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 godardc wrote:
Have you tried SWS ? I can't find a good reason to use them. Except with flamers, but they would still be 6 T3 5+ guys with short ranged weapons...
And I was thinking about a priest + 6 crusaders as a little "counter assault" force in my lines.

The big question is what regiment?

Catachan they can march up with Harker.

I primarily play Canadian and hide them behind los blocking terrain and have them lurk until it's time for a counter assault.

Identify the big ugly scary unit that is going to try to romp and stomp through your guardsmen and place a couple of SWS in it's path.

Wound it with a basilisk or appropriate unit, drop overlapping fields of fire

Triple demo charge or triple plasma it on 3+ to hit.

SWS hit hard and are fragile, but they have a small footprintand are easy to hide.. Their main weakness is other guard players with mortars.

I've had great luck with plasma SWS running Valhallans. Usually hide them behind tanks/terrain or keep them in transports till needed. They're there mainly there to bail me out of combat, but as every guard player knows you can never have enough plasma.

With them no longer being troops they lost a lot of their utility. Used to be I took a sniper sws with every platoon to sit on objectives, but now I'd rather just take a CCS with snipers instead, or ratlings.

If melta goes down in price/plasma goes up a bit like I'm kind of wondering might happen in CA, melta SWS could be a thing for some regiments. 2 of them fit in a Valkyrie/chimera, and they're far cheaper than CCS or vets. That or outflank them with Tallarn. The issue quickly becomes that while your SWS is cheap, the price to get them where they can fire means you're probably just better off buying (you guessed it) fire support tanks or stormtroopers armed with melta

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I've had great luck with plasma SWS running Valhallans. Usually hide them behind tanks/terrain or keep them in transports till needed. They're there mainly there to bail me out of combat, but as every guard player knows you can never have enough plasma.

With them no longer being troops they lost a lot of their utility. Used to be I took a sniper sws with every platoon to sit on objectives, but now I'd rather just take a CCS with snipers instead, or ratlings.

If melta goes down in price/plasma goes up a bit like I'm kind of wondering might happen in CA, melta SWS could be a thing for some regiments. 2 of them fit in a Valkyrie/chimera, and they're far cheaper than CCS or vets. That or outflank them with Tallarn. The issue quickly becomes that while your SWS is cheap, the price to get them where they can fire means you're probably just better off buying (you guessed it) fire support tanks or stormtroopers armed with melta

The best SWS is still Elysian. They can still deep strike 2 squads, 6 plasma, and a CC at 9". The main reason I take them however is because their mortar squads have a different data sheet allowing me to take another 3 HWS and I spent a lot of time building 6 of them.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Dynas wrote:
Its only ever catachan infantry melee, or the loyal 32 CP Cadian farm.

Sounds like someone needs to try JSJ Tallarn tanks on a table with a decent amount of terrain.

Can you explain this. I am assuming you mean move, shoot, then move again. The issue I find is that even with terrain, tanks are quite large targets and still able to be shot. Any other tips for Tallarn. I really like the fluff of these guys and the idea of having a mobile blitzkrieg style attack force seems cool. What about using chimeras or tauroxs as transports for dismont/shoot, move shenningans?

If there isn't enough terrain to block LOS to a tank then you need more terrain on the table.

 Peregrine wrote:
If there isn't enough terrain to block LOS to a tank then you need more terrain on the table.

Well, a Castellan can draw LOS through second floor windows, so if your tank is over 3" tall, that might happen.

Trying to choose regiments for my new Guard force. Could use some help, feels like I'm missing something.

I have a bunch of tanks and infantry. Was thinking of creating 2 detachments, Tallarn (for tanks) and Cadia (for Infantry.) But I know orders only apply to a single Regiment and there may be other synergies I'm losing.

Any advice on the best way to mix regiments (or should it be done?) If it helps, my Guard will mostly be played as allies to other forces.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Trying to choose regiments for my new Guard force. Could use some help, feels like I'm missing something.

