons at once)
Now AT weapons will likely be split up in multiple squads.
(With the exceptions of the short range melta squads obviously)

All my AT weapons are meltas anyway, but it still seems situational to me. For infantry squads who might be hunkered down on an objective instead of racing around the table to hunt down targets, mixed weapons might be best. For anything you want to be able to apply to a specific task you'll still want to take one type of weapon, obviously.

nordsturmking wrote:
I like the fact that wounding on 2+ is not that easy any more. But a Bolter wounds a dreadnaught on 5+ now.

Still needs about 110 shots to grease a Dread, assuming it doesn't have any other durability mechanics (regeneration, save-after-the-save, etc). You'll be wanting that meltagun, still.

Wow, that To-wound chart change is.....huge. Possibly the biggest change in we've seen yet?

Off-hand; (assuming no major stat changes)

Bolters doubled in effectiveness against T6-T7
Lasguns doubled against T5.

T4 to T5 bump does nothing against S3.
T5 to T6 to T7 bump does nothing against S4. Yes sir, your Talos/Hive tyrant/Carnifex/Bloodthirster/T7 creature is as hard to wound as a space marine bike when using bolters.
S6 and S7 vs T4 is a 3+ now, a nerf to scat lasers and other mid-range shooty stuff that spams volley fire power.
Lascannons need a 3+ to wound bikes, most monstrous creatures, the humble T7 dreadnaught, and even the Gorkanaught at T8.

What I hope this means is that we see a much larger variance in toughness values come out. Monstrous creatures ranging from T5-T10, vehicles from T5-T10...etc. With the changes to the wound chart, I mean, why not?

This will require a complete re-think of the entire weapon and toughness system on my part......damn.

This sounds so freaking great!

Stuff is going to be removed from the table much much faster!

The VERY interesting thing that wasn't explained was that infantry can make better use of cover. If infantry can gain cover from area terrain but bikes and above have to be behind something, that would be huge.

Screws my Eldar though. Not worried about nerfing my S6 but Eldar have very limited ability to multitask. Very few special weapons available. Leaders have them and maybe that is a bonus since they will all be able to split fire.

Pancakey wrote:
Stuff is going to be removed from the table much much faster!

OMG! A bolter can kill a Dreadnought in 400 shots! The sky is LITERALLY falling!

Wait, is this melee too?

 Tiberius501 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Oh my god. They've taken the 10x10 chart that people have been whining about for as long as time and written it out in shortform the way it should have been done from the beginning.

HUZZAH. Praise editing.

Not as sure about splitting squads' firepower, it seems like a road to excessive bookkeeping/confusion if you're using more than about three squads (sort of like the game slowdown resulting from the "move everyone but the guy with the heavy weapon" rule). Makes the existence of the giant FOCs that require twenty-odd different units to play even more confusing.

I don't think aiming at different targets will slow it down much. It doesn't in AoS. Most of the time you aim for the same unit anyway, sometimes you ain a weapon at someone else if it's better suited for them. Basically it just makes mixed Units more useful. Gone are the days where a guardsman Squad have to sit around as their lascannon shoots at a tank.
I like it personally.

Sort of? AoS has almost no mixed-weapon units and even then it doesn't scale very well into the size of the giant FOCs (the lists I've played at 2,000pts are 10-12-ish independent units and still seem annoyingly clunky by comparison to equivalently-sized armies in other games).

That said I don't think it'll cause more slowdown than gets saved by 4e/AoS-style wound allocation, if they stick to that, so hopefully it won't be much of an issue.

 ArmyC wrote:
Wait, is this melee too?

Almost certainly, yes.

SvT never differentiated between shooting and melee before, so why would it start doing so now?

 Luciferian wrote:

Pancakey wrote:
Stuff is going to be removed from the table much much faster!

OMG! A bolter can kill a Dreadnought in 400 shots! The sky is LITERALLY falling!

Relax man! Wait until you see the weapons that hit for 2d6 wounds!

 ArmyC wrote:
The VERY interesting thing that wasn't explained was that infantry can make better use of cover. If infantry can gain cover from area terrain but bikes and above have to be behind something, that would be huge.

Screws my Eldar though. Not worried about nerfing my S6 but Eldar have very limited ability to multitask. Very few special weapons available. Leaders have them and maybe that is a bonus since they will all be able to split fire.

Like the Guard and Sisters - Boltguns and Pulse rifles now only wound Eldar on a 3+.

We know already that some cover only works for some units - so trenches might be Infantry only or similar...

 Mr Morden wrote:


Like the Guard and Sisters - Boltguns and Pulse rifles now only wound Eldar on a 3+.

You mean people might QQ less about pulse rifles? Say it ain't so, Shoeless Joe!

Also, Sisters don't get mercilessly smeared by S5? I'll take it.