I have a bunch of tanks and infantry. Was thinking of creating 2 detachments, Tallarn (for tanks) and Cadia (for Infantry.) But I know orders only apply to a single Regiment and there may be other synergies I'm losing.

Any advice on the best way to mix regiments (or should it be done?) If it helps, my Guard will mostly be played as allies to other forces.

Usually if I'm going to mix regiments I do it as a "pure" IG army, or at least with minimal allies. Then I try to keep them to a certain unit type, partially for fluff, partially because it makes the most sense list wise. It'd be an odd idea to take half your infantry as Tallarn and half as Cadian for example, since they can't order each other or benefit from each other's strats/relics.

So usually all my infantry are one force, and all my tanks another. Cadian and tallarns not a bad combo the way you word it. Catahan and cadians can also make good tank companies by the way. Don't forget if you go pure Cadian you can better use overlapping fields of fire and the relic of cadia, but Catachan and Tallarn tanks can be more mobile without losing their bonuses so it all boils down to what you want to do.

As anyone can, I'd welcome feedback on a 2-tier development plan for a little side Guard.

First, I'd bring in and test a Catachan battalion: Straken, Lord Commissar with Maul and Dagger of Tu'Sakh, 3x Infantry, Bullgryns with Mauls, and 2x Priests for somewhere just over 400 points.

If that works well enough, I'd bring in Harker, a Mortar HWS, a Lascannon HWS, and a Hydra Battery (just for fun, and I have a cool one). That takes it to around 660 points.

I'd run Straken and a wall of bodies with Priest up the middle, send the Lord Commissar and Bullgryns around to enemy's deployment zone, and use Harker and the big guns to supplement anti-infantry, anti-tank, and anti-air for the Sororitas army this one will flank.

This may not be super competitive, but it seems fun, and I have some fun classic models to pull it off with. Comments welcome!

Lascannon HWS dies in an instant. Providing that it is only AT in your list it will die turn one and leave you vulnerable for enemy armour.
Put LC in IS or add some LRBTs

Gnollu wrote:
Lascannon HWS dies in an instant. Providing that it is only AT in your list it will die turn one and leave you vulnerable for enemy armour.
Put LC in IS or add some LRBTs

I have okay AT from the Sororitas force, but long ranged AT is non-existent. I was thinking of these guys as finishers... if a Seraphim or Dominion squad leaves a few wounds on something big, 48" should allow me to reach out and finish the job.

Do full guard players bring more HWS to offset the squishiness, or just leave them at home?

LCs go in infantry squads or LRBTs, HWS get mortars and hide out of LOS. The issue is that LC HWTs are expensive, very threatening, and also very fragile. Turn 1 they die unless your opponent is a hopeless newbie.

came back to say the title of this thread is still really funny

Many thanks, Gnollu and Peregrin. Point well taken on the LC HWS vulnerability and the preference for Mortars.

Has anyone crunched the numbers on Harker + Hydra?

On cadianshock blog there was very good series of articles considerig our artillery. Every single piece was calculated including various buffs

Chapter approved rumors

Infantry squads going up to 5PPM. That's at least 30 points per battalion/60 points per brigade

Army wide -1 to hit outside 12" changed to +1 armor saves. That's potential great news for IG and other armies that don't have it.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Infantry squads going up to 5PPM. That's at least 30 points per battalion/60 points per brigade

What's your source on that? Only seen it as wishlisting and such. Not that I think it unlikely, I just want a source.

Well, the bad news if Guardsmen go up in points is that I'll have overbought guardsmen for my new army, because I'll have to cut 2 squads to make up the difference. The good news is that I'll have to paint 20 less guardsmen, so there's that I guess.

schadenfreude wrote:
Chapter approved rumors

Infantry squads going up to 5PPM. That's at least 30 points per battalion/60 points per brigade

Army wide -1 to hit outside 12" changed to +1 armor saves. That's potential great news for IG and other armies that don't have it.

Once again, people will freak out saying we're ruined without realizing we're getting a stealth buff I'll gladly pay a pt per guardsman to get rid of army wide -1 to hit abilities. Even pure guard will be paying at most maybe a 150pts for a straight up 16% increase in accuracy against many of our most difficult matchups. Cover we can deal with through application of plasma and high AP weapons, at least we can hit them now.

Trickstick wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Infantry squads going up to 5PPM. That's at least 30 points per battalion/60 points per brigade

What's your source on that? Only seen it as wishlisting and such. Not that I think it unlikely, I just want a source.

It's all but confirmed by GW themselves. Cultists are up to 5ppm, that alone proves it, since guardsmen are better than cultists. If that wasn't enough for you, GW outright stated that units that pop up in tournament lists more than they like will get increases. Considering infantry squads are probably the most taken unit in the game for every army but ironically pure IG, you'd be insane to have any doubts we're going to 5ppm.

No, GW has not put it in writing explicitly as "guardsmen are 5ppm" but everything theyve said and the pt increases on Boyz and cultists proves it. We need to accept that this is 100% happening and go ahead and start planning accordingly.

What I'm more concerned about are other potential changes. I would definitely expect a plasma price increase across the board, or other weapons to get major drops. Plasma interacts with the most regiments and even without regiment abilities is more consistently useful than all our other special weapons combined. I also wouldn't be surprised if mortars or HWS went up in price somehow since they've been slammed a lot as well. Odds are HWS would go to being 30pts base before weapons to go alongside the regular infantry Nerf and that will be plenty in GW eyes.

I'm also going to bet on a Company Commander price hike. I think it's safe to say at this point that company commanders could realistically get a 5-10 pts increase in an attempt to curb the annoying 32 without just nerfing guardsmen into Oblivion. GW will need to be careful though. Between the IG nerfs and rumored admech buffs, we could soon see the rise of the Omnissiah's efficient 17 instead for CP batteries.

Regardless of the nerfs/buffs we receive we can at least console ourselves with the fact we're getting 5 formations in the vigilus campaign book. Given the number and seeming variety of formations we're getting there's decent odds we get at least one or two useful formations.Personally I'm hoping that that Assault company does something for chimera's, I'd like to be able to field them without feeling like i'm gimping myself.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
t's all but confirmed by GW themselves. Cultists are up to 5ppm, that alone proves it, since guardsmen are better than cultists. If that wasn't enough for you, GW outright stated that units that pop up in tournament lists more than they like will get increases. Considering infantry squads are probably the most taken unit in the game for every army but ironically pure IG, you'd be insane to have any doubts we're going to 5ppm.

I'm sure they probably will go to 5 ppm, but I have yet to see it in any of the leak and rumour sources that have been available. It just seems a bit odd that sure a large change has been omitted from leaks, as you would have thought it would be something that people would look up if they had the chance. I was mainly wondering if there was some leak source that I had missed.

I would like 5pt Guard as it would give conscripts a reason to exist again. Being the same cost makes them mostly pointless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm looking forward to using different detachments as different regiment types. An infantry brigade and an armoured spearhead would be thematic but also get some extra rules.

 MacPhail wrote:
As anyone can, I'd welcome feedback on a 2-tier development plan for a little side Guard.

First, I'd bring in and test a Catachan battalion: Straken, Lord Commissar with Maul and Dagger of Tu'Sakh, 3x Infantry, Bullgryns with Mauls, and 2x Priests for somewhere just over 400 points.

If that works well enough, I'd bring in Harker, a Mortar HWS, a Lascannon HWS, and a Hydra Battery (just for fun, and I have a cool one). That takes it to around 660 points.

I'd run Straken and a wall of bodies with Priest up the middle, send the Lord Commissar and Bullgryns around to enemy's deployment zone, and use Harker and the big guns to supplement anti-infantry, anti-tank, and anti-air for the Sororitas army this one will flank.