Pancakey wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:

Pancakey wrote:
Stuff is going to be removed from the table much much faster!

OMG! A bolter can kill a Dreadnought in 400 shots! The sky is LITERALLY falling!

Relax man! Wait until you see the weapons that hit for 2d6 wounds!

Unlikely. Biggest guns in AoS are doing d6 Wounds. If anything does 2d6 Wounds I'd expect it to be Destroyer weapons that roll a 6 to wound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Luciferian wrote:

Pancakey wrote:
Stuff is going to be removed from the table much much faster!

OMG! A bolter can kill a Dreadnought in 400 shots! The sky is LITERALLY falling!

I dub 8e The Gauss Edition. Gauss for everyone!

 Luciferian wrote:

Pancakey wrote:
Stuff is going to be removed from the table much much faster!

OMG! A bolter can kill a Dreadnought in 400 shots! The sky is LITERALLY falling!

Actually its closer to 110 to kill a dread with this wound table. 2/3 to hit, 1/3 to wound, 1/3 failed saves and 8 wounds.
So if they need to a tac squad have a decent chance to down a half health dread by shooting and then charging it (don't know what rapid fire restrictions will be on charging, but for the sake of this argument Im assuming that they can).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thing to note, is that this likely means that there wont be a restriction on who you can charged based upon what you shot at.
Or at the very least it wont be be very difficult to fire a pistol at your charge target while focusing fire somewhere else.

Wow, Lasguns will be wounding T5 targets on 5+ now and T6 or above on 6+. Guard got a huge buff

secretForge wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:

Pancakey wrote:
Stuff is going to be removed from the table much much faster!

OMG! A bolter can kill a Dreadnought in 400 shots! The sky is LITERALLY falling!

Actually its closer to 110 to kill a dread with this wound table. 2/3 to hit, 1/3 to wound, 1/3 failed saves and 8 wounds.
So if they need to a tac squad have a decent chance to down a half health dread by shooting and then charging it (don't know what rapid fire restrictions will be on charging, but for the sake of this argument Im assuming that they can).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thing to note, is that this likely means that there wont be a restriction on who you can charged based upon what you shot at.
Or at the very least it wont be be very difficult to fire a pistol at your charge target while focusing fire somewhere else.

Yeah you're right I worked it out after seeing the new table and it's 108.

 ArmyC wrote:
The VERY interesting thing that wasn't explained was that infantry can make better use of cover. If infantry can gain cover from area terrain but bikes and above have to be behind something, that would be huge.

Screws my Eldar though. Not worried about nerfing my S6 but Eldar have very limited ability to multitask. Very few special weapons available. Leaders have them and maybe that is a bonus since they will all be able to split fire.

I wouldn't worry about this, Craftworld and Dark Eldar have always been more about specialisation anyway, it's just that mid strength, high rate of fire weapons have become annoying jack of all trades weapons in 7th.

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Wow, Lasguns will be wounding T5 targets on 5+ now and T6 or above on 6+. Guard got a huge buff

Autocannons are in an interesting place especially

being 4+ against Dreads is cool
3+ against Heavy Infantry and Bikers
2+ against Light Infantry

Sadly 5+ against Mork, but I doubt you would even use for that purpose before

Oh wait, what about S8 Missiles?!
4+ vs Heavy Vehicles
3+ vs Dread
3+ vs Bikers and such
2+ vs Heavy Infantry!!!

(Heavy = T4, Light = T3)

If Missiles get d6 damage, I can see them seeing a rise in popularity.

 Talamare wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Wow, Lasguns will be wounding T5 targets on 5+ now and T6 or above on 6+. Guard got a huge buff

Autocannons are in an interesting place especially

being 4+ against Dreads is cool
3+ against Heavy Infantry and Bikers
2+ against Light Infantry

Sadly 5+ against Mork, but I doubt you would even use for that purpose before

Oh wait, what about S8 Missiles?!
4+ vs Heavy Vehicles
3+ vs Dread
3+ vs Bikers and such
2+ vs Heavy Infantry!!!

(Heavy = T4, Light = T3)

If Missiles get d6 damage, I can see them seeing a rise in popularity.

That's awesome as!
Pure speculation of course, but that'd be amazing. Missiles might only do d3 damage, but that's still awesome. I also wander if Autocannons will have a damage value, that could make them pretty devastating.

I cannot see missiles getting D6 damage, I expect them to be 2 modes as now one doing S8 D3 wounds, the other S4 and d3 hits or something similar. It is also possible they will not do extra wounds at all. As a general rule S got a little worse against lower toughnesses, but better against higher toughnesses. For instance a S6 gun used to wound T4 on a 2+, but now does so at a 3+. But used to wound T8 on a 6+ but now does it on a 5+. Depending on the common toughness values in the new edition Things like bolters got a decent buff in wounding high T models