This may not be super competitive, but it seems fun, and I have some fun classic models to pull it off with. Comments welcome!

Dagger of Tu'sakh cannot be taken on a commissar
faq Page 138 – The Dagger of Tu’Sakh
Add the following sentence at the start of the rules text:
‘Infantry Officer model only.

also only ever use a powersword in a commissar its better

the second priest is overkill in only a battallion and while they stack with straken they dont stack with each other

 Trickstick wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
t's all but confirmed by GW themselves. Cultists are up to 5ppm, that alone proves it, since guardsmen are better than cultists. If that wasn't enough for you, GW outright stated that units that pop up in tournament lists more than they like will get increases. Considering infantry squads are probably the most taken unit in the game for every army but ironically pure IG, you'd be insane to have any doubts we're going to 5ppm.

I'm sure they probably will go to 5 ppm, but I have yet to see it in any of the leak and rumour sources that have been available. It just seems a bit odd that sure a large change has been omitted from leaks, as you would have thought it would be something that people would look up if they had the chance. I was mainly wondering if there was some leak source that I had missed.

I would like 5pt Guard as it would give conscripts a reason to exist again. Being the same cost makes them mostly pointless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm looking forward to using different detachments as different regiment types. An infantry brigade and an armoured spearhead would be thematic but also get some extra rules.

Conscripts will stay pretty bad regardless of how much regular infantry cost at this point. The quadruple nerf to Commissars, Conscript unit size, the order nerf, and being pushed up 4ppm has made them so impotent that the only time I would ever consider taking them is if I ran the Valhallan doctrine with the Pietrov's Mk45 relic so that they can be bubblewrap for tanks, and nothing else.

At present I've just been using the 3 infantry squads I have to take for the troop tax as make-shift bubblewrap. That's all they're good for anymore, since HWT's are so much less efficient and effective than pooling your firepower into Basilisks/Russes, mechanised is dead, only one of the special weapons is cost-effective for them, and you have to seriously invest pts and think about how to make orders/leadership work to make them formidable.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Conscripts will stay pretty bad regardless of how much regular infantry cost at this point. The quadruple nerf to Commissars, Conscript unit size, the order nerf, and being pushed up 4ppm has made them so impotent that the only time I would ever consider taking them is if I ran the Valhallan doctrine with the Pietrov's Mk45 relic so that they can be bubblewrap for tanks, and nothing else.

At present I've just been using the 3 infantry squads I have to take for the troop tax as make-shift bubblewrap. That's all they're good for anymore, since HWT's are so much less efficient and effective than pooling your firepower into Basilisks/Russes, mechanised is dead, only one of the special weapons is cost-effective for them, and you have to seriously invest pts and think about how to make orders/leadership work to make them formidable.

You can also take a Draconian Disciplinarian Lord Commissar, which keeps conscripts on the board. Now that you don't need to take grand strategist all the time, it can work.

I quite like taking 6 Tallarn infantry to make a brigade. Give them plas/bolter and they can run around being useful, or screen advancing tanks as necessary. I also don't think mech is as dead as you claim, although I haven't tried it yet. Armageddon seem pretty good with their 18" rapid fire, and their vehicles are pretty tough against the many -1ap weapons out there.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Conscripts will stay pretty bad regardless of how much regular infantry cost at this point. The quadruple nerf to Commissars, Conscript unit size, the order nerf, and being pushed up 4ppm has made them so impotent that the only time I would ever consider taking them is if I ran the Valhallan doctrine with the Pietrov's Mk45 relic so that they can be bubblewrap for tanks, and nothing else.

At present I've just been using the 3 infantry squads I have to take for the troop tax as make-shift bubblewrap. That's all they're good for anymore, since HWT's are so much less efficient and effective than pooling your firepower into Basilisks/Russes, mechanised is dead, only one of the special weapons is cost-effective for them, and you have to seriously invest pts and think about how to make orders/leadership work to make them formidable.

You can also take a Draconian Disciplinarian Lord Commissar, which keeps conscripts on the board. Now that you don't need to take grand strategist all the time, it can work.

I quite like taking 6 Tallarn infantry to make a brigade. Give them plas/bolter and they can run around being useful, or screen advancing tanks as necessary. I also don't think mech is as dead as you claim, although I haven't tried it yet. Armageddon seem pretty good with their 18" rapid fire, and their vehicles are pretty tough against the many -1ap weapons out there.

Didn't know about the Draconian Disciplinarian effect. Will have to try that sometime.

Nothing wrong with taking 6 infantry squads for the brigade, I'd say that's worth it for the CP and extra bubblewrap. I've only run a list like that once, my problem with it is more from an enjoyment perspective, in that with each squad being independent I get a headache keeping track of who belongs in each squad. Would have to get some more guardsmen and sort out squad markings, which I don't really have time for at the moment.

Vets and at a stretch maybe Scions are the only things worth mechanizing, but not en masse, just keeping a pair of MechVet or MechScion units in reserve. Transports got better at a bunch of things. Thing is, the high cost of them in an edition where its so important to be capable of timely application of a lot of high strength, high AP firepower against deep strikers and other nasty units means its not really viable to run pure/semi-pure mechanized.

Similarly, I would love to invest in and try a Scion airborne list that uses Valkyrie insertion to take objectives, but my gut instinct is that ultimately the fact that Valkyries offer so little firepower and the fact Scions can't leverage enough on their own is what would cripple that idea.

Transports (other than Valkyries) are definitely dead. They don't give any significant mobility increase, you can't fire out of them and use them as a bunker for your squishy troops, they don't add much firepower at BS 5+, and they cost as much as buying an entire additional squad. You're almost always going to be better off buying that additional squad and bringing a couple extra officers to issue "move, move, move" when you need another 6" of one-shot movement distance.

6 basic plasma infantry chimeras can make a lovely core for a mech list. The thing is that such a mech list has much more manoeuvrability than a standard Guard list, which really is the key to getting it to work. You can get one for under 150 points, which isn't bad compared to most other transport units in the game. Triple bolter chimeras are decent firepower.

You also have the meta-busting aspect. If no one goes mech anymore, going mech becomes more feasible.

Chimeras don't increase your threat range enough to matter though. Before you could move 12 then disembark and rapid fire. Now, you cant disembark after moving, so your infantry threat range isn't increased at all. If you wanna move faster and not shoot, just use move move move and run fast, and use the 100 points you saved on the chimera to buy 2 more infantry squads.

 Horst wrote:
Chimeras don't increase your threat range enough to matter though. Before you could move 12 then disembark and rapid fire. Now, you cant disembark after moving, so your infantry threat range isn't increased at all. If you wanna move faster and not shoot, just use move move move and run fast, and use the 100 points you saved on the chimera to buy 2 more infantry squads.

Exactly. And you can't fire from inside the Chimera either. So you have a choice between:

Move 12+D6", disembark 3", move 6", for a total of 21+D6" (average 24.5").

or

Move 6+D6", move move move 6+D6", move 6", for a total of 18+2D6" (average 25").

You're paying a ton of points to get the same movement distance (with a bit less dice variability) when you could just buy a deep striking storm trooper squad in addition to the infantry squad.

5PPM guardsmen are as official as most of the other rumors. All of the leak sites are reporting it and it would be hugely unpopular to make cultists cost more than guardsman.

I have not seen any rumors of company commanders going up in price. Most players who include guard for cheap CP treat them like a tax and make poor use of orders exc. Plus the rule of 3 already hits them hard

On big mystery is if veterans will get nerfed, I have seen no rumors about it so they may become very viable if they stay at 6 PPM. Going from 5 to 6 PPM isn't bad for 3+ BS and crack grenades. The BS3 cost of plasma and melta can make them really expensive, but they don't have to buy them. Lascannon and sniper rifles cost the same at bs3, and a squad of 9 flashlights with krak grenades may actually see play